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Thread: The Untyped

  1. #111
    Member Zenihita's Avatar
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    Hi Ruthie! Can I still suggest a different option?
    I think you could actually be INFP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    OK, so it's been about six months since I first showed up and solicited a free typing. In that time, I've thought I was a lot of different things, but the past couple of months I've been pretty certain of being ISTJ. I'm about ready to consider it sold and add it as my type, but I still have a few obstacles to get past before making it official. The bullet-pointed list on page 1 is still pretty accurate, but I wanted to zero in specifically on the pro/con SJ arguments for more accuracy:

    Why I think I'm an SJ:

    -Excellent ability to memorize random things: dates, names, facts; I have a weird obsession with reference books of all kinds.
    -Extreme homesickness.
    -Prefer the past to the present or future.
    -Love history and all social sciences.
    -Dislike change.
    -Lack adventure streak. not all Ps are adrenalin junkies, you have to remember that there are a lot of stereotypes and exaggerations out there.
    -Feel comfortable with tradition and routines.
    -Not particularly rebellious.
    -Am obsessed with the concept of loyalty.
    -Strong sense of nostalgia.

    And, the obstacles...

    -Have always been disorganized. Was so disorganized as a student that I was placed in a special 1-day class for right-brained thinkers.
    -Love theories and concepts, and am completely comfortable in that realm. I'd say you have to be N then, no S I have ever met was that "well-balanced". And daydreaming usually seems quite stupid to them especially STs.
    -Daydream a lot.
    -Am oblivious to my environment.
    -Worst job I ever had was as a scheduler. I screwed up all the time and was almost fired. Come on! An SJ would be perfect for that job, and that is not a stereotype. They could have found it boring, but they would have been really good at it.
    -No attention to detail.
    -Major lazy streak.
    -Always idealize belonging to groups (SJ), but never actually join anything. that's not necessarily SJ, that's just Si.
    -Hate making plans.
    -Never stress about little things that need to be done.

    So, looking over that list, any reason to doubt I'm an SJ? Anyone who has followed any of my previous posts, feel free to chime in on any observations from there as well. ISFJ is also a possibility, and I suppose ISTP, INTJ and even ENTP are still on the table as well. Any thoughts?

    [This should probably now be moved to What's My Type...]
    I could relate to most of your statements here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    I'd like the thread to be moved to What's My Type, but I added this post here for continuity's sake - an addition to the original. Kind of some SJ symbolism, I guess.

    Yeah, socializing drains me - I've pretty much concluded I'm introverted even though there are times when you can't pay me enough to shut up. Given the choice, I'd spend quite a bit of time alone.

    The Fe vs. Fi thing has never been clear to me. Objectively, I sometimes think Fi is useless because values without context are untrustworthy*. But I also am terrible at extroverting feeling. I'm just not the world's warmest person. I am 100% loyal to the people I love, and I would do anything to support them, but apparently I fail at empathy.

    Hard to explain how I view my judging process. It's not quite Thinking and it's not quite Feeling. It's more like holding an opinion or choosing a side. Then I make a logical argument for that side. It's not necessarily "rational" because opinions are subjective. But it's also not really "emotional" because it's more of a thought process than a feeling process. It's just subjective thinking.

    *I'm referring to myself here... obviously not saying Fi is "useless" for everyone.
    I think you're just struggling with choice of words in the descriptions, trying to dissect them to understand what exactly they mean, and because of that might come to the wrong conclusions, because those who wrote them could actually be implying different things, or maybe just didn't choose the best wording. I think that was what had mislead me before. I used to be quite sure I was a very strong T, because I couldn't relate to all those NF sugary descriptions.
    Values without context are untrustworthy - definitely.
    "But it's also not really "emotional" because it's more of a thought process than a feeling process." That's what I was talking about, it's not that Feelers *feel* instead of thinking, it's just that our thinking is often concerned with feelings (feelings and emotions are also very different things mind you).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Just to expand:

    1. I have an opinion on most things, and offer it readily. I'm also decisive and like predictability. (Je)
    2. I hate planning, am somewhat disorganized, and I'm a procrastinator. (Pe)

    That's what I mean by the way I think vs. the way I act. Is that more in keeping with extroverting the perceiving function?
    Well, J can procrastinate too, that's for sure, but they are not likely to do that most of the time, especially not ISJs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Predictability = routine, things happening the way I'm used to them happening, peace, comfort, inertia, lack of change.

