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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercy View Post
    If you are Fi leading, then you are Te seeking or accepting. You long for help in this area, and expression of this weak function gives you the confidence to express it yourself. It is the leading strength of your dual. Duality and relationships alike are what defines socionics in terms of practical application. If you feel as though the ESTj is not your dual, then either your understanding of duality is off, your understanding of the ESTj is off or easily misinformed by MBTI stereotypes, or you are not an EII. There is theoretically no exception for a fault, since socionics works as a whole. Relations are the tools of socionics. No person is less human than you.
    I haven't really looked into the duality part of this. I'm trying to define myself, not my relationships.

    And I've never claimed anyone was less human than myself?

  2. #22
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    Take this description as an example of an LII's role function:

    The LII is acutely aware of social conventions, such as saying "please" and "thank you", and expends much effort to conform to these rules to maintain the status of a "polite" person. But he tends to overdo the conventions themselves, as opposed to the relationships they are supposed to establish, and so ends up stepping on other people's toes (violating some less easily definable convention which he would never really want to conform to anyways). He prefers an easy-going environment where such conventions don't exist in the first place. When in a heated argument, an LII can alienate others by his natural tendency to hold and defend strong opinions (Ti).
    If asked to express a unique, personal sentiment, such as a favorite color or football team, the LII may find difficulty choosing if there is no "obvious" answer. He often feels like he has no real personal, subjective feelings at all, and usually has to make a conscious decision where other types could easily supply an instinctive reaction.
    The LII also is very sensitive about how other people see him, feeling depressed if he has affections that are not returned. For this reason, he tends to avoid expressing signals that show interest in certain people (as opposed to signals about his general mood and demeanor, which he feels to be much more natural), but of course it just aggravates his loneliness, instead of relieving it.

    One LII plays Fi as a social convention, but doesn't value it, doesn't urge to express it. He is exuding his Fe tendencies in place of understanding Fi. It's just an outer layer.

  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercy View Post
    Take this description as an example of an LII's role function:

    The LII is acutely aware of social conventions, such as saying "please" and "thank you", and expends much effort to conform to these rules to maintain the status of a "polite" person. But he tends to overdo the conventions themselves, as opposed to the relationships they are supposed to establish, and so ends up stepping on other people's toes (violating some less easily definable convention which he would never really want to conform to anyways). He prefers an easy-going environment where such conventions don't exist in the first place. When in a heated argument, an LII can alienate others by his natural tendency to hold and defend strong opinions (Ti).
    If asked to express a unique, personal sentiment, such as a favorite color or football team, the LII may find difficulty choosing if there is no "obvious" answer. He often feels like he has no real personal, subjective feelings at all, and usually has to make a conscious decision where other types could easily supply an instinctive reaction.
    The LII also is very sensitive about how other people see him, feeling depressed if he has affections that are not returned. For this reason, he tends to avoid expressing signals that show interest in certain people (as opposed to signals about his general mood and demeanor, which he feels to be much more natural), but of course it just aggravates his loneliness, instead of relieving it.

    One LII plays Fi as a social convention, but doesn't value it, doesn't urge to express it. He is exuding his Fe tendencies in place of understanding Fi. It's just an outer layer.
    You know... I do kind of relate to this. When I first came here, I used to put a lot of time into saying things formally, welcoming new members with a standard form response, making sure I was following all the rules, addressing administrators with the proper respect, putting topics in the proper subforum, etc. But over time, as I found people didn't care as much about that here, I became more casual, open, and focused on discussing topics themselves.

    My avatar at the time was C3-P0, because that was descriptive of how I felt worrying about such things all the time.

    In public, I'm still always being really formal and careful to make sure I'm seen as morally upright. Here, I really only get formal when I realize I might have offended someone, or am expressing something that might potentially be viewed as offensive. I tend to apologize profusely if someone displays offense or anger for no apparent reason, because I assume I just failed to perceive something important and made a "faux pas."

