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Thread: Hello, everyone

  1. #21
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    welcome, make yourself at home
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    From the outside, things certainly look that way. INTJ looks more ordered and logical than INTP, and INTP looks more abstract. But if an INTJ has Ni dominant, backed up with Te, then it's the thinking you're actually seeing, because it's extraverted (and it's the intuition you see on an INTP, since for them, that's extraverted).
    That's what the old school would have you believe, but it's false. Judgers prefer Judging, cut and dry. I developed a function system which is closer to socionics than MBTT, the link's in my sig.

    About logic: A preference for Intuition, such as the INTP has, doesn't deflate logical ability. We spend more time perceiving than INTJs, but we still use the thinking function quite a bit to make conclusions.

  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    I definitely understand. As much as I doubt the system, I still feel, perhaps irrationally, that I'd like to know for sure what type I am.
    It sounds like you do understand perfectly.

    Welcome to the mess that is my is-it-a-J-or-a-P self.


    The P/J. I'm certain of I and N, and T is also strong (although I have a reasonably well developed F of some kind as well). But I have J and P traits - I plan ahead/organise for some things, and actively resist scheduling for others. It depends on a lot. I think I lean toward P, though - I put off making decisions as long as I can, I always want to wait for more information before making decisions, and I'm happy to remain agnostic on most issues while I continue investigation.
    Well, if you're using it that loosely, then I'm not certain of P/J either. I call myself a J because I'm not impulsive, prefer to know what I'm getting myself into before I go into a situation, and like to do things on time, have some predictability in my environment, etc. Another big reason is that I don't have a self-image of being chaotic, obsessed with individualistic self-expression, or rebellious, which most people who type themselves as Ps tend to have. I tend to get tasks done on time and follow directions well.

    I'm also not very adaptable/spontaneous in my responses to situations, and like to look before I leap. I've also heard that IJ in particular is associated with being focused on self-preservation/security, which I tend to be. I don't like unnecessary risks.
    Not all that much. At least, I'm quite wary of the descriptions of introverted and extraverted forms of the processes themselves. The definitions of N is vague, so I doubt Ni and Ne can be that precise, for instance - and Ni+Ne doesn't quite seem to add up to everything N is meant to be, either.

    It would be convenient if it were valid, because as Ti dominant with N, I'd be much more confident saying I'm an INTP. But I'm not convinced that, for example, INTJ doesn't frequently use Ti-like processes, etc.
    I think I can understand why you'd doubt it. It's not really consistent with the rest of the model. The functions are mostly left over from Jung's original theory, and haven't really been intergrated well into the MBTI model. The result of this would be the endless debates about the nature of the cognitive functions we've had on here.

    If you want to find a way to make sense of functions, you should probably look at Jungian theory itself more directly, FWIW. But if you prefer to disregard them, you can do that too... whatever works for you.

  4. #24
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    Heya Two Point Two. Welcome to the forum

    Going on just my observations, the INXJs I know all had huge imaginations during childhood, whereas INTPs like Mum were extremely logical. What were you like back then?

    If they exist, letter breakdowns would be something else that varies between individuals perhaps? I suppose it could be a theory which doesn't hold experimentally, but personality is notoriously difficult to box and so observations might need to be quite large for a relaible statistical pattern? It would be interesting to investigate what functions different people extravert/intravert.

  5. #25
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    Heya Two Point Two. Welcome to the forum

    Going on my observations, the INXJs I know all had huge imaginations during childhood, whereas INTPs like Mum were extremely logical. Ni vs. Ti I guess. What were you like back then?

    Letter breakdowns would be something else that varies between individuals perhaps? I suppose it could be a theory which doesn't hold experimentally, but personality is notoriously difficult to box and so observations might need to be quite large for a reliable statistical pattern? It would be interesting to investigate what functions different people extravert/intravert.

  6. #26
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    So you've thought a lot about this stuff, cool! Anyway, nice to meet you, and enjoy the forum.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    Entropie - thank you.

    Jack Flak - I'm not sufficiently committed to the mainstream system to critically compare it with yours. Both look like they have merits and they also share flaws. Maybe one day I'll be able to offer something more useful.

