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  1. #11
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    You have provided good reasoning for your enneagrams. Hmm, like Jeremy said I think that questioning your type can be an INFP trait, but it could also be Ni function being used a lot, contemplating how you could be INFP or INFJ, so thats a reason for INFJ. If this helps, its sometimes possible for INFPs to have high Ni, from what I've talked with other INFPs, I have that aswell, but I could be INFJ aswell.

    I don't think you should dismiss INFJ, though, it feels like you could be INFJ. It could be due to external situations that you have developed Fi, as you say.
    ///

    hmmm interesting.....so it's possible to be infp with high Ni makes since
    so does the external situations cause when that happened i really had to go inside myself and do some major reevaluation of what i was going through and how to deal with it cause i felt unsure and it seemed like it would prove helpful to use Fi which is described as
    "It is often hard to assign words to the values used to make introverted Feeling judgments since they are often associated with images, feeling tones, and gut reactions more than words (sounds similar to Ni how do i tell the difference between Ni and Fi and Ne/Fe/feel like this will prove helpful if i first figure out what makes those different...thanks so much ^^).). As a cognitive process, it often serves as a filter for information that matches what is valued, wanted, or worth believing in. There can be a continual weighing of the situational worth or importance of everything and a patient balancing of the core issues of peace and conflict in life’s situations. We engage in the process of introverted Feeling when a value is compromised and we think, “Sometimes, some things just have to be said.” this is agree with cause i had to sometimes just say things despite disagreement to stand up for myself at first standing up for myself was hard cause in the heat of the moment i felt i couldn't put my feelings into well thought answers i've been working on that lately to better say my feelings in a quick and to the point of the matter. learning to have a thought to what i'm feeling and being able to actually express it. On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good. (Ni can do this too can't it?It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
    ////
    Introverted iNtuiting involves synthesizing the seemingly paradoxical or contradictory, which takes understanding to a new level. Using this process, we can have moments when completely new, unimagined realizations come to us. A disengagement from interactions in the room occurs, followed by a sudden “Aha!” or “That’s it!” The sense of the future and the realizations that come from introverted iNtuiting have a sureness and an imperative quality that seem to demand action and help us stay focused on fulfilling our vision or dream of how things will be in the future. (can see where i've had a hunch and just in case to be prepared i would push alittle harder to get something cause i sensed it would be needed in the next few months and of course it was bang on i needed it(license/car unless i wanted to be held back anymore then i already was by certain family members and there decisions that could have held me back more from people not respecting that "i do have needs and would like to go to school/support self instead of always filling in for the mother not taking up her role and said person not finding something to do with said child. willing to help but not sacrifice my needs of wanting to go back to school/getting work/ bettering myself and getting out there in the world lol. etc)
    Using this process, we might rely on a focal device or symbolic action to predict, enlighten, or transform. We could find ourselves laying out how the future will unfold based on unseen trends and telling signs.(this is what happened when i just new that getting would be beneficial cause something was going to interfere with my plans and if i didn't have a car this person will manipulate that fact. This process can involve working out complex concepts or systems of thinking or conceiving of symbolic or novel ways to understand things that are universal. It can lead to creating transcendent experiences or solutions.

    ////

    do yourself a favor, and focus only on functions and only on the first two functions. understanding Fi and Fe is the most important (reliable) keyfactor. (once INFx is sure) and for heavens sake forget about the J/P dichotomy.

