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Thread: Hello, everyone

  1. #31
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    You seem to share an alarming number of my traits, regardless of what type you are. Are you sure you're not trying to make yourself sound like me on purpose?
    And how, exactly, would I be doing that - knowing you so well as I do?

    What I find interesting is that we're so apparently similar, yet you're convinced you're a J and J/P is the one axis I'm most without clue on.

    and introvert perception (avoiding obligations ahead of time rather than blowing them off later on when they become inconvienent).
    You're going ot have to explain to me how avoiding obligations = introverting perception. Actually, while I fully understand hoe judging could be extraverted (doing/changing/implementing) or introverted (analysing/investigating/organising conceptually), I don't really get what introverted perception is supposed to be. Perception, by nature, should be something that connects to the outside world?

    I do, too... unless I feel that I might lose something if I wait.
    It's less stressful for me to let an opportunity pass because I waited too long to make a decision than to be forced to make a decision before I'm ready to do so. I'm more likely to regret locking myself into something prematurely than I am to regret missing an opportunity.

    My attitude is more "stay out of the way and don't get involved," most of the time. I mostly try to just keep to myself and take care of the aspects of a situation that concern me, like the tasks I've been assigned, etc.
    This is also very true of me. Introversion messes with things a bit, though - Js implement/do, act on their ideas and convictions, but EJs are a lot more inclined to do so, particularly when it involves other people, because they're outwardly and people focused more than are IJs. IJs, however, do differ from IPs in that an IJ will conceptualise and be driven to implement their ideas, whereas an IP is more of an observer, happy to understand and not implement. One thing that is said of INTPs, at least, is that they're happy knowing that they could do something, and feel no need to actually do it.

    Also, because J is active in this way, Js may be more interested in what is practical, what works, and so forth, in their theorising. Ps, being perceivers, are more interested in truth. At least, this is supposed to be true of INTJ and INTP, the two types I've researched most thoroughly, it may not be generalisable. But INTJ allegedly asks 'does it work?', and discards what doesn't, whereas INTP asks 'is it true?'

  2. #32
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    And how, exactly, would I be doing that - knowing you so well as I do?
    Ah, well, I don't know. I guess you couldn't be.

    What I find interesting is that we're so apparently similar, yet you're convinced you're a J and J/P is the one axis I'm most without clue on.
    Yes... I find that interesting as well.
    You're going ot have to explain to me how avoiding obligations = introverting perception. Actually, while I fully understand hoe judging could be extraverted (doing/changing/implementing) or introverted (analysing/investigating/organising conceptually), I don't really get what introverted perception is supposed to be. Perception, by nature, should be something that connects to the outside world?
    Well, yes. But Introverted perception tends to focus on information in terms of how it relates to oneself and one's interests, or could affect oneself. It also tends to see things coming up ahead, and is somewhat more future oriented. Extraverted perception works by actually expressing or acting on perceptions and testing them out, rather than observing.

    It's less stressful for me to let an opportunity pass because I waited too long to make a decision than to be forced to make a decision before I'm ready to do so. I'm more likely to regret locking myself into something prematurely than I am to regret missing an opportunity.
    Actually, you're right again. I hate the idea of locking myself into something, and I allow myself to miss a lot of opportunities as a result (which is something I think annoys NPs). I meant more in terms of losing something very important... not just any old thing.
    This is also very true of me. Introversion messes with things a bit, though - Js implement/do, act on their ideas and convictions, but EJs are a lot more inclined to do so, particularly when it involves other people, because they're outwardly and people focused more than are IJs. IJs, however, do differ from IPs in that an IJ will conceptualise and be driven to implement their ideas, whereas an IP is more of an observer, happy to understand and not implement. One thing that is said of INTPs, at least, is that they're happy knowing that they could do something, and feel no need to actually do it.

    Also, because J is active in this way, Js may be more interested in what is practical, what works, and so forth, in their theorising. Ps, being perceivers, are more interested in truth. At least, this is supposed to be true of INTJ and INTP, the two types I've researched most thoroughly, it may not be generalisable. But INTJ allegedly asks 'does it work?', and discards what doesn't, whereas INTP asks 'is it true?'
    Drivenness may be more a TJ thing than an FJ thing, actually. I'm definitely more passive than your average TJ.

    I tend to feel conflicted between "does it work" and "is it true" often, actually. It's important to me that things be accurate... but it's also important that they're functional. I try to ensure that things I'm concerned with are both if I can. And which one I'm willing to sacrifice if I must compromise on one depends heavily on the nature of the situation.