    Athenian - now I'm less certain all over again. A lot of what you describe as J fits me too. I really must be about 50-50 or so for those traits. I certainly like to know what's going to happen before I commit to something, and security is important. But then, I have P traits, too. It's more the cognitive processes (standard model, if valid), and descriptions of INTJ and INTP themselves that tip me a little one way rather than the other. If cognitive processes weren't relevant, making it largely impossible, I'd be happy to just settle for INTx.

    Fife - thanks for the welcome.

    My guess is more imaginative, but I don't remember logic or lack thereof being an issue in my childhood.

    Cimarron - Thanks, nice to meet you too!

  8. #28
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post

    Athenian - now I'm less certain all over again. A lot of what you describe as J fits me too. I really must be about 50-50 or so for those traits. I certainly like to know what's going to happen before I commit to something, and security is important. But then, I have P traits, too. It's more the cognitive processes (standard model, if valid), and descriptions of INTJ and INTP themselves that tip me a little one way rather than the other. If cognitive processes weren't relevant, making it largely impossible, I'd be happy to just settle for INTx.
    Interesting. Well, everyone has traits of P and J, I think. The question is which approach you prefer. I think it's harder to discern for Introverts.

    A few questions... do you feel that you have an agenda, care about finishing what you start, and fulfilling obligations you get yourself into?

    I think that both Ps and Js can be lazy, but it happens in different ways. A J will just avoid taking on obligations or getting into situations where they have to do more things, while focusing on the things they have/want to do. A P will go out, get into stuff and then move on to something else and forget about what they had gotten themselves into before, and end up rushing at the last minute to get it done, if they remember it at all.*

    *Note that I'm probably a little biased towards Js.

    What descriptions and definitions of Ti, Ni, Ne, and Te are you using to decide which you prefer, out of curiousity?

    I know that cognitive processes make this more difficult, so it's important to be careful that we're on the same page with those. The most common cognitive process test gives unreliable results, in my experience. Anyone with mild intellecual inclinations would get a ridiculously high Ti score on that one... even me, and it's likely a tertiary function at best in my case. So if you're relying on that to indicate what functions you prefer... you might want to reconsider.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Two Point Two's Avatar
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    I did take a test; it's probably the one you're referring to. But I'm aware that people question its validity.

    I'm going more on an understanding of the processes, which I've cobbled together from a range of sources (anything findable with google). Basically, I think of Ti as being internal logical analysis, breaking down and analysing concepts, identifying inconsistencies within or between concepts, and so building internal models of reality. Ne I'm taking as generation of possibilities/making automatic connections between concepts; Ni I'm less sure of but I think it has to do with shifting the perspective from which you view a concept/model/problem. Te I think of as ordering the external world in a logical fashion. Given those understandings, while I use both forms of N, I don't trust intuitions until they've been tested with Ti, and Ti is what I do most/rely on. Te I use little and erratically. But again, I'm reluctant to put too much faith in the processes.

    As for J/P, the thing is that I prefer J-ing in some circumstances, and I prefer P-ing in others. A rundown:

    -I plan ahead for stressful events. Anything involving new places/scenarios/people must be planned ahead, and I'll also plan contingencies (i.e. if X does this, I can do that, whereas if X does some other thing, I'll have to do this...), and so I make sure I'll have access to whatever resources I'll need in the scenarios that could arise.
    - I fear spontaneity if it could lead to unfamiliar scenarios. I avoid any kind of unknown situation.

    But,
    -I love spontaneity if it isn't stressful. Friends who know me well, for example, can say 'hey, wanna do (whatever) today? Meet in an hour?' and that's fine. I do the same thing with them.
    -While I start early on projects with definite deadlines, I hate scheduling in any other way. But I'm rarely ever late with things, and I don't get how people can fail to be diligent in the ways in which I am, because I would find it so very stressful.
    -Js seems more interested in altering their environment; there's the drive to implement their ideas. My primary motive is understanding for its own sake - a very INTP thing.
    -I'm not rebellious for its own sake; I'm fine with leadership I see as competent. But if it isn't, I'll just leave - not try to change things/fix things, just opt out. If I can't opt out physically/actually, I opt out mentally - just detach. I know people who would take issue with their management and get worked up about things; I tend to just let it slide because, mentally, I'm not really there, so it's not my problem. For some reason, this is striking me as P more than J.
    -I put off decisions as long as I can, decisions don't come easily, and I'm always up for waiting for more information.