    Planning = effort, adding things to the schedule, details, the "have-to" standing in the way of comfort.

    Like I said, there's a big laziness streak in my action. Knowing objectively that planning leads to predictability does nothing to make me enjoy the planning stage more. This is a major overstatement, but I just want today to be like yesterday and I don't even want to think about tomorrow. Obviously, I'm a great deal more practical than that impulse, but in terms of my preference, it's not all that inaccurate. It's also important to mention that I wasn't raised with a very strong work ethic, and in my family, I might even be the most organized and hard-working... but that's not saying much.
    That's doesn't sound just like lazyness to me. I like predictability the way you describe it as well. And all the SJs I know love the kind of planning you hate. They don't even look at it the way you described. Without fullfilling what they "Have-to" there's just no comfort for them. They _have to_ plan and organize things in their life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Interesting. I agree with most of this, except I really seriously doubt the ESTJ for 2 reasons. First, I'm just not an extrovert, no matter how the functions break down. Second, I think Si is probably my top function, certainly higher than Te. That might account for the daydreaming and the "living in my head" aspect.

    And yeah, I mentioned the list-making because it seemed like a very Si thing to do.

    Thanks, VagrantFarce.
    Liking to make lists may be your INFP's aspirational Te at work. I do that sometimes too.
    And I will say it again, from my own experience, not only do Sensors never daydream, some of them (STJ in particular, methinks) look down at it. They don't see at the cognitive process that some people are just inclined to have, they see at as a leisurly activity that some people choose to engage in, which is wasting time and points to their immaturity and ineffectiveness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    This should be interesting... I'm curious to see how this adds up...

    Relationships: I'm very different with family and non-family. I'm absolutely loyal to family. I enjoy spending time with them and feel completely comfortable around them. I always answer when they call.

    Non-family is different. I make friends pretty easily, but have a hard time keeping them because I do dodge their calls and cancel plans with them. [fun example: as I was typing this paragraph, my boyfriend called and I blew him off]. For a very long time, I can be pretty indifferent to people. Nothing but time can warm me up. So, if a friend/boyfriend can deal with my fickleness and slight avoidance for a long time, they win me over and have me on their side forever.

    In romantic relationships, I've always said I'd be much more in love after 20 years of marriage than I ever could be just starting out. Romance doesn't hold a lot of magic for me - and I've never felt the "falling in love" emotion, at least in the way others describe it. Love for me is something that just has to grow with time - someone who sticks around through thick and thin, someone who I have memories of shared experiences, etc...

    I do consider my faith to be very important to me, but I haven't actually gone to church regularly since I was 8 years old (I'm 30 now). I was raised Baptist, went through the requisite teenage agnosticism, and spent most of my 20s in seeker mode. I tried out some of the more liberal churches but found them a little too wishy-washy for me (I wanted a church, not a community service group). I guess I'm still in seeker mode, but I'm strongly considering converting to Catholicism because I like the combination of social justice and high personal moral standards.

    Fi

    I pretty much eat, sleep, and breathe politics. I love every aspect of it, from the inside-the-beltway stuff to the idealistic (but gratingly self-righteous) grassroots-y side. I love American history, I'm big on holidays and love all the festive ritual type stuff, love old movies (have a soft-spot for Frank Capra flicks), and I love baseball, especially my Baltimore Orioles.

    I love playing around with anything that can be categorized - I own marketing books, college guides, baby names books, and other random books of lists. Sometimes, I'll set up weird little cross-discipline research projects for myself, like the time I tried to figure out a correlation between most popular baby names and favored political candidates by state (trying to test whether there are some names that are favored by Democrats/Republicans). I love demographics in general, and enjoy coming up with elaborate stereotypes like that.

    Te, and like I said could be inferior Te



    I also love trivia, and once or twice a month, I'll do the trivia nights at a bar. I love to go for long walks or long drives, because that gives me a chance to zone out and daydream. When I do either one of those, the outside world barely registers.