    I tend to go with what works if I can do so without feeling like I'm getting trapped in something, or compromising myself in some way.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    Well, yes. But Introverted perception tends to focus on information in terms of how it relates to oneself and one's interests, or could affect oneself. It also tends to see things coming up ahead, and is somewhat more future oriented. Extraverted perception works by actually expressing or acting on perceptions and testing them out, rather than observing
    Interesting. I don't know where I fit into that, then. I did think acting on perceptions had more to do with judging functions and J/P than on the kind of N or S a person was using, though - I'm not used to thinking of the perceiving functions as active that way.

    Actually, you're right again. I hate the idea of locking myself into something, and I allow myself to miss a lot of opportunities as a result (which is something I think annoys NPs). I meant more in terms of losing something very important... not just any old thing.
    This sounds very P to me. Js love closure, and find it easy to lock things in. They feel comfortable when things are decided, so they decide quickly. Ps like to leave things open, leaving themselves a way out or the chance to do something else instead should they want to.

    About losing something important - well, that obviously changes things. No one, P or J, likes to do that. There will be circumstances in which the strongest P will prefer to lock themselves in than to miss an opportunity if it means losing something extremely valuable. But what you're like generally, when more normal, day-to-day stakes are involved, probably tells you more about your type.

    Drivenness may be more a TJ thing than an FJ thing, actually. I'm definitely more passive than your average TJ.
    I think I am, too - only I'm sure I'm not an F, which is partly why I think I'm a P. I must admit I'm not as familiar with the F types, though I can certainly see Te being more active than Fe - or at least more obviously active.

    I tend to feel conflicted between "does it work" and "is it true" often, actually. It's important to me that things be accurate... but it's also important that they're functional. I try to ensure that things are both if I can. And which one I'm willing to sacrifice if I must compromise on one depends heavily on the nature of the situation.

    I tend to go with what works if I can do so without feeling like I'm getting trapped in something, or compromising myself in some way.
    Very interesting. I don't really get the 'does it work' line at all - I'm definitely more interested in whether something is true. It can be quite impractical, and because of that, it's frustrating. I tend to be quite unrealistically idealistic when it comes to people and systems - I can see ways in which a system doesn't work, and I design an ideal system to replace it. But, because people are the way people are, and they're so varied, such simple systems would never be functional. Essentially, I understand the need for functionality, but I find it frustrating and prefer to leave it to other people to deal with. And I generally think that truth/accuracy is more important than applied functionality.

    A question on truth versus practicality: would you prefer to learn an accurate but complex conceptual system designed to explain some real-world phenomenon, or a simple, innaccurate, but still predictively valid conceptual system designed to explain it?

  4. #34
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    Interesting. I don't know where I fit into that, then. I did think acting on perceptions had more to do with judging functions and J/P than on the kind of N or S a person was using, though - I'm not used to thinking of the perceiving functions as active that way.
    I think all Extraverted functions are active to some degree.


    This sounds very P to me. Js love closure, and find it easy to lock things in. They feel comfortable when things are decided, so they decide quickly. Ps like to leave things open, leaving themselves a way out or the chance to do something else instead should they want to.
    Well, yes, I'm like that... but I thought Ps didn't think ahead like that. I always thought deciding quickly was impulsiveness and flexibility... which, of course, I'm not that great at.

    About losing something important - well, that obviously changes things. No one, P or J, likes to do that. There will be circumstances in which the strongest P will prefer to lock themselves in than to miss an opportunity if it means losing something extremely valuable. But what you're like generally, when more normal, day-to-day stakes are involved, probably tells you more about your type.
    You might have a point there.

    I think I am, too - only I'm sure I'm not an F, which is partly why I think I'm a P. I must admit I'm not as familiar with the F types, though I can certainly see Te being more active than Fe - or at least more obviously active.
    If it helps, IxFJs supposedly have the weakest feeling preference of the F types. It's auxiliary, and extraverted... meaning it's the most "diluted." I'm not sure how much I trust the theory that posited this to me at this point, though.
    Very interesting. I don't really get the 'does it work' line at all - I'm definitely more interested in whether something is true. It can be quite impractical, and because of that, it's frustrating. I tend to be quite unrealistically idealistic when it comes to people and systems - I can see ways in which a system doesn't work, and I design an ideal system to replace it. But, because people are the way people are, and they're so varied, such simple systems would never be functional. Essentially, I understand the need for functionality, but I find it frustrating and prefer to leave it to other people to deal with. And I generally think that truth/accuracy is more important than applied functionality.

    A question on truth versus practicality: would you prefer to learn an accurate but complex conceptual system designed to explain some real-world phenomenon, or a simple, innaccurate, but still predictively valid conceptual system designed to explain it?
    Yes, I know what you mean. I'm often irrationally interested in whether something is true (like my MBTI type). I always blamed that on having tertiary Ti, as I assume a dominant Ti would have a better sense of proportional importance of truths and not use it in such an obsessive, irrational manner as I sometimes do.

