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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I had the same struggle for 3 years! I bolded the NF items that I relate to also. I finally had to come to the realization, that for practical purposes, regardless of what is going on inside my soul, the me that everybody sees on the outside is the one that I mostly am.
    You know that Fi is the tertiary for INTJ? So it's very common for mature INTJs to have that inner sense and desire for meaning, purpose, and pursuit of personal values?

    (Does that fit at all in how you see yourself?)

    The last sentence is good -- something for introverts to take into account. I have a "me" I know; but the "me" that others know and think about is merely the "me" they see from the outside. To them, that "me" is what is real. And in a sense, it is.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Hello, and welcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    You know that Fi is the tertiary for INTJ? So it's very common for mature INTJs to have that inner sense and desire for meaning, purpose, and pursuit of personal values?
    That's very appropriate for you to point out since I am older, but I have been that way ever since I was a young teen.
    Of course I have no way of knowing, but I sometimes wonder if I would have been an F if my ISTJ mother had not squeezed me into her mold.

    (Does that fit at all in how you see yourself?)
    Yes. That's why I believe somehow I have NF motivations on the inside of that on I see. When Keirsey talks about the NF in Please Understand Me, I feel like he is describing me to a great degree: "the search for self"... the aim of the NF is "becoming"... "his purpose in life is to have a purpose in life"... "He hungers for self-actualization." ... "To be a grain of sand lost on a beach with millions of other grains is to be nothing." "to communicate authentically"... "writers who wish to inspire" - those are just some excerpts that reflect my feelings.

    The last sentence is good -- something for introverts to take into account. I have a "me" I know; but the "me" that others know and think about is merely the "me" they see from the outside. To them, that "me" is what is real. And in a sense, it is.
    Well, thanks. When push came to shove, no matter how much I felt like I could relate to the NF motivations, I realized that the world saw a tactless, brutally honest INTJ.

  4. #24
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Aside from the fact we are all individuals and might not conform to pattern, even within the theory itself types possess functions that belong more fully to other types.

    INFP = Fi + Ne + Si + Te (for example)
    Ya, thats why I found INTJ an interesting idea since they have both Ni and Fi in their normal functions whereas with INFP, INTP or INFJ either Fi or Ni will be a shadow function and its hard to reconcile the idea that one of the two traits I think I use most is a shadow function (but if that can be explained with some theory, IN_P does seem the most probable other than that)

    There is a good thread going on right now about Ne, you could read that and see if anything gels with you.
    Sounds interesting, I'll look for it shortly.

    This is more Ti at work. Te is really about extroverting the thinking process and applying it to the outer reality. To a Te, the basic gist is that an idea is NOT being thought about unless it is being implemented in some way; that's part of how the thinking is actually done. It cannot be so easily detached from the environment, unlike Ti which can sit in its own inner world and model reality and play with that model instead.
    Just some ideas for you.
    Ti seems pretty clear to me, but thinking of examples of Te is still difficult. If I open up a spreadsheet with only a rough idea of what I want it to do and then start throwing formulas together til I get it to do what I want, is that an example of Te?

    Thanks again.

  5. #25
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    Ti seems pretty clear to me, but thinking of examples of Te is still difficult. If I open up a spreadsheet with only a rough idea of what I want it to do and then start throwing formulas together til I get it to do what I want, is that an example of Te?
    I wouldn't think so... that sounds more like Ne than Te. Te is more organized... let me try to explain. Te is a function that mostly sees and creates external rules and systems for things. Te would cringe at having only a rough idea, it would want to know exactly how to do whatever it was planning to do. Ti would most likely want to understand how whatever it was dealing with worked, regardless of what it was planning to do with it. Ne sounds most like what you described, I think.

    Do those make sense to everyone else?

  6. #26
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    That's very appropriate for you to point out since I am older, but I have been that way ever since I was a young teen.
    That sounds very similar to me (early 30s for me). I think I've become less and less NT like with age, but the theory is that we never really change, we have the development seed we are born with and just evolve and grow differently. So, either I was born to be an NF and didnt realize it til my teens, or I was born to be an NT and I've been fighting it for over half my life.

    I finally had to come to the realization, that for practical purposes, regardless of what is going on inside my soul, the me that everybody sees on the outside is the one that I mostly am.
    This is where I seem the think quite differently. To me how others see me is irrelevant to who I actually am. It may be just a theory, but I think if I can find a type that actually is a fit I'm comfortable with, pursuing the strengths of that type that I may have previously neglected will lead to less stress from living my life in a way that may be contrary to my true being as well as opening up new paths for further personal growth. (ya, that sounds kinda cheesy, but thats the optimist/idealist side of me trying to articulate its vision. )

    Yes. That's why I believe somehow I have NF motivations on the inside of that on I see. When Keirsey talks about the NF in Please Understand Me, I feel like he is describing me to a great degree: "the search for self"... the aim of the NF is "becoming"... "his purpose in life is to have a purpose in life"... "He hungers for self-actualization." ... "To be a grain of sand lost on a beach with millions of other grains is to be nothing." "to communicate authentically"... "writers who wish to inspire" - those are just some excerpts that reflect my feelings.

