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  1. #31
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I'm surprised to see passive-aggressiveness in an ESFJ. I've seen that (almost?) exclusively in people I know or believe to be Ps, especially FPs...and I say that as a P. In particular the ESFJs I know are VERY far from *passive* aggression. Maybe it's a learned trait though (ie non-mbti).
    -end of thread-

  2. #32
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    This thread offers unusual distinction into some of the predominant stereotypes that infiltrate judgment on type classifications (mine, at least) while perhaps unveiling further some of the qualitative descriptions some mechanically associate with type.

    1. Initially, I deduced my ESTP description on the basis of WHO the individual interacted with and HOW. Phrases like "he's a dick", or that he "talk[s] shit to dealers and frequently loses money" created a visualization of a fast-talking, socially-adroit individual who was simultaneously comfortable with impulsive gambling while tailoring conversation to his immediate advantage.

    In doing so, I glossed over what I concluded to be less expressive details (quality of his friendship; fashion sensibility) and, in the end, fabricated an inaccurate evaluation against certain "false positive" criteria. The error was in my inability to aptly select reasonable evidence from unimportant data.

    Just a quick example of the processes that fueled my misconceptions.

    Anyone else experience anything similar to this?
    Yes. The descriptions are almost stereotypical... with the exception of person #1... which seems to be a mixture of stereotypical behaviour. Looking at this backwards, it's as if when we describe an individual, our knowledge of their type (or presumed type) influences what we focus on and thus what we mention.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm surprised to see passive-aggressiveness in an ESFJ. I've seen that (almost?) exclusively in people I know or believe to be Ps, especially FPs...and I say that as a P. In particular the ESFJs I know are VERY far from *passive* aggression. Maybe it's a learned trait though (ie non-mbti).
    Actually, I've seen passive-aggressiveness in an ESFJ that I know. It's probably better labelled as "manipulative" behaviour. Playing on guilt and emotions in getting their way sort of thing. Very much Fe driven.
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  3. #33
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Precisely.

    When we latch on to these observed behavioral "receptors", we're buying into the theoretically-supported bias that gives centrifugal force to the MBTI as a measuring stick.

    It is something of a chicken/egg scenario -- are we now impossibly bound (after understanding the MBTI) to spelunk for these would-be empirical "hotspots" that provide rationale that an individual is a certain type against his displayed behavior?

    Perhaps our thinking caps are forever dented.

  4. #34
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post

    Actually, I've seen passive-aggressiveness in an ESFJ that I know. It's probably better labelled as "manipulative" behaviour. Playing on guilt and emotions in getting their way sort of thing. Very much Fe driven.
    Yes, I think FJ's/ Fe's can be quite passive-aggressive and manipulative in this sense, but it's something Fi's can exhibit as well. So I don't think behaviorally it's a great indicator of type.

    As for the exercise, it is interesting. Just illustrates various methods of typing, and also how the profiles, catchphrases, and rhetoric associated with each type influences how we go about typing people. (Question though: Since it IS a general classification system to begin with, and we have to classify in some way, maybe the catchphrases are the way we choose to do it? The method of typing doesn't really matter, as long as everyone agreed on the consistent best method to type!! haha)

    Shall we decide to solely use profiles as the means of categorization and classification? Or dig deeper? Depending on the method, a single person could be classified as various types.

    I've never thought the various theories lined up seamlessly with one another - i.e. simple profiles and the dichotomy approach, cognitive function approach, interaction/leadership styles, etc. If everyone decided to just stick to one approach, it might be more clear cut. It's combining these various methods (which are theories anyhow - I've never been convinced on the whole function order thing) that causes fuzziness and makes one person focus on certain aspects as their means of typing and defining type, and another person focus on other aspects as their means of defining type.

    A consistent, unifying method would make things easier. But in the end, it is just a means of classifying personality trends - so it'll always just be a broad 'summary' of the person, leaving out the little idiosyncracies and the immense amount of psychological things that aren't accounted for by mbti.

    Just my opinion though - and sorry for the wordiness.
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  5. #35
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    Of course, one could wonder if Cenomite made those profiles all up...

  6. #36
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Of course, one could wonder if Cenomite made those profiles all up...
    Would it change the unifying theme?