    /////

    okay so looking at the first two functions of infj and infp.
    introverted intuition/ extraverted feeling/ infx
    introverted feeling/ extraverted intuition/ infx
    pretty sure F but can never be too sure so then when i figure out those then i look over at judging and perceiving.
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  2. #12
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    this is agree with cause i had to sometimes just say things despite disagreement to stand up for myself at first standing up for myself was hard cause in the heat of the moment i felt i couldn't put my feelings into well thought answers i've been working on that lately to better say my feelings in a quick and to the point of the matter. learning to have a thought to what i'm feeling and being able to actually express it.
    these are your words right? i see nothing in that, that is exclusive to Fi. it might be Fe as well. in fact for me -being Ni- its common to lose my mind over anger. the translation of intuition into language is the hardest thing, and when in temper i will only be able to throw out some simple metaphors and exaggerations. in such a moment i dont have arguments that relate to how the other people are thinking, i just have a picture, its like that! makes me look stupid in the eyes of Ti or Fi people.

    how do you relate to this

  3. #13
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    On the other hand, most of the time this process works “in private” and is expressed through actions. It helps us know when people are being fake or insincere or if they are basically good.
    this sentence says that Fi evaluates people based on action and thinks of a person as good person if the person makes an effort. this is not an analysis of integrity, coherence of character or anything. it is not interested in the charakter at all. only in good will. Fi is quick to think that the most inauthentic people are good hearted. on the other hand it is quick to think that a person is bad if he acts in a destructive style (Fi has a poor/vage understanding of "styles"), and Fi does not care much if the inner integrity of that person "requires" this style of action. them break the rules of inner-harmony (steadiness), they could hurt anyone, them bad punks :p

    NiFe is much more sceptical about how coherent a person is. Fe strongly acknowledges any good willingness, but Ni will not be blended by that. this comes with a typical ambiguity about how one relates to people. those whose course of action Ni may adore for its character (vision), may scare Fe in a relationship because of their frequent violation of static Fe reliability (external harmony), those who are easy to get along with, or easy to calculate, emotionally, may secretly be judged as boring or inauthentic.

    (Ni can do this too can't it?It is like having an internal sense of the “essence” of a person or a project and reading fine distinctions among feeling tones.
    the idea of essence is liked by NiFe and FiNe people equally, though they have a different idea of what it is.

    "fine distinctions among feeling tones" are picked up by both Fe and Fi. they are likely to pic up a different set of tones, though.

  4. #14
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hokie912 View Post
    I can't help but be skeptical of this characterization. Every INFJ I've known has been private and fairly hesitant about self-disclosing anything personal to them. Expressing opinions, sure, but anything really close to our hearts is off-limits unless we have some reason to trust you. I know much more about most of my friends and acquaintances than they know about me...and I sort of like it that way.

    On the other hand, we do selectively disclose to "build bridges." I just doubt that INFJs are that much more likely to disclose information about themselves, much less not classify much about themselves as personal.
    personal info disclosure happens in only if i know i can trust that person to not break the trust of me opening up to tell such a deeply held vulnerability.
    recently i have been getting to know someone better and i finally let out a vulnerability i don't let out much and to the advice of my mother i decided to let it out and fill in this close friend about how i've been feeling lately about a vulnerability in return she shared something with me which felt like there was bridge built like you said and it felt good to share each others inner worlds and be able to understand and listen to each other. this was the only person i filled in on this part of myself i wouldn't fill in anyone about this if i knew they would be judgemental or critical of my view point/vulnerability with little sympathy or understanding or would blab it to every other friend.

    i tend to withhold info that could give someone my identity or to find me i would prefer to not have that released as well/ b-days, facts of things that happened to me and what not.

    it's interesting you mention about how you know much more about most of your friends then they do about you, I have to actually agree on that one.
    when this one person passed my mom would tell me " you should at least tell a couple of your friends what your going through so you have someone to go to...i replied i know. then whenever i get a boyfriend or getting to know them i don't want to get to know them with my friends around esp. this one friend who tried to be around when i was getting to know this person i said "i appreciate it but i just want it to be the two of us so i can get to know them etc. really i didn't like the idea of them intruding on something i haven't even established yet with the person and even if it did turn into something it would be under lock and key i could see where my friends wouldn't be apart of my romantic relationships they would know i'm dating someone only if i know they wouldn't try to pry into our private buisness(this one friend wouldn't know; too nosy hehe) but even then it's not like i would have them hanging around when were together it would be more....the annual dinner here he is lol.

