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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post

    tl;dr

    Both Fe and Fi have their warmy/approving/connecty, cold/disapproving/disconnecty bits. Simplistic and biased to think otherwise.
    It seems strange to say that Fi and Fe are two very different functions (different enough to fuel months of arguments on this message board in the past), but then turn around and argue that the two functions don't actually manifest themselves in any meaningful or observable differences in how the different types live their lives. Would you say the same about Te vs Ti? Ne vs Ni? Se vs Si?

    But then I guess I'm being "simplistic and biased."

    Oh well, I'm done here.

  2. #22
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Another gem about Fi:

    I've never heard of such a thing, it sounds like propaganda.
    It is true, of underdeveloped, Inferior Fi. It's strange how people insist on applying this characteristic to dom/aux usage. I could just as easily say that Fe is characterised by martyrdom, paranoia, whining about others owing you something, and generally projecting negative shit on everyone - but then that would actually be terrible, Inferior usage of Fe.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    There is definitely a difference between Fi and Fe. Fi is the "chillier," more contemplative function. Whereas Fe is the "warmer," more hands-on function.
    I'm OK with this label. I would agree that it's true as long as it clear that this is merely objectively speaking - ie. what it looks like from the outside. I think this is an useful piece of information to help in identifying these functions in others.

    Too many of the descriptions of Fi are superficial and external, which is fine if it's just someone outside perspective. It's a different thing altogether when someone can't differentiate between an external experience of things and the underlying, unseen reality - what it looks like is not the same as what it is. Fi outwardly appears to be colder than Fe - but this is not the same as it being colder than Fe, which is the kind of stupid conclusion some people draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    It seems strange to say that Fi and Fe are two very different functions (different enough to fuel months of arguments on this message board in the past), but then turn around and argue that the two functions don't actually manifest themselves in any meaningful or observable differences in how the different types live their lives. Would you say the same about Te vs Ti? Ne vs Ni? Se vs Si?

    But then I guess I'm being "simplistic and biased."

    Oh well, I'm done here.
    Maybe if you read the rest of what Seymour wrote you would see how he compared and contrasted the two.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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  3. #23
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross;2412310[B
    ]It is true, of underdeveloped, Inferior Fi.[/B] It's strange how people insist on applying this characteristic to dom/aux usage. I could just as easily say that Fe is characterised by martyrdom, paranoia, whining about others owing you something, and generally projecting negative shit on everyone - but then that would actually be terrible, Inferior usage of Fe.


    I'm OK with this label. I would agree that it's true as long as it clear that this is merely objectively speaking - ie. what it looks like from the outside. I think this is an useful piece of information to help in identifying these functions in others.

    Too many of the descriptions of Fi are superficial and external, which is fine if it's just someone outside perspective. It's a different thing altogether when someone can't differentiate between an external experience of things and the underlying, unseen reality - what it looks like is not the same as what it is. Fi outwardly appears to be colder than Fe - but this is not the same as it being colder than Fe, which is the kind of stupid conclusion some people draw.
    Mostly I was taken a-back at the idea that Fi is so maligned that it's generally noted that people don't want to claim it. I can definitely see how Fi can look cold and selfish and maybe arrogant, mostly because it can have a disharmonious effect in situations where Fi deems harmony inequitable.

  4. #24
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Mostly I was taken a-back at the idea that Fi is so maligned that it's generally noted that people don't want to claim it.
    Yeah, I don't know where that idea is coming from.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Maybe if you read the rest of what Seymour wrote you would see how he compared and contrasted the two.
    Bah. Just the usual stonewalling. I've seen 75-page threads in the past where you, Peacebaby, OrangeAppled, and Seymour insisted that no one was allowed to define Fi but you guys. And then you yourselves never defined it in any meaningful way. You guys Ne the subject to death and never let it come to closure. It's just the usual Fi control-freakism and stonewalling. It's all push-back and no substance.

    It's why some discussions will never go anywhere. Material on Fi is discussed in the typology community at large, in books and articles, but it can't be discussed here because of loud pushback from a small coterie of control freaks.

  6. #26
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    I will interject that to a Fi-er Fe feels cold. Compared to Fi there's an impersonal edge to it, which sounds amusingly contradictory, generally accepted interpersonal warmth feeling impersonal. I feel like this is the usual root of the Fe-Fi Feud on the Fi side.

