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  1. #81
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think this is the right way to look at it. As much as it might not seem l like it, of all people, us Ni-doms realize just how much we don't know. We seek depth of understanding and insight however. It's just how we're built. Yes, we have a great deal of confidence in our perceptions, but they are just that - perceptions. Those perceptions can be changed with new evidence.
    Ah, but in the realm of people it is the only way it can be looked at. See, Te vs Ti gets the benefit of referencing the "real world" to a much higher degree. Tell me, where exactly does one get invisible Fi evidence from to prove Fe assertions incorrect? How does one prove an Fe deception? Very difficult, and there's a high degree of obfuscation that can make anything look at least a bit innocent.

    Can you imagine living life like this - to have this constant quest for evolving your insights about things and realize that there is no possible way you can ever come close to knowing enough? That's what it is like.


    Well, I believe that INFPs tend to be pretty much on the idealistic side. When you combine that with dominant Fi, it can lead to what can be perceived by others as an ivory tower mentality. Maybe that is where the Fi elitist reference comes from? Again, there is the analogy I can provide that INTJs can feel the same way about INTPs. The difference is that it is about thinking and intellectual perspective rather than values. Then again, ESTJs probably think that about INTJs so...
    I know where the reference comes from. It comes from me first, actually. I was the first person to say that out loud in reference to the current dynamic. I know my words can be heard as holier-than-thou, but that's my frame of reference interpreted through other lenses and not how I feel inside about these things. Why does the expression of that truth not matter here? Why can someone insult another person in this way and not be infracted for that? It's so sly and so very well done.

    Sometimes, I think this forum is like a laboratory. People get upset about things and then actually talk about why they are upset because of the type of forum it is. We know what type they are so we get a chance to see how the interaction works. It's unfortunate that some INFJs feel driven away by certain types of interaction. I also feel badly that you seem upset.
    No, people do not talk about them. Not openly and not freely and not to any type of resolution. Ironically, I am the e9 here! I do appreciate you expressing something about my feelings, but I don't feel like you see what's going on either so that is a bit frustrating to me. But thanks for that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #82
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @Forever_Jung I love this.
    I think Miss INFJ just needs to know why in order to motivate herself to do the task. I bet a lot of tension would be eliminated if the boss just relaxed a little and showed her some of the big picture. Also, the INFJ would probably be more motivated and feel better about her work.
    I DO ask why, all of the time. If something seems exceptionally pointless, I really need to see the validity of it before I can buy into it. According to the video on INTJ communication style, this is a characteristic that we share in common. We ask "why". I suppose then, that it may be Ni fueled. Also, I think that for the INFJ, at least for me, there is an insatiable need to constantly learn and understand. We must know why, so we ask and ask and ask. I not only ask why, I ask how, and when and where and what. I have exasperated more than one boss, but not intentionally.

    @Hard and @PeaceBaby I think you are onto something, but I would like to take it a step further. I don't think it is ONLY that Fi and Fe are different. I think that it is the entire alignment of functions that is different and responsible for gap. The reason I say that is that Fe is an auxiliary function, not a dominant one in INFJs. The very placement of it means that its role in an INFJ is not as prominent as the role of Fi in an INFP. Then our secondary functions are also flipped in order so that it is fair to say that Ne in an INFP is not as dominant as Ni in an INFJ. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that perhaps isn't so much as Fi vs. Fe as it is Ni vs. Fi and Ne vs. Fe. Then comes the Ti vs. Te and Se vs. Si. Do you see what I'm driving at? Our entire cognitive matrix is a mismatch! We "almost" communicate. We feel a kinship but are basically from different cognitive worlds. I keep thinking of the old cliché "two ships passing in the night." It's as @OrangeAppled said, there is something lost in the translation. I do think that Ne and Ni really balance each other out when they share the same place in the functional order. That is probably why I communicate more easily with ENFPs and ENTPs but sometimes struggle to understand INFPs and INTPs, even though I may really like them as people.

    I think part of the breakdown on forums comes when people [of all and any functions] begin to take things personally and somehow feel "targeted" as opposed to objectively looking at the function and not the individual person (I'm not referring to anyone one person here but speaking in generalities.) We can't take another's perception as an attack on our type and even if it is, should we allow that to stop us from seeking to understand?

    In other words, if a member talks about a tendency that she's noticed in INFJs, she isn't personally attaching me. She's stating what she's observed. She's letting me see through her eyes. I can either be offended because I don't like what she sees or I can say, "Okay, so that's what you see? Go on. Maybe I can figure out why you see that." If I become irritated by her views I have ceased to be objective and somehow taken it to mean that she is attacking the essence of who I am, which is not usually the case. However, a retaliatory comment only causes verbal hostility and dams up the flow of communication. If we want to really learn about each other then we must remain objective about ourselves. For me that means stepping back and attempting to listen, trying to understand, gathering all the Intel I can gather and then comparing it, analyzing it and finally making some sort of sense of it in a way that helps people in some tangible way. For other types, it may mean something different.

