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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    About the Si thing, how come?
    Si instead of Ni because Si is all about the internalized physical world. Se-users are concerned about exhilarating physical experience, but also react most strongly to pain. They are able to compensate for this through Si-ignoring, in effect de-realizing their physical selves in favor of oneness with environs.

    Si is about your impressionistic, internalized view of the sensations. They don't merge with their environment, they want to be at peace with their physical self, ergo they would be more concerned with relaxing sounds and imagery.

    IMO intuition hardly interacts with the environment at all. I have said in the past that intuition deals in "pure, refined information," but others have countered saying that this would make it based on principles whereas Ni-users say they have dealt in vibes. Vibes are information, though. They aren't interacting with the environment as can be seen through the senses.
    Think of it this way: Noun:verb::sensing:intuition.
    N is about what is done, observing changes to differentiate information.
    S is about the props, players involved, and what they physically are.

    So S isn't about "scratching the surface" and only seeing "what is done, without concern to how." Intuition deals in changes, the way I see it. Some aspects of Sensing might actually be harder to define because a color, for instance, cannot be understood until one has seen the color before. It can be described, but it takes S to experience it. All that stuff you heard about Si being dogmatic is from butthurt ISFPs who think they're INTJs.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Si instead of Ni because Si is all about the internalized physical world. Se-users are concerned about exhilarating physical experience, but also react most strongly to pain. They are able to compensate for this through Si-ignoring, in effect de-realizing their physical selves in favor of oneness with environs.

    Si is about your impressionistic, internalized view of the sensations. They don't merge with their environment, they want to be at peace with their physical self, ergo they would be more concerned with relaxing sounds and imagery.

    IMO intuition hardly interacts with the environment at all. I have said in the past that intuition deals in "pure, refined information," but others have countered saying that this would make it based on principles whereas Ni-users say they have dealt in vibes. Vibes are information, though. They aren't interacting with the environment as can be seen through the senses.
    Think of it this way: Noun:verb::sensing:intuition.
    N is about what is done, observing changes to differentiate information.
    S is about the props, players involved, and what they physically are.

    So S isn't about "scratching the surface" and only seeing "what is done, without concern to how." Intuition deals in changes, the way I see it. Some aspects of Sensing might actually be harder to define because a color, for instance, cannot be understood until one has seen the color before. It can be described, but it takes S to experience it. All that stuff you heard about Si being dogmatic is from butthurt ISFPs who think they're INTJs.
    Agreed.

    I would further expand upon Intuition to be assumption and Sensing to be facing reality.

    If N = Assumption and S = Reality, and I = Subjectivity and E = Objectivity, then:

    Si = Subjective Reality (Personalizing reality, "This cloud looks kind of like a person")
    Se = Objective Reality (What's actually real. "This object is round, we can tell because of its curvature", relies primarily on visual sense)

    Ni = Subjective Assumption (Personalizing assumptions "I think the reason why he's angry all of the time is because his father might have been extremely critical and strict when he was younger*)
    Ne = Objective Assumption (What's actually possible (Realistic assumptions), We might be able to fix this problem if we could deploy people here, here, and here and have them do this, this, and that, or we could deploy them in this area of the project...")

    *Assuming that the Ni-user depicted here has no citable evidence that he, in fact, grew up in a rough family.

    (Hopefully this conversation right now will lead to where I think it might be going, so I can discuss the hero, the anima/animus, the opposing personality, and the daemon)

  3. #43
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Si instead of Ni because Si is all about the internalized physical world. Se-users are concerned about exhilarating physical experience, but also react most strongly to pain. They are able to compensate for this through Si-ignoring, in effect de-realizing their physical selves in favor of oneness with environs.
    How did you deduce that their strong Se gives them a relatively stronger reaction to pain? Actually their stronger Se relative to their Si would mean they do not allow sensory data from physical environment seep into their self but they rather let that data wash over them...They navigate in that data...(So that means they would register less pain and can ignore internal bodily sensations?)

    If physical sensory information was like water, an Si user would be like a sponge that can hold enormous amounts of water...Whereas an Se user would be...I don't know...a fish?