    that has been my problem my mother has let me know on numerous occasions "it's okay to tell people the pain you have went through you know"
    to which i go "i know but i will when i'm ready and if that person deserves to hear it and know it won't fall on deaf ears" (tendency to hold back the expression of the actual pain of a situation and the inner turmoil that went down that i don't hand over so easy i'm like a fault on that one....one thing i do notice none of my friends have been in my room either but i've been in there's hahaha...i have to really trust you as a true blue friend not just some nosy person who wants to sniff through all my material stuff i feel if someone is snooping through my stuff i get really annoyed if it's not warranted by me it could be looking through a box of my bath and body stuff but i still don't like it what do you really think your going to gain by being nosy and invading heh.

    this person also would go through people stuff just lying around too i remember one time we were out for lunch and we all had our accessories just sitting there. of course this person grabs one of them and says " oooh what do we got in here" proceeds to snoop the first thing i do is grab mine and place it my shoulder as a "your not doing that without my permission" jesture.
    it's like an invasion i'd rather you not do that it's obnoxious lol get to know me not my purse and it's contents haha.

    thanks this is tricky.
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  5. #15
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    one of nanook's posts.
    mad stuff inspired by this thread

    its not actually about the functions in a purely abstract cognitive context.
    its about particular aspects, typical symptoms, of introverted and extroverted feeling.


    involuntary awareness of other peoples social attitudes and relative emotions is raving Fe. been hugely developing this lately.

    Fi people will only feel whatever they like to tune into. they may be unaware of how often they are not tune it, or may be tuned in extremely often. but still, if they are tuned in they may rather feel what people feel about themselves, but such feelings are not the topic here. its not what fe is about either.

    Fe scans involuntary....

    the Fe of an introverted person interprets "you make me feel that i am unlovable"
    Fi interprets "I feel about you, that you are one of those haters, shame on you" ( i could see both of these; lately been feeling the ""you make me feel that i am unlovable" and able to express to boot lol)

    both may be afraid to go out of themselves,

    but the Fi person would rather not like to, if he detects disrespect, because "they" are not worth whatever he would have to contribute. the introverted perspective evaluates dominantly what it's subject it worth. if you are hated and it feels bad than hate is bad thing and haters are evil people. away with them. ( i don't think i'm that extreme even when i was younger i wouldn't let "haters" make me think there a bad person more just someone who is not worth my energy and they will work out whatever insecurity there wrestling with. i won't react outwardly. inside it will hurt obviously heh)

    the fe person would like to prove that he is not "unlovable" (in this example, or useless or whatever) (especially lately really vulnerable lately to how people see me or there opinion of me so lately just been hibernating cause of this especially if i feel useless/unlovable) because if he cant prove, he will have to believe that it is true. the extroverted perspective is slave to the objective truth. he is being hated. of course he will hate people back for employing such power over him, but most of all he will hate the world, his birth, his unlovable nature. his ideal is, that people should be allowed to hate him, but should keep it more to themselves.(yesss i never had a problem with people not liking me but just can't understand why can't they keep it to themselves and at show respect. even when i was young i never would act out my dislike i would even show respect to someone. but he knows that they will act on their whims and attack him gladly. there are various ways of dealing with this bad situation. you could project that you are love thus need to be loved back. enfj and esfj would likely start to believe this projection so they would rarely be aware of their underlying conflict. an introverted Fe person would mostly try to be "love" by not speaking his mind. so he is aware of the lie in it. he will often try to be helpful (and genuinely enjoy it if he gets taken advantage of), ( i despite being takin advantage of)but would not dare to help someone who does not think of him as helpfull/usefull. so being helpful does not help to get rid of rejection. you could project that you are steel and can not be affected by what people think.(always did this especially when being picked on when younger i would act like it didn't bother me but it did big time) its a blatant lie but if the spikes on your head are long enough, you fingernails are black enough, and your eyes are grim enough eventually they will believe you, and then you might believe yourself. think of an emo-boy. the irony is, that an emo-boy who projects attitude like this is NOT an Fi person. Fi people do not project their emotional attitudes, and keep true feelings to them self.(i don't project how i feel through described above)

    all of this, the introverted "turnaround of values of others" and the extroverted approach about "pretending ignorance about perceiving values of others" or "pretending to match them" is about getting rid of rejection.