    I know the answer to the second question is the first one... accurate and complex. I've gotten terribly irritated with people who do the second one.

    It actually pushed me away from one of my friends for a long time. I got incredibly frustrated with them because they referred to a PM as an e-mail, and said that Socionics and MBTI could be correlated with use of a J/P switch for Introverts (among other, similar things). When I confronted them about that, they claimed it had something to do with the "level of conversation," and that they knew it was wrong. That... really didn't set well with me. The frustration with this kind of thing built and built until I just started drifting away from them, because everytime I spoke to them, I thought about their irritating oversimplifications and generalizations. She was an INTP, actually.

    So... I suppose what I mean is that I prefer for something to work, rather than to have it not work. I prefer ideal systems, of course... but I understand that if they don't work, I can't expect anyone to care about them. So I guess... I prefer to leave it to other people so I don't have to think about it much, either. I'm just saying that if I'm somehow stuck taking care of something I don't particularly want to, I'm willing to do what works.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    Well, yes, I'm like that... but I thought Ps didn't think ahead like that. I always thought deciding quickly was impulsiveness and flexibility... which, of course, I'm not that great at.
    It's not that they don't look ahead at all. Because they don't plan things ahead (i.e. lock things in ahead of time) and like to leave things open, they end up - and prefer, I guess - to make decisions more spontaneously at the time. Js become inflexible about their plans, whereas Ps are actually inflexible in wanting to keep things flexible.

    About truth/functionality - while I do think this is connected to the P/J axis, I was thinking about it, and F versus T could confound it as well. Ts seek objectivity while Fs seek harmony, so while a T will seek what's true more, an F may be evaluating things primarily in terms of how they will affect people - how they will work when applied, in a specific human context. TP, then, is the most truth-seeking (consistent with this being an INTP trait). TJ seeks truth but is tempered by J practicality; FJ is the most inclined toward seeking functionality (as regards people; it's less clear for impersonal issues/systems), and FP, like TJ, concerns implementation (because of F) but also truth (because of P).

    TJ would be more inclined toward systematic/impersonal functionality, and may therefore come across as harsh at times; FP may be focused more on the human side of practicality (does this system work for the people it affects?) and may be seen by TJ as impractical for its failure to take into account impersonal practicality.

    All this could be wrong, of course - untested theory, just thought of it now and all that.

    She was an INTP, actually.
    Wow. So much for MBTI, then...(seriously, INTPs are supposed to be very truth focused, and one of the types most interested in clarity. They're supposed to frequently correct people in casual conversation who use a word with a slightly off shade of meaning, for example).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    It's not that they don't look ahead at all. Because they don't plan things ahead (i.e. lock things in ahead of time) and like to leave things open, they end up - and prefer, I guess - to make decisions more spontaneously at the time. Js become inflexible about their plans, whereas Ps are actually inflexible in wanting to keep things flexible.
    What if you try to lock in place as few things as possible as you need to keep everything else flexible?

    About truth/functionality - while I do think this is connected to the P/J axis, I was thinking about it, and F versus T could confound it as well. Ts seek objectivity while Fs seek harmony, so while a T will seek what's true more, an F may be evaluating things primarily in terms of how they will affect people - how they will work when applied, in a specific human context. TP, then, is the most truth-seeking (consistent with this being an INTP trait). TJ seeks truth but is tempered by J practicality; FJ is the most inclined toward seeking functionality (as regards people; it's less clear for impersonal issues/systems), and FP, like TJ, concerns implementation (because of F) but also truth (because of P).
    Ah, that makes sense in terms of the letters... I've just been exposed to functions so much that it's kind of hard not to think in function terms.
    TJ would be more inclined toward systematic/impersonal functionality, and may therefore come across as harsh at times; FP may be focused more on the human side of practicality (does this system work for the people it affects?) and may be seen by TJ as impractical for its failure to take into account impersonal practicality.

    All this could be wrong, of course - untested theory, just thought of it now and all that.
    It is interesting to see what your perspective is, though. It does make sense to see it that way.
    Wow. So much for MBTI, then...(seriously, INTPs are supposed to be very truth focused, and one of the types most interested in clarity. They're supposed to frequently correct people in casual conversation who use a word with a slightly off shade of meaning, for example).
    I would have thought so too... until I met all these INTPs who refused to spell or punctuate properly, who went around claiming that grammar was "oppressive" or something. They also tended to be annoyingly vague and oversimplified things to ridiculous degrees, lacking the attention span to pay attention to any sort of extended explanation. They tended to decide that words meant whatever they meant by them, etc. They seemed better equipped to deal with esoteric and unknowable philosophical principles than math or language, honestly. They were far better at right-brained thinking than left-brained, I suppose.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    What if you try to lock in place as few things as possible as you need to keep everything else flexible?
    I really don't know. I guess that's borderline territory. You could also put aside what you actually end up doing, and just think about what makes you more comfortable - making solid plans ahead of time, versus leaving things open to decide later.