    A strong Si-user would OTOH be more developed in registering and identifying internal sensory data (bodily functions, like hunger pain?) and recording external sensory data (rather than navigating and manipulating it) perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    Si is about your impressionistic, internalized view of the sensations. They don't merge with their environment, they want to be at peace with their physical self, ergo they would be more concerned with relaxing sounds and imagery.
    I think they would relatively be more adapt at registering heavier loads of incoming sensory data...They would not necessarily be disturbed by it...Someone with inferior Se would be more vulnerable/allergic to heavy loads of sensory data...Likewise, someone with inferior Si would be vulnerable/allergic to (or clumsy about) recording and recalling sensory data (memory perhaps) as well extremely sensitive (paranoid?) about internal bodily functions/impulses (like low threshold for hunger, pain etc...)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    I think Ni in Ni-dom is synthesizing, into essential patterns, the data gathered thru external functions...i.e. Fe and Se in INFJs and Te and Se in INTJs...I do not know what you exactly mean by pure refined information...but perhaps it is something similar to what I mean by "patterns

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    So S isn't about "scratching the surface" and only seeing "what is done, without concern to how." Intuition deals in changes, the way I see it. Some aspects of Sensing might actually be harder to define because a color, for instance, cannot be understood until one has seen the color before. It can be described, but it takes S to experience it. All that stuff you heard about Si being dogmatic is from butthurt ISFPs who think they're INTJs.
    Ni deals in identifying and matching "repeating patterns"...I don't know the thing about Si being dogmatic (didn't you mention it before?)...So I still think my low tolerance for high external stimuli is about my inferior Se...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    .
    I am not entirely sure on this but:

    If N function is like a submarine...Ni is a passive sonar that listens to the sounds in the environment and makes a guess about the location of the object after gathering enough data whereas, Ne is an active sonar that sends out sound wave packets to the environment and listens for reflecting sounds...In this analogy, N user cannot use sight because he/she is in the submarine and underwater...

    So both Ni and Ne are trying to see the outline of an external object without using sigh...(sight and sound are both sensory data so they may be confusing in this analogy but let's just consider using sight to see an object as the conventional method, and using sound for the same purpose the non-conventional)...

    Ni is guessing whereas Ne is using trial and error? Ni is synthesizing the patterns gathered from the environment whereas Ne is simulating the patterns? Based on this description both methods seem to be subjective...they rely on pattern data gathered from the environment...

    ???

  4. #44
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    How did you deduce that their strong Se gives them a relatively stronger reaction to pain? Actually their stronger Se relative to their Si would mean they do not allow sensory data from physical environment seep into their self but they rather let that data wash over them...They navigate in that data...(So that means they would register less pain and can ignore internal bodily sensations?)

    If physical sensory information was like water, an Si user would be like a sponge that can hold enormous amounts of water...Whereas an Se user would be...I don't know...a fish?

    A strong Si-user would OTOH be more developed in registering and identifying internal sensory data (bodily functions, like hunger pain?) and recording external sensory data (rather than navigating and manipulating it) perhaps?



    I think they would relatively be more adapt at registering heavier loads of incoming sensory data...They would not necessarily be disturbed by it...Someone with inferior Se would be more vulnerable/allergic to heavy loads of sensory data...Likewise, someone with inferior Si would be vulnerable/allergic to (or clumsy about) recording and recalling sensory data (memory perhaps) as well extremely sensitive (paranoid?) about internal bodily functions/impulses (like low threshold for hunger, pain etc...)?



    I think Ni in Ni-dom is synthesizing, into essential patterns, the data gathered thru external functions...i.e. Fe and Se in INFJs and Te and Se in INTJs...I do not know what you exactly mean by pure refined information...but perhaps it is something similar to what I mean by "patterns



    Ni deals in identifying and matching "repeating patterns"...I don't know the thing about Si being dogmatic (didn't you mention it before?)...So I still think my low tolerance for high external stimuli is about my inferior Se...



    I am not entirely sure on this but:

    If N function is like a submarine...Ni is a passive sonar that listens to the sounds in the environment and makes a guess about the location of the object after gathering enough data whereas, Ne is an active sonar that sends out sound wave packets to the environment and listens for reflecting sounds...In this analogy, N user cannot use sight because he/she is in the submarine and underwater...