  7. #27
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Bah. Just the usual stonewalling. I've seen 75-page threads in the past where you, Peacebaby, OrangeAppled, and Seymour insisted that no one was allowed to define Fi but you guys. And then you yourselves never defined it in any meaningful way. It's just the usual Fi control-freakism and stonewalling. It's all push-back and no substance.

    It's why some discussions will never go anywhere. Material on Fi is discussed in the typology community at large, in books and articles, but it can't be discussed here because of loud pushback from a small coterie of control freaks. :girlfight
    Ugh, I know. All that reasoning and rational argument - who needs it? It's better just to make up a bunch of BS, blindly insist it's true, and ignore anyone that disagrees.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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  8. #28
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post

    I just wanted to comment in turn on the one fragment above. I have an ESFJ brother. I don't think he would flagellate himself for years upon the loss of a friend. But I think issues of personal loyalty will keep him tied to negative or harmful people in his inner circle long past the point where I myself would jettison such people. And I've seen some ENFJs make much of loyalty issues.

    IOW, Fe-users always seem to demonstrate some issue of strong connection with others, sometimes to a harmful degree; the exact nature of the connection varies from type to type, of course.
    I absolutely agree with the loyalty point. This isn't to say Pe dom/aux isn't loyal, but FJs interact less with the immediate moment and more with our internal concept of a person (built from accumulated experience of them). We wont recognize immediate harmful behavior as harmful behavior until enough of it builds up to put a dent in the internal concept.


    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Both Fe and Fi have their warm/approving/connecty, cold/disapproving/disconnecty bits. Simplistic and biased to think otherwise.
    My own experience inclines me to agree. I believe Ne can be as 'warm' as Fe, and is just as capable of readily 'connecting' as Fe is. It's far more about how enthusiastic someone is to engage with others (because that bleeds through in 'warmness') than Fe vs. Ne.

    I've thought before that Vicky Jo has a strong tendency to conflate so instinct variant dominance with Fe and least so instinct variance with Fi. (There's a great deal about her typical descriptions that I don't resonate with- but that, in particular, usually stands out to me.)


    Addendum: I'm certainly capable of flagellating myself for a long period of time because of some relationship failure. There are some people I don't reach out too mostly because of remaining guilt for things done and things left undone.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Bah. Just the usual stonewalling. I've seen 75-page threads in the past where you, Peacebaby, OrangeAppled, and Seymour insisted that no one was allowed to define Fi but you guys. And then you yourselves never defined it in any meaningful way. You guys Ne the subject to death and never let it come to closure. It's just the usual Fi control-freakism and stonewalling. It's all push-back and no substance.

    It's why some discussions will never go anywhere. Material on Fi is discussed in the typology community at large, in books and articles, but it can't be discussed here because of loud pushback from a small coterie of control freaks.
    oh pot, why dost thou callest the kettle black? gaze into the mirror; it is thine own self in the darkness.


    Let's examine you. Let's look at your emotions and motivations here. What is so provocative or threatening to you that you are unable to face your own emotions on the topic? We evoke anger, frustration in you ... you know that's all about you, right? Those emotions aren't about us? Why do you feel impotent here, like you have no voice? There is something inside of you, deeply hurt and wounded, that has been unheard and untended for a long time.

    Because that's what I feel interfacing with you, and I sense almost a kind of defensive disdain for the "indulgence" we permit ourselves here. You speaking out is an attempt to quiet your own inner self by silencing us. You are trying to govern us in the manner you govern yourself. Set it free man! Get whinier and pissier if you need to! And find the tears in there, for having felt unseen for so long.

    So, fellow Fi dom, why not travel along and learn with the rest of us? There is no club or coterie - we are just a bunch of random travelers on a journey. You're welcome to join, as all are welcome.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  10. #30
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    Defined in a meaningful way, also, if you have a particular function in your stack you will recognized it within yourself without any doubts, especially if the author does a good job defining the function. I think its worth saying that if have doubts about whether or not you use the function more than likely you have those doubts because the function is unfamiliar to you. Bells should go off.