    I guess one commonality with a lot of the things I like is that I like Old Things. Aside from the American history and the old movies, I have my house decorated with old furniture and use old Life magazines as wall decorations. I have a soft spot for senior citizens, and I've been called an "Old Soul" by one of my friends. But I don't always act old - I have a very playful side. It snowed the other day, and instead of shoveling it, or digging out my car, I had fun throwing snowballs. I love playing softball in the spring/summer, I love roller coasters, I joke around constantly, and my favorite pair of shoes are a beat up pair of sneakers.

    Does that help?

    EDIT: a few more things occurred to me that might be relevant...

    -I love playing board games; mostly of the Taboo, Scattergories variety. (Si?)
    -I love debating. I have some pretty quirky views that I've developed, and I love just having a beer and arguing them for fun.

    I do that a lot. I think that's Ne.

    -I dropped out of high school when I was 16, but even that wasn't particularly rebellious. Mostly, I just stayed around the house playing ping-pong, and ended up graduating college on time anyway. I didn't really get into any kind of trouble, and it didn't really hurt me in any way.
    Rebellious, adventureous, unpredictable, you're assuming to much of P.
    For example, according to some of the SP temperament descriptions all SPs are quite reckless, very adventurous, rebellious, and willing to experiment but my ISTP friend is normally very cautious and is often suspicious of new things and experiences. Dichotomies can also manifest themselves differently in combinations. IN is very different from EN and IS is very different from ES. So INPs may not be quite so enthusiastic about change. I usually like it when it happens, but I tend to be somewhat anxious and sometimes even pessimistic before, when I'm just told that it's coming, I'm not very likely to initiate major change, and will be hesistant for some time, if people suggest it to me. Well, unless it is something I wanted for a long time.

    Honestly, I'm not sure about you being an INFP, but you do not strike me as an ISTJ at all.
    One more question (if you're still willing to reassess your type), is making decision really easy for you?
    Do you have the need to make a decision right away and take action according to your decision, or do you need time to think it through and often keep going back and forth between options?
    From this whole thread I would assume the latter, but still.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    @zenihita:

    First of all, thanks for all the time you put into really analyzing my posts!

    INFP and ISTJ share the same functions, so it isn't surprising that you can see evidence of Si, Fi, Ne, and Te in the description - I guess the only real question is in which order they belong. I appreciate your pointing out the instances of Fi - I usually have a hard time identifying that function in myself.

    As for the daydreaming, wouldn't that be fairly common with any introverted type - well, really any type overall, I guess? I described the way I daydream in another thread: About Intuition - post 139

    Stereotypes of the serious-minded workerbee aside, why do you think that wouldn't be common with Si as a dominant function?

    On this point, I'd also like to hear from other ISTJs or SJs in general to see if they are comfortable with daydreaming.

    For the time being, I'm sold on ISTJ - I'm feeling pretty comfortable with it. But, like I said, there's a 30-day exchange policy, so feel free to continue trying to dissuade me...

  3. #113
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    @BlackCat, Brainheart, & TheChosenOne: Thanks!

  4. #114
    Senior Member Space_Oddity's Avatar
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    Hi Ruthie,

    I confess I haven't read the entire thread, but I've read most of it, and I have to agree with Zenihita's opinion. I think that the traits you described as J traits (liking routine, predictability, love for history/past etc.) don't necessarily have to be J traits. They're Si traits, and a lot of INPs have strong Si, which sometimes makes them similar to ISJs. Furthermore, a lot of other traits you described are, in my opinion, mutually exclusive with being a J. Js are internally very organized. Some of them are externally disorganized (especially under stress or when they experience some 'change of heart' and want to be more rebellious), but the plan-making and scheduling and preferring not to procrastinate and very concrete lines of thinking are what makes an ISTJ an ISTJ.

