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Clash of the Feeling Functions

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I have an obvious preference for extraverted Feeling. It’s so clear that I can easily trace a boatload of systemic problems I’ve experienced in my life to over-using this process. I confess it’s an area where I can readily get co-dependent. There are plenty of times when I have acted contrary to my own . . . → Read More: Clash of the Feeling Functions

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PeaceBaby

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Welp, this one started out promising but slipped into the twaddle-zone fairly quickly:

Here’s the thing: one hallmark of introverted Feeling is to withdraw, to end relationships. This process is the one most likely to treat another as persona non grata when a value has been violated. So look back over your life now and notice all the times you’ve walked away, turned your back on someone, ended a relationship. Those would be manifestations of introverted Feeling.

Wow. What this person is saying is that all moments of connection are Fe and moments of disconnection are Fi, despite previously defining Fi as "valuing".

The piece to notice is how readily doing that comes to you, and how easily or gracefully you do it. Chances are that people with introverted Feeling as a preferred process do it with greater style and grace than those of us who (like me) prefer extraverted Feeling.

So, if you can walk away from people regularly and with certitude and confidence, not caring much (you cold-hearted soul), you must use Fi. However, if it's hard for you knowing you've cut someone out of your life, as you're wracked with guilt and tears and your mascara flowing everywhere as you turn your back, you must use Fe. *sniff*

We need an eye-roll emoticon.

eta: tl;dr behaviour is not type-related. discussion on that follows in subsequent post.
 

five sounds

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Welp, this one started out promising but slipped into the twaddle-zone fairly quickly:



Wow. What this person is saying is that all moments of connection are Fe and moments of disconnection are Fi, despite previously defining Fi as "valuing".



So, if you can walk away from people regularly and with certitude and confidence, not caring much (you cold-hearted soul), you must use Fi. However, if it's hard for you knowing you've cut someone out of your life, as you're wracked with guilt and tears and your mascara flowing everywhere as you turn your back, you must use Fe. *sniff*

We need an eye-roll emoticon.

:rolleyes: :D
 

SpankyMcFly

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*gets front row seat for the ensuing Fi vs. Fe throwdown*

:popc1:
 

Tennessee Jed

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Welp, this one started out promising but slipped into the twaddle-zone fairly quickly:



Wow. What this person is saying is that all moments of connection are Fe and moments of disconnection are Fi, despite previously defining Fi as "valuing".



So, if you can walk away from people regularly and with certitude and confidence, not caring much (you cold-hearted soul), you must use Fi. However, if it's hard for you knowing you've cut someone out of your life, as you're wracked with guilt and tears and your mascara flowing everywhere as you turn your back, you must use Fe. *sniff*

We need an eye-roll emoticon.

In my case (as an Fi-Dom INFP), Vicky Jo has actually described me pretty well. I move on pretty easily, especially if someone has violated my values. I figure there are always new friends to be made. And frankly, I wouldn't want to be one of those who is still mourning an old flame or friendship years later. The author says that my kind of attitude can be an asset; and I agree with her.

I've known some INFPs who have gone into a deep funk over a relationship gone bad. So I can't say how much this is a real difference between Fe and Fi. But as I said, she hit my nail on the head pretty well. And I kind of like the description.

These things are in the eye of the beholder, I guess. :)
 

Jaguar

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So, there's an Fi-doorslam and an Fe-doorslam. Who comes up with this crap?
 

PeaceBaby

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In my case (as an Fi-Dom INFP), Vicky Jo has actually described me pretty well. I move on pretty easily, especially if someone has violated my values. I figure there are always new friends to be made. And frankly, I wouldn't want to be one of those who is still mourning an old flame or friendship years later. The author says that my kind of attitude can be an asset; and I agree with her.

I've known some INFPs who have gone into a deep funk over a relationship gone bad. So I can't say how much this is a real difference between Fe and Fi. But as I said, she hit my nail on the head pretty well. And I kind of like the description.

Oh it's Vicky Jo, that explains it some.