    That's the side of the LII that I relate to. The side I don't relate as much to, is how they aren't aware of their emotions. I'm actually rather aware of feeling fear, anger, like and dislike, etc.

  4. #24
    Senior Member snegledmaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercy View Post
    Fi is inertial; many emotions are inside such a person, but they do not go outwards, and rather stay “conserved”. Such people are very passionate in evaluating other people, but from outside they seem to be “emotionless”, smiling just as much as etiquette requires. They are good spectators of relations: in a small collective, they very quickly feel who has which relations with whom. They can work with people – as lawyers, pedagogues, etc. However, being so attentive to people's relations, they do not like, even more, they are afraid of “intellectual initiative”, do not like arguing, because it can “break” or just significantly change relations with other people.
    This is not really correct. I'd say it focuses too much on the delta flavor of Fi. I could easily see a gamma being very intense and severe with Fi, breaking, significantly changing relationships. One common themes of gamma, often expressed by people who are gamma, is vigilanteism, revenge. And I would not really call Fi emotional. I like the socionics conception of it better, ethics. Because I would say a person who has many emotions inside, but they do not go outwards, and rather stay “conserved”, is more a description of creative Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Ah, I kind of thought they were for different things. Most people insist that it's the same thing, though.
    Well be wary as they are not. Augusta significantly changed the concepts devised by jung while MBTI more or less left them intact. For example, jungian concept of Ni is Ni + Fe in socionics. It does not describe Ni + Te in socionics.


    Okay, that's easy enough.

    Socionics Fe just seems goofy and shallow, and mostly about expressing your own feelings and being in the moment. Like the kids I used to dislike in High School. It reminds me of what I disliked about MBTI Se. Fi is more the "political correctness" and concern with propriety thing in Socionics, while in MBTI Fe had that role.
    Here's a conception of the ethical elements (Among others). Could you comment on that?

    Now, with MBTI Te, it's just all about achieving goals efficiently and making people work together, which is nice but not a priority. Socionics Te includes that, but throws in more things like citing sources and judging ability/intelligence. Ti is still pretty much Ti. The added weight to Te makes it look more appealing, but I'm still drawn to the precision of Ti as well.
    Could you comment zhe same thing based on the infromation presented in the link above?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, that's really hard to tell. There are some emotions I would only share with people I knew well. But there are other emotions I "fake" around people I don't trust, but if I knew them I would criticize them.

    For instance, I once felt rather annoyed with someone because they referred to a PM as an e-mail, and that was technically inaccurate. Also, I often like to correct people's grammar if it's off. Finally, I got really annoyed when someone told someone else about the J/P switch for Introverts in Socionics/MBTI conversion being an explaination for why their J/P didn't match up, and I insisted on pointing out that the switch doesn't always work, and that you can't actually convert the types. I was confused when they justified by saying their explanation was reasonable "at the level of the conversation." I couldn't understand how that justified dissiminating incorrect information.

    In MBTI, I'm pretty sure that would be Ti. What about Socionics?
    Disseminating incorrect information is, in a roundabout manner, an expression of valued Ti/Fe. That is, preferring Fe over Te. Fe seeks to influence peoples emotions. Information is a way to do this. You say what will please somebody, have the desired impact. With Fe are often associated structuring words and sentences in a certain manner to produce a certain effect like say literature, poetry, little lies not to hurt people and so on. Or condensed, ignoring/manipulating the informational content of the information to ones own end. Fe couples are often characterized by games consisting of this, the are distrustful of what the other says, they think the other is trying to trick them, they are themselves, and so on. Fe people tell tales for the effect, not informational content. A good tale is more important then the information being presented.

    Te people are a contrast to this with a strong implicit focus on the informational content of information. Te people stop people in the middle of jokes to correct them on a piece of information. Generally people tend to percieve them as storehouses and reliable sources of pieces of information. They would never propagate a piece of information if they had suspicions over it. Or would at least make their worries clear. They also do not suffer from the set in stone nor reliable authority mentality with their information. That is, their focus is on the information itself, who presents it is irrelevant as are people's convictions about it.