    Cool, I just now read this post from @highlanderwhich seems to be saying sort of the same thing.
    Sometimes, I think this forum is like a laboratory. People get upset about things and then actually talk about why they are upset because of the type of forum it is. We know what type they are so we get a chance to see how the interaction works.
    I know some people don't really like conflict but we can learn from it. It's useful at times. It can be a good thing.
    Yes, it can and it doesn't have to be "personal." If we can discuss ideas and not take offense to opposing viewpoints, there may be few limits to what we can learn.

    @fidelia that list is excellent.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #83
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I do appreciate you expressing something about my feelings, but I don't feel like you see what's going on either so that is a bit frustrating to me. But thanks for that.
    I admit that I do not understand a lot of it. It's a little bit like this NF Jiu-Jitsu thing. I'm just not nuanced enough to follow the machinations.

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  4. #84
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @Forever_Jung
    @Hard and @PeaceBaby I think you are onto something, but I would like to take it a step further. I don't think it is ONLY that Fi and Fe are different. I think that it is the entire alignment of functions that is different and responsible for gap. The reason I say that is that Fe is an auxiliary function, not a dominant one in INFJs. The very placement of it means that its role in an INFJ is not as prominent as the role of Fi in an INFP. Then our secondary functions are also flipped in order so that it is fair to say that Ne in an INFP is not as dominant as Ni in an INFJ. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that perhaps isn't so much as Fi vs. Fe as it is Ni vs. Fi and Ne vs. Fe. Then comes the Ti vs. Te and Se vs. Si. Do you see what I'm driving at? Our entire cognitive matrix is a mismatch! We "almost" communicate. We feel a kinship but are basically from different cognitive worlds. I keep thinking of the old cliché "two ships passing in the night." It's as @OrangeAppled said, there is something lost in the translation. I do think that Ne and Ni really balance each other out when they share the same place in the functional order. That is probably why I communicate more easily with ENFPs and ENTPs but sometimes struggle to understand INFPs and INTPs, even though I may really like them as people.
    Ok, so INFP is Fi>Ne>Si>Te and INFJ is Ni>Fe>Ti>Se - no shared functions whatsoever. Makes you wonder what validity there is to Keirsey's idealist temperament. INFJs seem more like ISFJs to me than INFPs. INFPs and ENFPs seem to have some things in common though.

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  5. #85
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @Hard and @PeaceBaby I think you are onto something, but I would like to take it a step further. I don't think it is ONLY that Fi and Fe are different. I think that it is the entire alignment of functions that is different and responsible for gap.
    Here are links to some brainstorming I did a while back on that (there's more but I can't think where it is atm):

    Part 1: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2025312

    Part 2: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2025411

    Part 3: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2025443

    From your thread, actually. I never did finish Part 4, it's half done somewhere on this compy. Maybe I should revisit it, and all of these.

    Edited: I have my posts set to 100 per page. These links won't work if you have yours different. Here they are spoilered instead





    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #86
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Ok, so INFP is Fi>Ne>Si>Te and INFJ is Ni>Fe>Ti>Se - no shared functions whatsoever. Makes you wonder what validity there is to Keirsey's idealist temperament. INFJs seem more like ISFJs to me than INFPs. INFPs and ENFPs seem to have some things in common though.
    There are so many possible factors to make people (dis)similar. I've gone through this time and again, and I think that the stereotypes of INFJs lean towards ISFJ, but they would think most like an INTJ. Realize that an ISFJ's dominant function is the single most baffling thing to an INFJ and vice versa. Both are introverted and tend to have a strong need to connect, so that's similar.

    Strangely enough i've lately noticed difficulty in telling INFJ and ENFPs apart (even though I know the stereotypes for the two are extremely different). I'm actually dating a guy right now who I think is an INFJ E9 like me, but it's not impossible that he is an ENFP. Even in discussions online I've found myself thinking a lot like ENFPs.

    I do think that INFJs and INFP have some notable differences, but my impression is that the actual reality of it is quite intertwined and tangled and not nearly as clear and categorical as these discussion assume. Even the question of people assuming inner motivations can happen from either type. I've also had the opportunity to grow up with an INFP and it is really interesting how much we share in common - in part because we have the same culture and ideals, but it also goes deeper than that.

    This isn't a formal MBTI idea as far as I know, but based on experience and observation, it seems like people who have extremely strong dominant functions can demonstrate both the introverted and extroverted forms of it. What do you think?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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  7. #87
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Ok, so INFP is Fi>Ne>Si>Te and INFJ is Ni>Fe>Ti>Se - no shared functions whatsoever. Makes you wonder what validity there is to Keirsey's idealist temperament. INFJs seem more like ISFJs to me than INFPs. INFPs and ENFPs seem to have some things in common though.
    Well, just to take the contrarian position... I think INFs have a lot in common in many ways (they are about depth, the abstract, and the importance of values and harmonizing). I think it's more of a difference of means than of ends. We all tend to want to maximize positive relations, harmonize with the self and others, and defend positions with are easily discounted by the larger culture. We both tend to care too much, regardless of context.