    Introverted Feeling - Lenore Thomson

    Quasi-defining statements:

    p. 41: "When we use Feeling in an Introverted way, it operates as a kind of inner flame--a sense of personal values that may be difficult to explain or express directly but whose character informs our choices and inclinations."

    p. 366: "Introverted Feeling ... encourages a personal relationship to an evolving pattern, a will to gauge the situation by an experiential ideal. For example, if we use Introverted Feeling to make a good spaghetti sauce, we won't follow recipes or measure ingredients. We'll sample the sauce as we're making it, gauging its taste, smell, and texture by their ideal outcome and adjusting for circumstantial variables so the emerging pattern stays on track."

    p. 367: "To invoke Introverted Feeling, we have to know the difference between a good outcome and a bad one--know with our senses, in our bones [on the basis of living, breathing, first-hand experience]."

    p. 370: "Introverted Feeling relies on the inward, right-brain criteria of experience and empathy to mark off decisions that go beyond our roles in society to affect us as human beings. Law and custom, after all, are the lowest common denominator of a defined community. We associate character and humane behavior with the moral imperatives shaped by inner values."

    p. 371: "An inner point of reference, one trained by personal experience. [Bypassing matters of social standing] to focus on the quintessentially human."

    Proposed definition #1

    Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude that everything that is manifest (apparent, observable, described) is the expression of a soul or life force, in terms of which everything ultimately makes sense. Everything that happens is the result of a soul expressing its unique nature.

    From this attitude, each living thing is completely unique, and has unique needs. Every living thing needs to express itself and grow in its unique way. None of this can be put into categories or measurements, at least not without blotting out that utter uniqueness of each living thing. Because we are all living things, even though each of us is unique we can still connect to the life force as it exists in others. From an Fi standpoint, the way to respond to things is in a way that is faithful to that underlying life force.

    Proposed definition #2

    Introverted Feeling (Fi) is the attitude of judging things good or bad based on how they harmonize or clash with a living being's inner essence. That inner essence or soul, and how things in the environment get along with it or conflict with it, is knowable only first-hand--ultimately, only by that soul. It is known by attending to one's own emotions in response to things. What you like is good--for you, not necessarily good for others. What you don't like is bad--for you, not necessarily bad for others. Anything outside your own soul is irrelevant to evaluating anything or choosing your course in life.

    As a language of Ego Orientation

    As a Dominant Function, Fi leads IFPs to live a life based on empathy and harmony between self and others--and/or to see life as a never-ending conflict between souls that are intrinsically different and opposed. ISFPs typically seek out a space in which they can be completely and spontaneously themselves, following their artistic impulses without regard to social expectation or definition of any sort. Some do their best to live life as a soap opera: creating and living out intense drama wherever they go. INFPs typically seek to understand the world in terms of drama, emotion, and people seeking their own unique callings (perhaps Garrison Keillor is a good example of that). Some, like John Gray, attempt to help others understand each other through empathy with each other's differences, and thereby find peace and synergy.

    Developed Fi naturally leads people to favor mercy or forgiveness for people who have done heinous acts--anything from theft to murder to genocide--acts that, under the ordinary laws that make a society manageable (see Extraverted Thinking), would usually merit their imprisonment or execution. From a developed Fi perspective, the criminal is still a living soul, still unique and precious despite whatever he may have done. If we walked in his moccasins for a while, maybe we could see it his way. Without condoning his crimes, maybe we could see how we ourselves could have done the same things under similar circumstances. This use of empathy as one's ultimate anchor of orientation leads to a resolute non-judgementalness. First empathize--find something in your own heart that lets you see how someone could feel and act the way he did--and then you will probably find that you no longer feel hatred or a desire for retribution.

    As a Secondary Function, Fi typically leads EFPs to tune into the unmet needs and callings of others--as an avenue to making a sale, as a way to intuit what would entertain people, as a channel to political gain by demonstrating that you understand people's pain (e.g. Bill Clinton), as a way to chart a course through life based on a calling felt to be unique to them. Sometimes it leads them to sense a higher calling to answer to, a sense that their actions have cosmic meaning by virtue of how they aid or hinder life.