    Well, thanks. When push came to shove, no matter how much I felt like I could relate to the NF motivations, I realized that the world saw a tactless, brutally honest INTJ.
    This quote is from another site I've been reading, but it made a lot of sense to me and its what I've been using as the basis for some of my self analysis. (if I were to take my own advice there, I would have ruled out NT by now, but my strange alternate theories keep it as an option for now)

    (from INFJ or INFP? a closer look)
    Take care when investigating Temperament not to be "additive" about the descriptions. Go at it with a mindset of what you can't live without. In other words, Theorists are not people who crave a unique identity and meaning and significance in their lives who coincidentally are trying to accumulate knowledge. And vice-versa for Catalysts! You must decide which values you can't live without. Let's face it -- many people accumulate knowledge and seek meaning in their lives. The key is to determine what you must have in order to live. As Dr. Berens says, Theorists would be psychologically dead if they could not pursue knowledge, and Catalysts would be psychologically dead if they could not pursue meaning. So don't consider what you would like -- consider what would destroy you if you couldn't have it anymore (or you pursue it so reflexively that it's automatic).

  7. #27
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I wouldn't think so... that sounds more like Ne than Te. Te is more organized... let me try to explain. Te is a function that mostly sees and creates external rules and systems for things. Te would cringe at having only a rough idea, it would want to know exactly how to do whatever it was planning to do. Ti would most likely want to understand how whatever it was dealing with worked, regardless of what it was planning to do with it. Ne sounds most like what you described, I think.

    Do those make sense to everyone else?
    So...

    Te would make a flowchart or blueprints then build according to that?
    Ti would design it in their mind then move to a Ne or Te process (or explain their idea to a Te)?

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    So... Te would make a flowchart or blueprints then build according to that? Ti would design it in their mind then move to a Ne or Te process (or explain their idea to a Te)?
    Well, the thing to remember is that Ti does not HAVE to implement. It is perfectly happy with designing and defining everything. Because that is what matters. Implementation is irrelevant to Ti, because Ti is focused on DEFINING something -- in describing its essence, or seeing a general strategy involved.

    Ti can also make flowcharts and blueprints; that is merely part of a design process. It is not implementation.

    If you think in terms of programming, Ti is very much like doing pseudocode, and creating objects in OOP. Te is very much like taking that pseudocode and following established logical steps to turn it into real code.

    Checklists, powering through situations to implement an idea, the specifics involved in implementing the idea, accomplishing objectives is Te. Ti is more about deciding the broad objectives and making sure the strategy is internally coherent/consistent; but it does not care as much about the specifics of accomplishing the objective, as long as the theory is coherent.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    That's very appropriate for you to point out since I am older, but I have been that way ever since I was a young teen.
    Of course I have no way of knowing, but I sometimes wonder if I would have been an F if my ISTJ mother had not squeezed me into her mold.
    I don't know. That is easily something to consider. An ISTJ mother is also a very considerable force to her children.

    Yes. That's why I believe somehow I have NF motivations on the inside of that on I see. When Keirsey talks about the NF in Please Understand Me, I feel like he is describing me to a great degree: "the search for self"... the aim of the NF is "becoming"... "his purpose in life is to have a purpose in life"... "He hungers for self-actualization." ... "To be a grain of sand lost on a beach with millions of other grains is to be nothing." "to communicate authentically"... "writers who wish to inspire" - those are just some excerpts that reflect my feelings.
    I think it is a little tricky in the sense that no one is "pure." MBTI is just theory, and all the functions are delineated/polarized simply for ease of comparison and definition, but I think real human being are more complicated/gray/muddy in that we each have access to all the functions and aren't necessarily a stereotype.

    I have the same issue with my own MBTI reading. I know how I work internally (and it is very T), and I know how I compare to INFPs around me (they are much more tender-hearted in real life, compared to me in the discussions I have with them), but I still have always had a great deal of empathy for a desire for self-actualization and purpose, a desire to be unique and stand out as different, a love for inspiring people to do things. So I am like a soulmate for NFs but do not process things the way they do.

    To me, honestly, this just seems to be merged with the Ti -- which is interested in defining things. I just happen to be interested in "defining people." Which leads into chasing after NF concerns, just in a slightly different way than they do.

    Well, thanks. When push came to shove, no matter how much I felt like I could relate to the NF motivations, I realized that the world saw a tactless, brutally honest INTJ.
    From the outside, I would not have had a reason to question your INTJ reading. But parents have a profound influence on children. I know that aspects of Fe were ingrained in me as a child, so that I could recognize and empathize with good "etiquette" and other typical Feeling concerns. So sometimes it is very hard to tell where our "parents end and we begin," so to speak!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    An ISTJ mother is also a very considerable force to her children.
    "Force" is definitely the operative word in my situation.

    I have the same issue with my own MBTI reading. I know how I work internally (and it is very T), and I know how I compare to INFPs around me (they are much more tender-hearted in real life, compared to me in the discussions I have with them), but I still have always had a great deal of empathy for a desire for self-actualization and purpose, a desire to be unique and stand out as different, a love for inspiring people to do things. So I am like a soulmate for NFs but do not process things the way they do.
    I can relate to most of this.
    Thanks for your input.
    I'm glad you're here.

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    "Force" is definitely the operative word in my situation.
    That made me laugh out loud.
    (Thank goodness no one else's really at work here yet.)

    I can relate to most of this.
    Thanks for your input.
    I'm glad you're here.
    And you as well.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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