    That is, that we look for popular traits against what the MBTI teaches and therefore unavoidably commit circular bias to ensure "accurate" classification.

    I guess my primary charge is that much of what the MBTI offers is grounded in generalization, whereas other scientific models propose intimate evaluation as the basis for conclusion.

    The common MBTI phrase that, "everyone is an exception" is something of an apologist approach and should cast doubt into the ultimate credibility of the MBTI as a model for reliable examination.

    Maybe I'm overstating my basis. Perhaps the principle I've outlined is a given, and I've simply overlooked it up to this point.

  7. #37
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Yes, I think FJ's/ Fe's can be quite passive-aggressive and manipulative in this sense, but it's something Fi's can exhibit as well. So I don't think behaviorally it's a great indicator of type.
    Yes, there's that too... I guess it's not so much the behaviour as working out the intent behind it that matters more.

    (Question though: Since it IS a general classification system to begin with, and we have to classify in some way, maybe the catchphrases are the way we choose to do it? The method of typing doesn't really matter, as long as everyone agreed on the consistent best method to type!! haha)

    Shall we decide to solely use profiles as the means of categorization and classification? Or dig deeper? Depending on the method, a single person could be classified as various types.
    Can there ever be a consistent method for typing? I guess the problem here is that none of the theories are all encompassing. So people pick and choose different aspect to best fit an individual.

    I've never thought the various theories lined up seamlessly with one another - i.e. simple profiles and the dichotomy approach, cognitive function approach, interaction/leadership styles, etc. If everyone decided to just stick to one approach, it might be more clear cut. It's combining these various methods (which are theories anyhow - I've never been convinced on the whole function order thing) that causes fuzziness and makes one person focus on certain aspects as their means of typing and defining type, and another person focus on other aspects as their means of defining type.
    When I type I actually take an aggregate of the dichotomy and cognitive functions... Actually, the objective isn't so much to type but to understand them. So I have no problems with using whatever I have on hand.

    The issue with two people coming up with different type is interesting though. Just like when two different tests give you different answers, which one do you go with? Or neither? Or something in between? Or perhaps it doesn't matter at all?
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  8. #38
    Senior Member hokie912's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    Yes, I think FJ's/ Fe's can be quite passive-aggressive and manipulative in this sense, but it's something Fi's can exhibit as well. So I don't think behaviorally it's a great indicator of type.
    I talked about this recently with a friend who finds INFPs to be passive-aggressive, and we realized that it's probably a miscommunication thing. I don't think INFPs are actively passive-aggressive, but their non-directive style of communication sometimes makes them come across as such to strong Js. Like, some INFPs I've known will say, "Oh, we're out of paper." and not follow up on it, while a judging person expects to hear, "I'll get more paper," or at least "Could you pick up some paper?" So it might not be that their intention is to make someone else do what they want, but that's what comes across. I wonder if this applies to some extent to all types with strong Fi.

    Most of the people I have met who strike me as actively passive-aggressive are FJs, but maybe that's just the sample of people I know. ISFJs seem to fall into that trap especially easily. Again, probably to some extent a communication issue.

  9. #39
    Systematic chaos Cenomite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Of course, one could wonder if Cenomite made those profiles all up...
    No. That would pretty much void the effectiveness of this thread/exercise. If you don't believe me, please direct further comments to a wall.
    The probability that I was procrastinating when I was typing this post:

    P(have big assignment due) = 0.6
    P(posting on TypoC) = 0.2
    P(having big assignment due | posting on TypoC) = 0.7

    P(posting on TypoC | having big assignment due) = .......


    Eh, I'll finish it later.

  10. #40
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    my guesses, without looking for the answers somewhere in this thread:

    1. ESTP
    2. INTJ
    3. ENTJ
    4. ESFJ

    edit:
    ok so it seems my 1 and 3 are "wrong".

    1. remove this sentence: "He walks around with a popped collar, frequently in casinos talking shit to dealers and losing money" and i would of guessed ENTJ for "1". Popped collars and losing money sounds like very un NTJ behavior...

    3. the difference between ENTP and ENTJ is pretty hard for me to see if: they arent in charge of something, arent trying to become in charge of something, are young and/or if either on has an ounce of Fe/Fi (for each respective type).

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