    Besides, as Zenihita said, it is not typical for an ISTJ to be completely comfortable with theories and concepts. By that, I'm by no means implying that ISTJs are not as intelligent as Ns, or any stupid generalization like that. My boyfriend, two of my closest friends and my last year's roommate are ISTJs, and I reckon I know their way of thinking very well. They are not theoretical. They are factual. If they present some personal 'theories', they are almost always based on facts, not some intuitive processes, and they always deconstruct other people's theories in a very detailed, factual way, while sometimes missing the big picture. For the same reason, they're for example typically not very good with interpreting literature, even those who love it. However, I'd disagree with Zenihita's statement that ISTJs (or STs) are not daydreamers - some of them are really not (the friend and roommate of mine love fiction, but they both stated that it's just 'an escape from reality' which is 'not a fairy-tale'), but those with well-developed Ne may very well be (my boyfriend is a HUGE dreamer, and so is the other friend - I reckon they are more 'inclined' toward the ENFP flip-side).

    Furthermore, I've got direct experience with two of my family members (my dad and my older brother) who are both INFPs, but try their best to come across as ISTJs. My dad is VERY responsible, a workaholic, conservative, perfectionist (about his work only, though), is able to make decent plans if forced, but he's still undoubtedly an 'absent-minded professor' INFP. He's a historian of architecture, but he loves history in general and he's got formidable memory and knowledge of any topic he's ever got passionate about, like literature, linguistic and music theory (hence, this is definitely not only an ISTJ trait). However, it's not that he's only 'memorized' the facts; they primarily served as a base for his personal opinions and theories, which scream Fi+Ne. He's very reserved, so he rarely shares, but it's always visible how value and feeling based his theories are (hence INFP, not INTP). Also, when he discusses something with my INTJ mum, it's always clear how she strives to develop a clear, strong opinion as soon as possible and be done with it, but he tries to moderate that and show her other possible views of the situation (a typical P-J difference, IMO). Furthermore, he's absolutely unaware of his surroundings and would clearly like to stay in his own little world as much as possible, which is definitely not an S trait. My older brother is the very same type of person as my dad, which is probably why he desperately tries to distinguish himself from him (and be more like a decent STJ), but the only thing he succeeded at is greater awareness of the outside world, otherwise he's also primarily a theoretical, value driven person who dislikes generalizations and hasty opinions.

    One last remark regarding the intense love of routine: I don't think this is necessarily a trait of dominant Si, because people who are very comfortable with introverted sensing know what will work and what won't, and therefore can allow themselves to experiment. It's like that with any dominant function, I'd say. I would say that what you described is a trait of strong, but not perfectly developed Si, the same thing that I can see in my dad and very often even in myself. My routine usually concerns some rather ridiculous details that do not require any routine at all, but I'm just used them and I don't want to change something that I know and have grown used to (even if it's a little quirky).

    I was like that especially when I was little. For example, when I was 3 or 4 years old, I had my favourite sweat pants that I loved wearing during the holiday. I wanted to wear ONLY the sweat pants NO MATTER WHAT, even if there was deadly heat outside. My family was laughing at me, but I was unwavering, until it was such a heat that my (other) older brother purposefully spilled water on my sweat pants. But that was a huge mistake. Instead wearing shorts like a good reasonable girl, I started bawling, and I was desperately crying and crying that I want my "sweat pants and T-shirt" until they dried up. That was the spirit, wasn't it? Not it's one of these favourite family stories that you hear on every family gathering.

    I haven't seen anything like that in any ISTJ I've met. This trait signifies that you're NOT practical, not that you ARE.

    Well, to sum it up, I don't mean to persuade you that you're not an ISTJ if you're already convinced that you are. That is obviously not in my place. However, I would like to say that a lot of people here applied methods of typing that are actually not too reliable and can lead to wrong conclusions, and offer you another point of view. Perhaps I even managed to convince you even more about your ISTJ-ness, who knows. It's just that I'm quite sure that my dad would get typed as an ISTJ here, but he's kind of 'stereotypically' ISTJ-ish only on the outside. On the inside, he's all about Fi and Ne.

    Anyway, good luck with everything you're doing, type regardless

    (And, uhm, by the way, it would make me very happy to hear any reaction from you, because it took me ages to type this ... in one way or another )

  5. #115
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    I definitely appreciate all the time you put into this, and I'm considering... digesting... all of these opinions. It seems pretty safe to assume that I have the functional make-up determined: Si, Fi, Ne, Te and that it's just a matter of ordering them. So, I can only go on which functions I can identify with the most:

    Si: I can strongly relate to this. I feel a real pull to honor What Came Before. I see myself as part of a much longer tradition. I love predictability, stability, and routine. I have an excellent memory for facts and trivia. This all fits me perfectly.