    As a Tertiary Function, Fi typically leads ITJs to retreat into solitary actions that have no constructive worldly effect but are aimed at providing a justification for calling themselves good people. Another example is obsession with the purity of one's soul. For example, being a vegetarian while working at Taco Bell--not out of any great love for animals (the person might hardly know anything about what cows are like), but to be able to say, "Well, at least I never ate any animals." Or engaging in pointless acts of honor, like maintaining super-self-control or "doing one's duty" or going down with the ship. Nothing is gained by going down with the ship; it's a hyper-introverted act aimed at providing a rationalization for one's goodness without regard to real-world consequences. Nearly all of these tertiary-Fi acts involve refraining from action viewed as unethical rather than taking positive action that would accomplish something. They're a retreat from the world--or rather, a rationalization for disregarding worldly matters.

    As an Inferior Function, Fi typically leads ETJs to acts of self-destructive hedonism, creation of opera-like drama in their lives and the lives of those around them, obsession with "integrity" (like going down with the ship), instant and irresponsible abandonment of anything they don't like (the opposite of going down with the ship), and bizarre solitary acts of atonement for the harms they've done to others. Sometimes inferior-Fi leads ETJs to preach and even practice a sort of hyper-selfishness, e.g. Ayn Rand and the Landmark Forum. "I'm doing fine, so why should I give a damn about you?" (Very different from highly developed Fi, which leads you to see all people as connected and the highest joy of life as the experience of that connection.)

    Tertiary and inferior Fi also sometimes lead TJs to view large numbers of people as "troglodytes": soulless or stupid creatures whose rotten situations in life derive only from their own intrinsic rottenness-of-soul. To take a comic example, Lex Luthor's lamentation in Superman, "Why is the world's greatest criminal genius surrounded by nincompoops?"

    Perhaps the most typical manifestation of tertiary and inferior Fi is an attitude of psychologizing other people: a sort of pseudo-empathy in which one explains other people's behavior in terms of pitiful needs and psychological flaws that anyone would be ashamed to have. "Notice the defensiveness. He clings desperately to his ideas. Such weakness." (Nearly all psychological theories offer plenty of ammo for psychologizing, including Lenore Thomson's ideas.) Where developed Fi leads you to find something in your own soul in terms of which to truly understand someone else and see things their way, tertiary and inferior Fi typically lead you to find something in your own soul that you despise, in terms of which you can "explain" them and justify putting them down.

    Naturally, you can see plenty of dominant-style Fi in ETJs, secondary-style Fi in IFPs, and so on--even inferior-style Fi in IFPs.

    Introverted feeling is judgement with an emotional slant that causes the individual to view the object on a Subjective level. It is primarily a silent inaccessible function that is difficult to conceptualize. Therefore, unlike its extraverted counterpart, Extraverted Feeling, it is entirely individualistic, with a leaning toward the mystical. Introverted feeling is generally disconnected with typical external stimuli. Introverted feeling is only concerned with the external to the extent that the object has some relevance to a deep, internal value. Its primary objective is to harmonize ideologies, concepts, relationships etc. with the internal guiding force.

    Whatever the individual values the most will dominate the motivations, goals and chief objectives of the individual. For example, if the primary value is God, then all other values will find themselves inexorably subjugated to this primary one. Often, unbalanced introverted feeling will create in the individual dramatic mood swings and decisions based on illogical rationales. However, at its best, introverted feeling provides a navigational quality that creates in the personality tenacity, idealism, honor, relationship wisdom and a unfaltering value system that is seldom compromised.

    Introverted feeling is a counterpart to Extroverted thinking, as are all inferior elements to the dominant. Everyone attempts to accomplish the inferior through the dominant. By following first principles and proverbial logic (Te) i.e. literal proverbs, they accomplish being "good"(Fi). Though the elements look different they simply reverse the horse and carriage. An Fi will look at a business tycoon and blame them for the state of the poor. A Te realizes that simply feeling bad for the poor won't accomplish anything, because you can't take emotions to the bank (a common Te proverb) you need to actually DO something. Even if you don't FEEL for them, building a huge corporation and then donating your equity to charity is worth more than a single person volunteering their entire life. For this reason, even though still hated by a generally large amount of people, Bill Gates (textbook ENTJ according to typology forums) is more effective in donating ~$30 billion to build business around the globe for the poor and promoting philanthro-capitalism than an army of Mother Teresa's.
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