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  1. #11
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Hello! And welcome! You seem like a cool person

    Socionics is hard to figure out. It says I'm either an IEI with a 99% of chance to be an EII or vice versa. And apparently I can't fully relate to just one of them.
    I don't take really seriously enneagram either. I think of it like an extension of MBTI, used in order set some differences between people with the same type. I don't think that alone could make much sense.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  2. #12
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    welcome

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by InStinct View Post
    Human emotions are nothing but extremely complex series of biochemical processes in our brain, there is no need to mystify them by adding esoterical elements which rely on made up and completely arbitary conventions, as opposed to scientific explenations based on evidence... I didn't want to make my introduction much longer, feel free to have comments, I'm open to any kind of discussion.
    Being an INTP also I have a question on your personal perspective. I have never had a particular problem identifying the emotions of others, breaking down the chemical balances, psychological standing, or other various types of 'imprinting' and the events leading up to them. I become paralyzed however at the behavior and actions that individuals construct BASED on such flimsy and unsteady information. I am continuously stunned and also sometimes disturbed by those around me. If make a connection with someone (a click if you will, and non-romantic in nature) I can pull apart all their behaviors and past emotional states to understand and yes sometimes manipulate their state of mind or emotion. However, even if I discuss all of this with them and bring theories etc to the conversation they continuously regard me as the one who is completely 'bizarre'. It has taken me a long time to get over an overwhelming sensation that I was in fact completely insane because following the logic and numbers I was ALWAYS the one out of place and 'odd'. It was more reasonable to dissect my possible insanity than the absurd idea of such a warped outlook. My question is does any of this sound familiar to you? Or am I still the 'odd one'

  4. #14
    Junior Member InStinct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryiker
    Quote Originally Posted by InStinct View Post
    Human emotions are nothing but extremely complex series of biochemical processes in our brain, there is no need to mystify them by adding esoterical elements which rely on made up and completely arbitary conventions, as opposed to scientific explenations based on evidence... I didn't want to make my introduction much longer, feel free to have comments, I'm open to any kind of discussion.
    Being an INTP also I have a question on your personal perspective. I have never had a particular problem identifying the emotions of others, breaking down the chemical balances, psychological standing, or other various types of 'imprinting' and the events leading up to them. I become paralyzed however at the behavior and actions that individuals construct BASED on such flimsy and unsteady information. I am continuously stunned and also sometimes disturbed by those around me. If make a connection with someone (a click if you will, and non-romantic in nature) I can pull apart all their behaviors and past emotional states to understand and yes sometimes manipulate their state of mind or emotion. However, even if I discuss all of this with them and bring theories etc to the conversation they continuously regard me as the one who is completely 'bizarre'. It has taken me a long time to get over an overwhelming sensation that I was in fact completely insane because following the logic and numbers I was ALWAYS the one out of place and 'odd'. It was more reasonable to dissect my possible insanity than the absurd idea of such a warped outlook. My question is does any of this sound familiar to you? Or am I still the 'odd one'
    Well, it sure takes a lot of patience. I'd find it extremely hard to explain this in mere theoretical details, it sure is possible, but it would probably end up a thousand lines long explenation if I took everything into abstract concepts and it would be difficult to interpret, let alone use it, so instead, I'd try the explenation on just a bit more of a practical level with an example.

    What I think you mean is for example, when people go out with a person they have absolutely zero compatibility with, just because "it feels right" to them. It is really easy to predict the outcome of such a relationship and many times they are even very well aware of this, but they still can't help doing it.

    Emotions can be very stubborn and difficult to control in such situations for the individual themselves, let alone for an outsider like us. There is absolutely no way you can convince them based on any kind of rational argument, even if you break down for them the whole psychological process they're going through. It is completely futile and can be really frustrating if you try that. You need to get to an emotional level and understand not only the cause of the emotion and the current state, but also the nature of it. And the nature of it is actually really fragile most of the time. You need to understand a bit of psychology here, that the more you're trying to convince them, the more you're putting them into defensive mode. It's sort of a paradox, it's like when you argue about someone's religion and you trying to prove it wrong in various ways, in their mind, just acts as further proof for their own irrational extraordinary claims. Well, almost like it, our believes are hard-wired into the subconcious mind so it's apparently close to impossible to alter that by mere personal interactions, while emotions tend to be a lot more prone to challenges and this is the key thing here. When I'm in a situation like this, I no longer argue them. I don't come up with my magnificent psychological ideas and breakdowns and arguments, rather I focus on understanding them, and getting this 'connection' to work. People tend to trust you a lot when they feel you understand them.

    Now emotions are very vulnerable to strawman attacks because emotional thinking, by definition, doesn't understand the concept of a strawman. So if you build a high enough expectation, then the whole process breaks down. First you identify the weakspots of this relationship and regard those as absolutely the best part of the relationship and present it like that. The mind is tricked easily here. The other person will feel the cognitive dissonance and the thought process will alter by these standards, usually in this order:

    1) Here's a person I trust and he understands me and why I like this other person.
    2) He takes extraordinarily good claims about this relationships, but it is actually not that good as he is saying.
    3) Perhaps he only believes this relationship is so good because he really thinks that.
    4) Perhaps this relationship is not as good as I thought afterall.

    This is what I call, 'emotional convincing'. (Well, some call it brutal manipulation, but whatever ). If they come back to you at some point saying that they're confused , then you know you did it really well. Then comes the explenation part. Usually I say something like 'Well, I was suspicious about it, but I felt like I'd trust your own judgement about it, and I still think this is the most important thing. If you no longer feel this is so good, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it at all.' Notice, how easy is, at this confused state, to project your own thoughts as their own.