    So both Ni and Ne are trying to see the outline of an external object without using sigh...(sight and sound are both sensory data so they may be confusing in this analogy but let's just consider using sight to see an object as the conventional method, and using sound for the same purpose the non-conventional)...

    Ni is guessing whereas Ne is using trial and error? Ni is synthesizing the patterns gathered from the environment whereas Ne is simulating the patterns? Based on this description both methods seem to be subjective...they rely on pattern data gathered from the environment...

    ???
    Let's begin with the fact that we don't use specifically one function, but we use two functions in tandem. In the irrational type, a Perception function is the Hero personality (the dominant slot), it is our lens to discern the world with.

    If your leading perception function is Ne, then your personality is built upon the foundation that you are highly creative and can see all of the ways to approach a problem easily, and thus you perceive the world as a bundle of possibilities, Ne is the Hero. However, since Intuition is assumption and not entirely perception, it must be reinforced by the anima/animus Si. This means that ENxP types see the world through the Ne/Si axis, they see possibilities in the environment, and relate to what those possibilities mean to them specifically. Because Si is the anima/animus to the Ne hero, it is the manifestation of an unconscious goal, which in the Ne-type is to find personal meaning out of reality (Si inf.), and that is the reason why they relate their possibilities to what they mean to them. However, in the shadow personality, there is the opposing axis, Ni/Se. Ni is the opposing personality, and it acts counter to the Hero Ne by attempting to lock on to only one perspective, shutting out the Hero Ne's multiple objective possibilities. The Opposing Ni needs a balance in reality as well, and this is where the ENxP's daemon, or the most destructive part of the personality, lies, and it is Se. Se runs counter to the anima/animus Si and attempts to distract the Hero Ne from achieving its goal of wanting to find meaning in reality by deceiving the Hero into believing that the unconscious goal is to integrate with reality wholly, without any idiosyncratic processing of the real world (Si). Therefore, when the daemon Se shows up in the ENxP's personality, it attempts to destroy the anima/animus and the Hero in favor of the Opposing Ni (Ego destruction). (Often when this happens, ENxP's become obsessed with detail-work and become entirely grounded.)

    If your leading perception function is Ni, then your personality is built upon the foundation that you know the meaning behind things and can see past simple exteriors easily, and thus you perceive the world as a complicated place that needs to be refined into a singular meaning, Ni is the Hero. However, since Intuition is assumption and not entirely perception, it must be reinforced by the anima/animus Se. This means that INxJ types see the world through the Ni/Se axis, and attempt to find the ulterior meaning (Ni) behind the information gathered from the exterior environment (Se). Because Se is the anima/animus to the Ni Hero, it is the manifestation of the unconscious goal, which in the Ni-type is to integrate with reality and experience life wholly (Se inf.). However, in the shadow personality, there is the opposing axis, Ne/Si. Ne is the opposing personality, and it acts counter to the Hero Ni by attempting to punch holes in Ni's master plans ("You aren't considering the other possibilities, but what if this happens?), shutting out the Hero Ni's visions of singular possibilities. The Opposing Ne needs a balance in reality as well, and this is where the INxJ's daemon, or the most destructive part of the personality, lies, and it is Si. Si runs counter to the anima/animus Se and attempts to distract the Hero Ni from achieving its goal of wanting to integrate with reality and experience life wholly by deceiving the Hero into believing that the unconscious goal is to find personal meaning in reality . Therefore, when the daemon Si shows up in the INxJ's personality, it attempts to destroy the anima/animus and the Hero in favor of the Opposing Ne (Ego Destruction). (Often when this happens, INxJs become obsessively haunted by the past and become stubbornly detail-oriented.)


    The Daemon might sound like an insane construct with no grounding in real life, until you realize that in Si-doms, Ni is the daemon, and when Ni appears, the Hero Si believes that they have received actual spiritual guidance and/or a message from God to accomplish something. (Because of how foreign and alien Ni is to them). The Daemon is the most rejected part of the personality, and that is because it is the opposite of the anima/animus, which is the opposite of the Hero. The Hero is you, The Opposing personality is your "sharp weapon" that you use to poke holes in others or yourself, the Anima/Animus is your weak, innocent side, and the Daemon is the "blunt weapon" that you use to break others and yourself.

    http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive...ebe-model.html
    Last edited by Alea_iacta_est; 02-23-2014 at 06:13 PM. Reason: forgot an important word

  5. #45
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    MEEE!