My point is that it doesn't explain it for me, therefore it's a difference that's not defined by looking at typological functions. If cognitive functions are about how we think, then you and I should be on the same page about this. But we are not (and granted, I didn't use a good argument to explain the logical underpinnings of my objection, just pointed out the discrepancy and left the blanks unfilled) and I am pretty sure you and I both are indeed Fi doms.

That said, some of how we think, that wiring, orients us to certain behaviours, making some more probable or not based on that wiring. But behaviour is so much better explained with enneagram. It's about emotions. Behaviour is not so much about the way we think, but how we react to the feels.

So yeah, I read this and think about how this makes people like me mistype myself as Fe. And I am not. So, it's just crappy misinformation, whichever way you slice it.
 

Tennessee Jed

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Oh it's Vicky Jo, that explains it some.

My point is that is doesn't explain it for me, therefore it's a difference that's not defined by looking at typological functions. If cognitive functions are about how we think, then you and I should be on the same page about this. But we are not (and granted, I didn't use a good argument to explain the logical underpinnings, just pointed out the discrepancy and left the blanks unfilled) and I am pretty sure you and I both are indeed Fi doms.

That said, some of how we think, that wiring, orients us to certain behaviours, making some more probable or not based on that wiring. But behaviour is so much better explained with enneagram. It's about emotions. Behaviour is not so much about the way we think, but how we react to the feels.

So yeah, I read this and think about how this makes people like me mistype myself as Fe. And I am not. So, it's just crappy misinformation, whichever way you slice it.

Vicky Jo is trying to pin down a differentiation between Fi and Fe. It's a slippery subject. I think there's a kernel of truth in what she's saying, and I give her credit for spotting the issue.

INFJs will do a big doorslam on a friend and then flagellate themselves endlessly over the subject; I could never understand that.

OTOH, I was pretty devastated by both my divorces. But it wasn't so much about losing the wives themselves; frankly I was just as happy to see those two women gone from my life. It was more about disillusionment and frustration that all my ideas of love and marriage had been proven wrong, and that all my great plans for our future as a couple had to be jettisoned and I had to rebuild afresh on my own. And so on, and so on. I didn't miss the women, but I missed being married, the solidity and predictability, and all that.

Hard to spell out the differentiation in mindsets like that quickly though: The precise mix of fears and frustrations and pain that each type feels in the event of a similar loss.
 

Hive

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Fi SUCKS! BOOOOOOOOOOO!
 

Jaguar

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Example of Fi value: Honesty at the expense of harmony.

"You dishonest hog-beast, GTFO!"

Example of Fe value: Harmony at the expense of honesty.

"Daaaaahlink, ooo look mahvelous."

Person leaves room, then . . .

"Damn, she looked like shit."
 

Qlip

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I didn't need to take much else seriously when she was talking about consciously accessing her introverted Feeling despite Fe being her preference. Yeah, that's exactly how that works. I also highly suggest dominants switch their feeling preferences to Aux mode, just for the purposes of this conversation.

Another gem about Fi:

It’s been called the “selfish” function, or the “bad” type of Feeling. It’s little wonder many people don’t want to claim it as a preference with that cloud hanging over it.

I've never heard of such a thing, it sounds like propaganda.
 

Cellmold

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Ah I never read the articles I just like reading the praise section:

Vicky Jo has cultivated a rich knowledge of personality type theory, particularly the value of drawing upon multiple frameworks. She has helped edit a number of my books, and I have found her insights and suggestions invaluable.

Dario Nardi, PhD

I’d taken personality tests before, and thought I “got it” — but now I know they only scratched the surface of the insights that are available to all of us through this work. Looking deeply into my type, with Vicky Jo’s support and guidance, was both validating and eye-opening. I highly recommend that anyone who is serious about investing in self-discovery partner with a professional, and Vicky Jo is at the top of the personality assessment field, combining a warm coaching style with years of dedicated research and expertise.
Jennifer Warwick, MA

I have been working with Vicky Jo for about a year and a half and can say with honesty that she is an amazingly insightful coach. Thanks to our coaching sessions, I now have a job that I enjoy and have made some great strides in my personal life, and I continue to work with Vicky Jo for the fresh perspective that she provides. A couple years ago, I was mired down and didn’t know how to interpret certain events and relationships in my life due to my typological limitations, but Vicky Jo has a way of cutting through all the noise and helping me find my truth. She also has integrity, which is important. She will not shy away from the uncomfortable and will tell you the truth as she sees it, which is what I value in her the most.
I’ve had to work hard and it’s been a wild ride, but if you are serious about turning your life around, working on a specific issue, or just gaining clarity around your type preference, then Vicky Jo is the coach for you!