    Te: This, I'm slightly less sure of. I state opinions easily and have a good grasp of logic in my world. I enjoy putting points in order (the way I'm structuring this post by functional breakdown for example). I can be very definite in my communication. But, in my actual world, I can be disorganized. This could very well be attributed to my environment... I wasn't raised with a lot of rules or structure, so maybe it's just been difficult for me to catch up.

    Fi: I suppose I'm pretty introspective and self-analytical. I usually dismiss this as having little or no value to me, because, like I said I have a hard time trusting personal values without context. I see this trait in myself as a matter of self-indulgence. Part of me is fascinated by figuring out my inner process, but the angel on my shoulder keeps telling me to knock it off - that I'm not so special. Interestingly, I was raised to trust and nurture this process... I don't know where that particular "angel on my shoulder" comes from.

    Ne: This is fun in a mental games way, but not as a guide for life. I want to play around with ideas - mix and match disciplines in stories, jokes, and debates but I don't like seeing my life as a series of endless possibilities. I'm grounded and highly skeptical of change, but I don't see why that usually implies that I wouldn't have an interest in concepts and theories.

    So, yeah, I can see evidence of each of those functions, but right now, I'm seeing them ordered in this way. I'll certainly consider your post - it's very well thought out - but to accept it, I'd have to become convinced that I rely more on Fi and Ne than Si or Te... that just doesn't seem to match with how I actually relate to the functions. But, like I said - there's always that 30-day policy...

  6. #116
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    I'll have to respond later... lol.

    But what I can say is that I think that Ruthie is a good example of a "modernized" SJ. I think that a lot of SJ stereotypes comes from previous generations. AFAIK Ruthie is in her 20's. She reminds me of that guy Beat, he's another ISTJ who's "modernized" and doesn't fit a lot of the stereotypes.

    These modernized SJs I've met seem more open to change, because change is an encouraged thing in the world at this place in time. From what I've read of SJs, upbringing effects them a lot.

    Ruthie also reminds me of one of my ISTJ friends, just with the feel that they both give off (my friend is also a female). She likes theory and abstract conversations as well, but she can have a hard time with some Ne related things. She can be totally oblivious to some implications, doesn't really think about changing things, etc. I will have to summarize my thoughts on the subject later.

    Intuition and Sensing are ways of perception keep in mind. Being interested in abstract topics doesn't really have a set correlation, even though a lot of Ns are interested in them. Also being interested in abstract topics doesn't have anything to do with how you perceive things.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  7. #117
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post


    I'll have to respond later... lol.

    But what I can say is that I think that Ruthie is a good example of a "modernized" SJ. I think that a lot of SJ stereotypes comes from previous generations. AFAIK Ruthie is in her 20's. She reminds me of that guy Beat, he's another ISTJ who's "modernized" and doesn't fit a lot of the stereotypes.

    These modernized SJs I've met seem more open to change, because change is an encouraged thing in the world at this place in time. From what I've read of SJs, upbringing effects them a lot.

    Ruthie also reminds me of one of my ISTJ friends, just with the feel that they both give off (my friend is also a female). She likes theory and abstract conversations as well, but she can have a hard time with some Ne related things. She can be totally oblivious to some implications, doesn't really think about changing things, etc. I will have to summarize my thoughts on the subject later.

    Intuition and Sensing are ways of perception keep in mind. Being interested in abstract topics doesn't really have a set correlation, even though a lot of Ns are interested in them. Also being interested in abstract topics doesn't have anything to do with how you perceive things.
    Yuck! I hate being called modern!

  8. #118
    Senior Member NewEra's Avatar
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    Here's a good way to tell...

    Describe an orange - tell me anything you can about an orange (the fruit).

  9. #119
    Senior Member Tyrant's Avatar
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    Ruthie's an ILE (ENTp).

    That's a very stupid question, ChosenOne.

  10. #120
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    I also forgot to add that my ISTJ friend is a 6w5, probably sp/so. Ruthie is also 6w5. I think that the 5 wing may perhaps add to the interest in concepts like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrant View Post
    Ruthie's an ENTp.
    Why?
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

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