    This is not a 100% bullet proof method of course, there are people who are just too delusional and completely refuse to come to terms with reality no matter how hard you try, but then again, there is absolutely nothing you can do about them except for being there as a comfort when reality finally hits them(cheating, jealousy issues, or whatever else for that matter).

    Another good example of this would be the typical procrascinator, who know they should be studying, but instead they play games and spend time on basically everything else. Here, we need to be aware of that the sole cause of this is a lack of motivation. So no amount of "come on, you need to study, or you're going to fail and then you drop out of college and be a homeless living under a bridge" will do any help whatsoever. Instead, suggesting to study together would be a much better approach. Take the time to come up with a schedule that's convenient for the both of you. They can't possibly procrascinate while you're sitting in the library and all that is in front of you are your books. This is what I call 'emotional leading'. You use your influence on the other person to follow you, instead of trying to convince them. Meanwhile, putting some emphasys on how much you think they have a lot of potential inside of them which is only waiting to be released is a good policy too. DON'T, however use outer motivation like "if you study, I'm going to give you a beer", it might have the desired effect in short terms, but it completely screws up the entire process because studying still won't be an "inner" necessity, rather and "outer" one, and the moment the "outer" factor diminishes, so will the motivation. When you study together it is different because there it is a social and positive emotion attached to the process of studying itself, not just to the mere act of it.

    I hope this explenation was plausible and comprehendable, if you need help with specific situations though I might look into that too. I don't promise that I can give you a working solution though, since I don't exactly know the person or persons involved, and I need to put them into a vague general context, but in terms of psychology, "generals" are usually flawed. They are only guidances not solutions.

    Peace.

    EDIT: Oh, just for the record, before anyone thinks I'm micromanaging all my friends, I don't do it. I don't have the time or energy to do that, and I prefer letting people living their own lives anyway. I usually only jump in when they are planning on something extremely stupid that might have long-term negative effects.
    Last edited by InStinct; 11-25-2014 at 10:14 AM. Reason: quotation error, typo, additions
    I wanted to write something here, but then I came to the conclusion that in the term "periferial nerve" the word "periferial" is redundant, and I forgot it.

  5. #15
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    InStinct-
    'Well, it sure takes a lot of patience....
    Emotions can be very stubborn and difficult to control in such situations for the individual themselves, let alone for an outsider like us....
    You need to get to an emotional level and understand not only the cause of the emotion and the current state, but also the nature of it. And the nature of it is actually really fragile most of the time...
    I hope this explenation was plausible and comprehendable....'

    I can see through your further explanation an idea of just how much patience and effort it takes to emotionally reach many others, and that might be part of my personal problem- I'm too lazy lol

    I understand your comment about requiring an emotional level to understand, however that seems to be where I am lost. I am easily able to identify and see all the input, emotions, and data that can lead up the the emotional state and nature of the current outlook. I also more times than not can..,sense or pick up on the actual emotions, feeling them in an empathetic state if you will. What I do not understand is even with my own emotions, once I examine them, see all the input and facts, the emotion itself becomes....separate I think is the only word choice I can think of. The emotions are still there but the idea of choosing decisions or behaviors without identifying the manipulative nature of the current pulsing emotion is....bizarre. Again I find myself at a loss for words in describing how confused and disturbed the idea makes me. I truly don't understand how someone could function this way. Looking at my posted comment and the points of view I am referring to here, I realize that I might be wasting your time and need to research sensing vs intuition and thinking vs feeling as in how the opposite individuals truly function. I began to suspect that I may never actually 'understand', regardless of how much information I know. The solution might be to avoid and allow those I don't understand to live separately from myself, much as they seem to prefer me to do.

    And yes- I found your explanation exquisitely informative, detailed and clear. Thank you for your input I appreciate it.
    Last edited by ryiker; 11-26-2014 at 01:31 PM. Reason: quote error

  6. #16
    Junior Member InStinct's Avatar
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    @ryiker

    It is a remarkable and marvelous thing how differently humans perceive and live in this world. I don't really find it annoying, rather very interesting. I like getting to know different people. I know it's not really an intraverted feature, but I'm still confident about my intraversion because I still need my 'alone time' to replenish. I don't really care much about 'avarage people'. You know the type that just lives their life, do their jobs, and that is all. I don't have a problem with them, but they usually don't become a close friend of mine because there is nothing 'interesting' in them. But regardless of their mbti type and their personalities there are interesting people everywhere and I like being around them, getting to know them, understand them, analyze them, and build a relationship with them so that both of us can benefit from the thoughts and views of the other. Throughout my latest years especially here at the university I have met so many different kinds of people that perhaps this is what helps me understand many of them the most.

    I'm not saying by all means that I like everyone. Of course not. There are people who really do nothing but damage to their environment and use others, I have no interest in them, but just because someone is the more emotional, less thinking type, I'm not going to discard them, as long as I see that they are compassionate for life and they care about others. In fact I can and I did learn from these types a lot. Sometimes, this emotional drive is actually a lot more useful than the usual rational thoughts.

    You know, like when someone has a kind of problem and they come to you to tell you. Your rationality is thinking "How do I help them? What should I say? What can I do?" And in the end it's all counterproductive because all they really need at that point is a listener and probably a warm hug. They don't really want you to fix them, just to understand and emphatise with their problems. They don't need you to tell them where they went wrong or what they should do, they'll figure it out on their own once they're through their crysis. This is actually the type of situation that no amount of reading and whatever else can help you in figuring out. Only by getting to know more people, seeing more different approaches and solutions, and learning the applications can help you deal with it, /except for some kind of INFJ or something similar of course, who are naturally good at this/.

    Try keeping your mind as open as possible, you're an INTP as well, you should have an open mind to reach your full potential.

    Peace.
    I wanted to write something here, but then I came to the conclusion that in the term "periferial nerve" the word "periferial" is redundant, and I forgot it.

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