~Laura G.

You are such a type rock star! Go Vicky Jo!!!!
-Chris Montoya

I’ve gone to trained counselors in the past because I felt something was missing and that the problem was me, but for all the time I spent talking with them I never received as much validation and helpful information as I did Friday evening … my sincere thanks to Vicky Jo.
D. Ashworth

Source: Praise « Type Insights

Testimonials people! Like a muthafuckin faith healer.
 

Bush

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I have heard Fi compared to the Tao – the more you try to describe it, the more it changes and becomes something else. Fi seems to defy defining!
Hah! Eat it, Ni.

Introverted Feeling is all about “valuing.” That might even be a synonym for this process. Extraverted Feeling is all about “connecting.” That might even be a synonym for this process.
Not bad. Not bad at all.
 

Tennessee Jed

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Not responding to anyone in particular here. I just want to make some general comments to add to what I said earlier:

There is definitely a difference between Fi and Fe. Fi is the "chillier," more contemplative function. Whereas Fe is the "warmer," more hands-on function.

But one runs into trouble when one tries to say much more than that (or even that much). If you try to put labels on the functions, people object to the labels. If you try to demonstrate how the functions work, people say, "My Fi/Fe doesn't work like that."

Same thing happens with Ni. When outsiders try to describe how Ni works, it seems like Ni-Doms almost universally nitpick the description.

Fi-Doms and Ni-Doms in particular never seem to like what's said about their functions. Carl Jung himself seemed to register that; Jung was pretty hands-off in his descriptions of those two functions in particular. But modern typology has shifted away from descriptions of personality types as a whole to analysis of the functions separately. So there's a growing library of modern analysis of *all* the individual Jungian cognitive functions. I especially like the new emphasis on analyses of functions in Inferior positions. I think those analyses provide a lot of collateral information on how the functions work.

Personally I also like it when the experts try to highlight some little real-world difference between Fe users and Fi users and show how that difference captures the Fe/Fi dichotomy. It's a scattershot approach. Some go wide of the mark; some hit closer to the bullseye. I've taken a stab at this sort of thing myself, most recently in this post: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...itional-personal-impressions.html#post2406207

One can take the hands-off approach and avoid controversy. But I appreciate the experts who take chances and get their hands dirty with more in-depth analyses. It seems that Vicky Jo Varner has moved beyond her little INFJ website/blog/message board to publication of some more serious typology analysis, such as: http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...6-spot-recognizing-8-cognitive-processes.html. I haven't checked out her on-line course myself, but my first impulse is to try to give her the benefit of the doubt. She keeps her explanations simple for public consumption, but it sounds like she's putting in a lot of time and work on this stuff. Certainly more time and work than me or other amateur commentators here like me.

Anyway, I'm just saying. Fi and Ni aren't "terra incognita" as much as they once were. The experts are pulling those two functions apart and seeing how they tick just like all the other Jungian cognitive functions. It makes for a lot of heartache and handwringing among some Fi- and Ni-users. But it's the wave of the future. :)

Oh well, enough said on that subject, at least by me. The article linked in the OP is a small article on a narrow aspect of the Fi/Fe dichotomy, not worth fighting to the death over. But as I said: I can see myself in Vicky Jo's description of Fi.
 

Z Buck McFate

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INFJs will do a big doorslam on a friend and then flagellate themselves endlessly over the subject; I could never understand that.

For years.

As I get older, that time spent has shifted from self-criticism (I could have said 'this', I could have done 'that') to simply grieving losses and accepting they had to happen. But even being more mindful, it still takes forever to really go away. I don't think (this issue in particular) is Fe so much as people-oriented Ni- because TPs, nor SFJs or even ENFJs, don't get hit as bad as we do with this.