    so all of this is equally disintegrating.

    to integrate Fe you need to be aware of your reaction. hating people for hating you is not okay, for yourself. you do want to understand that they basically have true needs and their values are based on it and you are not needed so you have low value, and that you can be useful to them, if you acknowledge these needs but you do not have to pretend that you are like them, have the same needs that they have ... no point in that. they may still thing that you are shit, because you are not like them, dont have their needs, thus dont have their values, but you don't believe that you are actually shit because you share their values, for their sake.( i never minded expressing something that was my own opinion i actually would show my view on something especially if i felt the person was close minded and wanted to be a sheep; to follow along blindly. this is like going from a suppressed enneagram eight to enneagram two. or like going from victim to jesus.


    the Fe type acts involuntary agent, but feels threatened in that. an introverted Fe type will witness his avoiding behavior, an extroverted Fe type will lie about his hidden agency. he hates feeling threatened and hates agency, but not enough to confront true communion because from where he stands it looks like communion is threatening agency. one needs to embrace communion to achieve a healthy stable agency. he will be inclined to ascending, hoping that, from an high enough gravitation communion cant swallow him. but ascending is unhealthy without descending. one symptom of unhealthy ascending is not having much of a memory of ones past. and bad concentration issues. he must dare conscious descending fist. then he may find healthy communion, then he may find healthy agency, then he may find healthy ascending. conscious descending may be interpreted in a one going to seven (introverted style), an eight going to two (serving), or an two going to four.


    to integrate Fi on the other hand, you need to integrate that you may be shit, imperfect ... even by your very own values, and still be okay with it. you can strive for perfection without lying about how incomplete you are. infect even if you are the best that you can be, you are still just incomplete without other people. don't try to become "right" in order to prove people wrong, don't try to be morally perfect in order to prove them evil, try to acknowledge that you want to experience other people. you don't matter in that experience. you don't want to prove your value for others( i hate having to prove myself to people why can't i just be accepted don't have to share the same view but at least just respect it please lol), your relation to them, you don't have to either, but trying it a little bit would help you to experience more. connection.(sounds like that could help me alittle heh)


    the Fi type will involuntary be very communal, but feels threatened by it, because he gets lost in it, and avoid a lot of situations where communion is even possible. as enneagram nine he would commune without recognizing it. could not help himself, obsessive-helpful behavior (claims that he must stop letting people take advantage of him, but likes being a good boy to much), or having strong feelings of being at home in a small town. as enneagram four he would only commune with loved ones, plenty of them. as nine he wants to experience a fullness in peaceful boring solitude as four he wants to experience fullness in the passion of love. both desires cause descended rather than true communion. for true communion, healthy agency would be required. for true agency a conscious effort to ascending is required. this could be interpreted as a enneagram four going to one (intuitive variation), or a nine going to three (sensing variation) or a seven going to five.

    there is no extroverted Fi type, and i have no Se or Ne types in mind, to create a text that matches them. when writing the above part about Fi i had at least six Fi types in mind. when writing about Fe i had myself and stereotypical enfj in mind. the enneagram references are especially experimental.

    obviously the both of fe and fi are issues for all living people/types. type determines which side of the conflict is consciously troubling us, its the one that needs neurotic compensation. whereas the other one rather sabotages us subconsciously in a long term kind of way.

    but if anyone had achieved more integrated variant of both functions and would more frequently access the inferior or unconscious variant, he would still have a preference for one of them
    __________________
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  6. #16
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    i am sensing a misunderstanding there.

    as an Fe person it is easy to identify with the lecture that an Fi person needs to learn. an Fi person is likely in denial about this need.

    as an Fi person it is easy to identify with the lecture that an Fe person needs to learn. an Fe person is likely in denial about this need.

    so all of what you have bolded is pointing to Fe (i have not jet read your comments, though ..)
    edit: after reading you comments i cant tell if you have resonated with any of the patterns, as i see them.