    They seemed better equipped to deal with esoteric and unknowable philosophical principles than math or language, honestly. They were far better at right-brained thinking than left-brained, I suppose.
    Well, philosophy fits nicely with the INTP perspective, I think. And since they're NTs, you'd expect a bit of left and a bit of right - left from Ti, right from Ne (for some reason, I'm thinking S, T and J correlate with left, N, F and P with right?).

    Ah, that makes sense in terms of the letters... I've just been exposed to functions so much that it's kind of hard not to think in function terms.
    Let's see, in function terms...Ti is really what seeks objectivity/truth. Te may be more about practicality, because it orders things externally? Fe and Fi both look like they have the capacity to head away from truth, though - of the objective, material kind, anyway. Fe is like what I attributed to F, while Fi might be interested more in the ethics of things (i.e. not is it true or does it work, but is it right)? - I only have vague understandings of Fe and Fi though. So TP (P introverting T) is still the most truth seeking; TJ (Te) and FJ (Fe) seek their kinds of practicality, and FP seeks, perhaps, what is ethical...? (really not sure on that last one, or the Fs generally).

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    I really don't know. I guess that's borderline territory. You could also put aside what you actually end up doing, and just think about what makes you more comfortable - making solid plans ahead of time, versus leaving things open to decide later.
    It all depends on how you look at it, doesn't it? That's the thing about MBTI...

    Well, philosophy fits nicely with the INTP perspective, I think. And since they're NTs, you'd expect a bit of left and a bit of right - left from Ti, right from Ne (for some reason, I'm thinking S, T and J correlate with left, N, F and P with right?).
    Yes, that's what I was thinking... Ps are probably too right-brained for the kind of precision that is commonly associated with INTPs in profiles.
    Let's see, in function terms...Ti is really what seeks objectivity/truth. Te may be more about practicality, because it orders things externally? Fe and Fi both look like they have the capacity to head away from truth, though - of the objective, material kind, anyway. Fe is like what I attributed to F, while Fi might be interested more in the ethics of things (i.e. not is it true or does it work, but is it right)? - I only have vague understandings of Fe and Fi though. So TP (P introverting T) is still the most truth seeking; TJ (Te) and FJ (Fe) seek their kinds of practicality, and FP seeks, perhaps, what is ethical...? (really not sure on that last one, or the Fs generally).
    Well, why would Ti and TP be the most truth-seeking, though? Where does that assumption come from? I think whether they are the most truth-seeking would very much depend on what kind of truth you're talking about. Philosophical truth? Probably. Other kinds of understanding? I doubt it.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    Yes, that's what I was thinking... Ps are probably too right-brained for the kind of precision that is commonly associated with INTPs in profiles.
    I don't think P alone is enough to make someone so right brained as to lack precision (if being right brained means lacking precision to begin with). INTPs have both N and P, but allegedly lead with T, balancing them somewhat.

    Well, why would Ti and TP be the most truth-seeking, though? Where does that assumption come from? I think whether they are the most truth-seeking would very much depend on what kind of truth you're talking about. Philosophical truth? Probably. Other kinds of understanding? I doubt it.
    Good question. I may well have a bias toward Ti because A) it's my most used process, and B) I'm probably biased toward philosophical truths as is. Although, it does seem that N and S are less about truth and more about appearance - they simply present information; they don't make judgments about its worth or accuracy. Te and Fe seem less about truth and more about actively ordering/changing things; they're interactive more than discovering. Ti and Fi, then, are the prime candidates for truth-seeking, depending on what kind of truth you're interested in...or so it seems to me.

    It all depends on how you look at it, doesn't it? That's the thing about MBTI...
    Well, yes. There is that. MBTI simply isn't a scientifically rigorous system, so in many cases, there may not be an objective answer.

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    Ti and Te and whatever else may indeed be exactly what you think they are (I neither read your analyses carefully nor fundamentally care), but it doesn't matter if the function application system is broken, does it? Use logic, you know you can. Since there's really nothing to prove that INTPs use Ti more, and INTJs use Te more, it's illogical to decide what type you are based on supposed use of either function. Right? Right.

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