***

More on the thread tangent (and fwiw), I really don't ever relate much to what Vicky Jo says. If I were to go by her descriptions, then I wouldn't think I was INFJ. And I'm pretty sure I'm INFJ.
 

Seymour

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[I use a short hand where Fi/Fe "does" things and "thinks" things, etc. I know that really it's whole people to do things, and functions are more like the lenses through which we view the world.]

I agree that the article really fails to capture the nature of Fi, and think that it falls pretty wide of the mark. Both Fi and Fe can be connecting. They can also both be boundary enforcing and disconnecting.

Connecting

They can both be connective because they are both about harmonizing with people. Fi focuses on the harmonizing with a specific person (which might be the self) moment to moment. It tries to optimize its internal landscape and the particular interaction with someone else.

At its best, Fi can cut through social propriety and relate to the individual as the individual is in the moment, appropriate or not.

Conversely, Fe is better at harmonizing with across multiple people and across multiple interactions. It builds up networks of connection in which people know how they are valued and what their obligations are. Fe builds networks of connections that communicate regularly and communicate "you are important to me."

Disconnecting

Both Fi and Fe can be disconnecting and boundary enforcing.

Fi tends to defend boundaries based on personal space and personal values. While Fi is generally very tolerant, it will defend the small territory in which it feels free to act according to its values. It doesn't take kindly to well-meaning others who intrude into that space with a demand to do things their way, or who trod upon an important value. Since Fi values intent, it tends to be forgiving of inadvertent offenses, but there are definitely acts which are effectively unforgivable (or make the other someone with whom vulnerability is ill-advised).

At times, Fi can be unsparing of itself as it tries to live up to dearly held value without making room for practical considerations (either limits of the self or realities of the outside world).

Fe tends to defend boundaries based on roles (and level of relationship), obligations -- "obligations" feels like too cold a term, really -- and consistency. If someone else is too inconsistent or doesn't live up to their obligations, the other may be demoted from "close friend" to "friend," for example. If the other is wildly inconsistent and flaky, they may be deemed someone whom it is not safe to invest in and be close to.

If the relationship is a close and valued one, then Fe (like Fi) is perfectly capable of communicating its displeasure and disappointment. Feeling is not all about warmth and positive valuation.

Fe can be unsparing of itself as it tries to live up to all of its "shoulds." It doesn't matter what one's inner emotional state is (that's often distraction or noise unless the state persists), or what other demands one has on oneself.


So, no, I don't think Fi = easy to walk away from relationships, or easy to doorslam. I've certainly agonized about backing away from certain relationships even when I thought it was the best thing for all involved. I don't think Fe = connecting and Fi = valuing. They are both perfectly capable or connecting/disconnecting and valuing positively or negatively.

I agree that Fe is better at consistently maintaining a variety of relationships over long periods of time. It tends to be much better at tracking the momentum and trajectory of relationships, and remembering to check in periodically. No argument there.

Still, I generally find Vicky Jo's biases to be pretty transparent even when she's trying to be neutral. I don't think her material worthless, but definitely some rebalancing is required in order to glean out any useful bits.

tl;dr

Both Fe and Fi have their warm/approving/connecty, cold/disapproving/disconnecty bits. Simplistic and biased to think otherwise.


Addendum: I'm certainly capable of flagellating myself for a long period of time because of some relationship failure. There are some people I don't reach out too mostly because of remaining guilt for things done and things left undone.
 

Tennessee Jed

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[...] I don't think (this issue in particular) is Fe so much as people-oriented Ni- because TPs, nor SFJs or even ENFJs, don't get hit as bad as we do with this.[...]

Thanks for the comments, Z.

I just wanted to comment in turn on the one fragment above. I have an ESFJ brother. I don't think he would flagellate himself for years upon the loss of a friend. But I think issues of personal loyalty will keep him tied to negative or harmful people in his inner circle long past the point where I myself would jettison such people. And I've seen some ENFJs make much of loyalty issues.

IOW, Fe-users always seem to demonstrate some issue of strong connection with others, sometimes to a harmful degree; the exact nature of the connection varies from type to type, of course.
 
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