    There, I typed it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    If your leading perception function is Ne, then your personality is built upon the foundation that you are highly creative and can see all of the ways to approach a problem easily, and thus you perceive the world as a bundle of possibilities, Ne is the Hero. However, since Intuition is assumption and not entirely perception, it must be reinforced by the anima/animus Si. This means that ENxP types see the world through the Ne/Si axis, they see possibilities in the environment, and relate to what those possibilities mean to them specifically. Because Si is the anima/animus to the Ne hero, it is the manifestation of an unconscious goal, which in the Ne-type is to find personal meaning out of reality (Si inf.), and that is the reason why they relate their possibilities to what they mean to them. However, in the shadow personality, there is the opposing axis, Ni/Se. Ni is the opposing personality, and it acts counter to the Hero Ne by attempting to lock on to only one perspective, shutting out the Hero Ne's multiple objective possibilities. The Opposing Ni needs a balance in reality as well, and this is where the ENxP's daemon, or the most destructive part of the personality, lies, and it is Se. Se runs counter to the anima/animus Si and attempts to distract the Hero Ne from achieving its goal of wanting to find meaning in reality by deceiving the Hero into believing that the unconscious goal is to integrate with reality wholly, without any idiosyncratic processing of the real world (Si). Therefore, when the daemon Se shows up in the ENxP's personality, it attempts to destroy the anima/animus and the Hero in favor of the Opposing Ni (Ego destruction). (Often when this happens, ENxP's become obsessed with detail-work and become entirely grounded.)

    http://personalitycafe.com/cognitive...ebe-model.html
    Could this make an ENP look like an SJ, because of such rigid attention to detail in times of trouble?

  7. #47
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    I couldn't put this into context...How does this relate to my inclination towards harmonious music and serene imagery being related more with Si than Ni? And N being an assumption and S being reality...?

    I think that info you provided talks about what happens when our usual self crumbles/degenerates under extreme stress (such as a nervous breakdown, anxiety, panic attack etc.)...Our shadow self (our functions that usually do not come into play, dark side of the moon) emerges into light...

    So under extreme stress, an INTJ acts like a clumsy caricature of an ENTP (a bizarro ENTP), an INFJ like an ENFP, an ENFP like an INFJ...?

    A bizarro ENTP may be someone who thinks he/she is superior/fabulous/charming whereas he/she looks/acts (is perceived) nothing like that by external observers or someone who thinks he's come up with an innovative idea that'd solve the stressing issue at hand?

    A bizarro ENFP could be someone who keeps lashing out at people that cause him/her stress?

    A bizarro INFJ could be someone who succumbs to delusions and paranoid thoughts about people that cause him/her stress?

  8. #48
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    If physical sensory information was like water, an Si user would be like a sponge that can hold enormous amounts of water...Whereas an Se user would be...I don't know...a fish?

  9. #49
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    I took a Keirsey test in Career Development. 90% of us got xSFJ.

    My ENTJ teacher, though, had some interesting input. She said I seemed convinced that I was right, regardless of others' opinions. She still noticed the connection-making we attribute to Ne, but she figured I was J because apparently I had my own way of thinking how things should be, that they should be a certain way.

    Thoughts? Because this pretty much blasts everything else up here clear out of the airfield.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilogen View Post
    I took a Keirsey test in Career Development. 90% of us got xSFJ.

    My ENTJ teacher, though, had some interesting input. She said I seemed convinced that I was right, regardless of others' opinions. She still noticed the connection-making we attribute to Ne, but she figured I was J because apparently I had my own way of thinking how things should be, that they should be a certain way.

    Thoughts? Because this pretty much blasts everything else up here clear out of the airfield.
    Thinking how things should be is a quality of all intuitives (and some sensors), ascribing it to the flawed J/P dichotomy is an error.

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