  7. #17
    :) INFtha14's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    i am sensing a misunderstanding there.

    as an Fe person it is easy to identify with the lecture that an Fi person needs to learn. an Fi person is likely in denial about this need.

    as an Fi person it is easy to identify with the lecture that an Fe person needs to learn. an Fe person is likely in denial about this need.(i'm confused here about fe/fi and identifying with the lecture i'm not grasping the idea of what this means for some reason)

    so all of what you have bolded is pointing to Fe (i have not jet read your comments, though ..)
    edit: after reading you comments i cant tell if you have resonated with any of the patterns, as i see them.
    (i must be brain fried xDD; what you mean by resonated; not as in definition but you can't tell of the cognitive process patterns or?)
    What is Feeling?
    Feeling is primarily a process.....that imparts to the content a definite value in the sense of acceptance or rejection. In the same way that thinking organizes the contents of consciousness under concepts, feeling arranges them according to their value. Feeling, like thinking, is a rational function, since values in general are assigned according to the laws of reason...
    (Carl Jung, Psychological Types, Chapter XI - Definitions)

  8. #18
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    (i must be brain fried xDD; what you mean by resonated; not as in definition but you can't tell of the cognitive process patterns or?)
    i mean, your reaction does not tell me which one of the patterns that i have descibed match you better.

    i'm confused here about fe/fi and identifying with the lecture i'm not grasping the idea of what this means for some reason)
    i mean, for example, if you are Fe you naturally know how to do Fe, and it matches your valuesystem. if i say "Fe is important" you will agree. "yes we need more Fe in the world, Fe for the win". thats what i mean by identifying. unless you are very vise and realize that you (being Fe) need to develop more Fi values. so if someone boldfaces the lecture for Fi (which basically says: "you need more Fe values"), than this may mean, that he allready is an Fe person. or he is a wise Fi person who understands his need for Fe.

  9. #19
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    I have to say those were some amazing posts...

    "he must dare conscious descending first. then he may find healthy communion, then he may find healthy agency, then he may find healthy ascending. conscious descending may be interpreted in a one going to seven (introverted style), an eight going to two (serving), or an two going to four."

    How does one consciously descend? Hmm that sounds interesting.

    Also I think you have a good grasp of both intuitive and feeling functions and thus, is a good reason for it being blurred, emotion hues and intuitive are difficult to categorise, by their nature and Nanook it seems that whichever function DuchessoftheShadows, she values, having the other function, which will the make distinction difficult between INFP and INFJ. I feel you are an INFJ from reading from this, due to the categorising, systemising nature of INFJ's due to their tertiary Ti, which runs as an undercurrent in their evaluation of human orientated systems, I see this in your posts here, INFPs do too aswell, in a different manner, they compare, contrast, evaluate too, so you could be using Si either, as well, since that is reviewing and linking, quite similar hmm, its hard to say.

    "INFJ Tertiary
    Introverted Thinking (Ti)

    Clarifying principles
    Categorizing and classifying
    Analyzing
    Checking consistency
    Universal"

    "INFP Tertiary
    Introverted Sensing (Si)

    Reviewing
    Linking
    Comparing and contrasting
    Noticing match and mismatch
    Past"

  10. #20
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Does it matter if you're one type or the other? What does a type label mean anyhow?

    If your first impulse is getting mad at me for not "helping" you're INFP. Ni from INFJ will be prompted by the question into writing a long response of what it think it means.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

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