  5. #25
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Well be wary as they are not. Augusta significantly changed the concepts devised by jung while MBTI more or less left them intact. For example, jungian concept of Ni is Ni + Fe in socionics. It does not describe Ni + Te in socionics.
    Okay, got it.
    Here's a conception of the ethical elements (Among others). Could you comment on that?

    Could you comment zhe same thing based on the infromation presented in the link above?
    All that really did was confuse me more. Sigh, forget it. Socionics is too complicated for me.

    Disseminating incorrect information is, in a roundabout manner, an expression of valued Ti/Fe. That is, preferring Fe over Te. Fe seeks to influence peoples emotions. Information is a way to do this. You say what will please somebody, have the desired impact. With Fe are often associated structuring words and sentences in a certain manner to produce a certain effect like say literature, poetry, little lies not to hurt people and so on. Or condensed, ignoring/manipulating the informational content of the information to ones own end. Fe couples are often characterized by games consisting of this, the are distrustful of what the other says, they think the other is trying to trick them, they are themselves, and so on. Fe people tell tales for the effect, not informational content. A good tale is more important then the information being presented.

    Te people are a contrast to this with a strong implicit focus on the informational content of information. Te people stop people in the middle of jokes to correct them on a piece of information. Generally people tend to percieve them as storehouses and reliable sources of pieces of information. They would never propagate a piece of information if they had suspicions over it. Or would at least make their worries clear. They also do not suffer from the set in stone nor reliable authority mentality with their information. That is, their focus is on the information itself, who presents it is irrelevant as are people's convictions about it.
    Yeah... the Te thing sounds more like me in a Socionics context from what you said. But from that link above... it's not quite as clear. I suppose I could use Te more, but I'm capable of seeing more than what it's implied Te is capable of in the way information is related to reality.

  6. #26
    Senior Member snegledmaca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    All that really did was confuse me more. Sigh, forget it. Socionics is too complicated for me.


    Yeah... the Te thing sounds more like me in a Socionics context from what you said. But from that link above... it's not quite as clear.
    What about this? Any better or just as gibberish as the first link?

    I suppose I could use Te more, but I'm capable of seeing more than what it's implied Te is capable of in the way information is related to reality.
    I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

    Based on my description would you say you value more Fe or Te people?

  7. #27
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    What about this? Any better or just as gibberish as the first link?

    I don't really understand what you are trying to say here.

    Based on my description would you say you value more Fe or Te people?
    Much better.

    This pretty much convinces me of Te. I can see Ti as well, but Te makes more sense.

    Looks like my original EII suspicion is confirmed.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm trying to define myself, not my relationships.
    No, I should clarify. Your relationships define yourself, and this phenomenon has nothing to do with how independent of a person you are. You are objectively judged by your similarities and differences in values, strengths, vulnerabilities, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    This is not really correct. I'd say it focuses too much on the delta flavor of Fi.
    Sorry about that. I don't really have provisions of the best links online. My understanding comes from interacting with the forum members and researching from all possible sources. However EIIs are Delta.

  9. #29
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercy View Post
    No, I should clarify. Your relationships define yourself, and this phenomenon has nothing to do with how independent of a person you are. You are objectively judged by your similarities and differences in values, strengths, vulnerabilities, etc.
    I don't really associate with enough people to know how similar or different I am from them in these areas, or what kind of relationships I have to them.

    I spend most of my time online looking things up. I don't really... interact with people. Except when I want to buy something, or I'm turning in an assignment to a teacher, etc.

  10. #30
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    Well I only assume you'd have some interest in relations if you're regarding socionics. Socionics is more objective than MBTI and deals with relations as the explanation of one's type. Is there something I'm not saying that could more easily clarify that?

    You're referring to a definition of Fi yes, but that definition comes from implication of thought process, which is compared to other thought processes. It's only logical to assume relationships exist in tandem with personality.

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