    For your questions:
    -No agenda as such; a vague/simple plan for a career.
    -I care about finishing what I start, but without external pressure to do so (i.e. someone expecting it) I often don't.
    -I do care about fulfilling obligations I get myself; I'm more likely to avoid obligations than fail to fulfill ones I acquire.

    Ah...long post.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Point Two View Post
    I did take a test; it's probably the one you're referring to. But I'm aware that people question its validity.

    I'm going more on an understanding of the processes, which I've cobbled together from a range of sources (anything findable with google). Basically, I think of Ti as being internal logical analysis, breaking down and analysing concepts, identifying inconsistencies within or between concepts, and so building internal models of reality. Ne I'm taking as generation of possibilities/making automatic connections between concepts; Ni I'm less sure of but I think it has to do with shifting the perspective from which you view a concept/model/problem. Te I think of as ordering the external world in a logical fashion. Given those understandings, while I use both forms of N, I don't trust intuitions until they've been tested with Ti, and Ti is what I do most/rely on. Te I use little and erratically. But again, I'm reluctant to put too much faith in the processes.

    As for J/P, the thing is that I prefer J-ing in some circumstances, and I prefer P-ing in others. A rundown:

    -I plan ahead for stressful events. Anything involving new places/scenarios/people must be planned ahead, and I'll also plan contingencies (i.e. if X does this, I can do that, whereas if X does some other thing, I'll have to do this...), and so I make sure I'll have access to whatever resources I'll need in the scenarios that could arise.
    - I fear spontaneity if it could lead to unfamiliar scenarios. I avoid any kind of unknown situation.
    You sound exactly like me so far. This seems J...
    But,
    -I love spontaneity if it isn't stressful. Friends who know me well, for example, can say 'hey, wanna do (whatever) today? Meet in an hour?' and that's fine. I do the same thing with them.
    -While I start early on projects with definite deadlines, I hate scheduling in any other way. But I'm rarely ever late with things, and I don't get how people can fail to be diligent in the ways in which I am, because I would find it so very stressful.
    -Js seems more interested in altering their environment; there's the drive to implement their ideas. My primary motive is understanding for its own sake - a very INTP thing.
    Huh. This sounds like me, also. I can't say that it's J, but I relate to it regardless.

    -I'm not rebellious for its own sake; I'm fine with leadership I see as competent. But if it isn't, I'll just leave - not try to change things/fix things, just opt out. If I can't opt out physically/actually, I opt out mentally - just detach. I know people who would take issue with their management and get worked up about things; I tend to just let it slide because, mentally, I'm not really there, so it's not my problem. For some reason, this is striking me as P more than J.
    Yeah... I'm very much like this too. This is honestly one of the things people notice most about me. But I always thought it was Ps (especially EPs) who liked to change things and get "engaged" in situations. My attitude is more "stay out of the way and don't get involved," most of the time. I mostly try to just keep to myself and take care of the aspects of a situation that concern me, like the tasks I've been assigned, the people I'm supposed to work with, etc.

    -I put off decisions as long as I can, decisions don't come easily, and I'm always up for waiting for more information.
    I do, too... unless I feel that I might lose something if I wait.
    For your questions:
    -No agenda as such; a vague/simple plan for a career.
    -I care about finishing what I start, but without external pressure to do so (i.e. someone expecting it) I often don't.
    -I do care about fulfilling obligations I get myself; I'm more likely to avoid obligations than fail to fulfill ones I acquire.


    Ah...long post.
    Okay, for me... those two criteria I bolded are actually why I consider myself a J. Mostly because Js extravert judgment (relying on an externally existing agenda), and introvert perception (avoiding obligations ahead of time rather than blowing them off later on when they become inconvienent). Again, all of them seem to apply to me as well.

    You seem to share an alarming number of my traits, regardless of what type you are. Are you sure you're not trying to make yourself sound like me on purpose?

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