    From a preferences point of view, I think the teasing apart FP vs FJ (vs the associated EF and IF, which tend to be dragged in when "Fe" is translated as EFJ, and "Fi" is translated as "IFP") can help illuminate some things that a "functions" point of view tends to obscure.

    For example, I don't think it's fair to call INFJs' Feeling "shallow", because I think their introversion gives a depth and intensiveness that calling their feeling function "extraverted" tends to belie. I think it's helpful to think of FPs as optimizing Feeling in the present and for the specifics, and FJs as optimizing Feeing across time and cross-contextually. FJs have a much better sense of both "momentum" (that is, change over time) and of consistency across interpersonal contexts. In a sense, it is "shallower" as far as being less invested in the current moment and context, but in another sense it goes deeper as far as awareness of long term and cross-contextual trends. An IFJ's focus tends to be narrower and deeper than an EFJ's (just as an IFP's tends to be narrower and deeper than an EFP's).

    So INFJs are, it seems, less aware of their feelings in the moment, and less invested into moment to moment (and even individual to individual) variations being significant. That means they have a higher bar in certain respects... another must show a consistent pattern to be worth investing in... their own emotions have to show repetition and patterning to be worth analyzing and granting worth to. However, they have unique strengths at being aware of subtle cross-individual and cross-time patterns that many FPs tend to be blind to.

    The weakness of FPs is that we tend to be a bit future blind (I'd say more so those with a strong perceiving preference, like me), and tend to assume that THIS time (with all its unique features) will be different. We can tend to disregard the wisdom of others because others are not (and it's true!) aware of all the specifics that make THIS time and this person different. That can sometimes lead us down the primrose path into a bad situation. Sometimes we seem to have to learn the hard way, even when others warn us of avoidable dangers. FPs mostly learn from personal experience, or from the experience of those they are closest to: the warnings and advice of others are too-often disregarded.

    So, I'd disagree that IFPs have little in common. Unfortunately where we differ is where the rubber tends to meet the road. This difference seems to be exacerbated online, even if I do perceive such differences in person as well. Usually in person, though, I can feel the good intent of my INFJ friend or coworker, and they are (mostly) aware of mine and the efficacy as my approach. More typically in person we are able to respect one another's gifts, even if how we go about things differs a great deal. It seems regrettable that online differences are exacerbated, and that INFP/INFJ threads (however well intentioned) tend to go down in flames, with each side feeling unfairly judged.

  8. #88
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @PeaceBaby

    In response to that last question that you asked Hard: What you do is you show value in a way that you know will help the other person. You understand the MBTI, so you should know what INFJs want and need. You know from reading posts by INFJs in this thread and others, exactly what INFJs want and don't want in these situations. So what you can do is use that knowledge, and the sensitivity and caring that comes with being Fi-dom, to help them in a way that focuses on THEM. When Fi-users try to help people in a way that would help another Fi-dom, only for it to backfire, the reaction can often be "How DARE you be so ungrateful when I just bared my soul to you" -- which makes the focus about YOU, when it was never supposed to be about you. It's the opposite of active listening, almost.

    I can fall victim to this, too. But at the same time, I am all too familiar with the reaction that behavior consistently gets in Fe-users. So you have two options: Blame, or adapt. I've chosen to adapt.
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  9. #89
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Here are links to some brainstorming I did a while back on that (there's more but I can't think where it is atm):

    Part 1: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2025312

    Part 2: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2025411

    Part 3: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post2025443

    From your thread, actually. I never did finish Part 4, it's half done somewhere on this compy. Maybe I should revisit it, and all of these.

    Thank you, I'll follow these links and read up on what you said. I've learned a lot since that thread. I admit that the enormous amount of responses began to overwhelm me after awhile. Maybe it's time I did revisit it.

    @highlander ISFJs do share a couple of functions with INFJs and we work well together, and they share some common values. However, due to Si being their dominant and Ni being ours, there is the occasional knowing that I've been heard but not comprehended and I'm sure they feel that some deeply valued Si details have been dismissed as irrelevant by me, especially if I'm in a particularly contrary state of mind. For the most part, though, we do okay. My mom was ISFJ and I always felt that even though she didn't understand my mind, she knew my heart and that was always enough.

    I agree with fia in that we most likely think more like INTJs. At least communication with them feels most natural.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #90
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Thank you, I'll follow these links and read up on what you said. I've learned a lot since that thread. I admit that the enormous amount of responses began to overwhelm me after awhile. Maybe it's time I did revisit it.

    @highlander ISFJs do share a couple of functions with INFJs and we work well together, and they share some common values. However, due to Si being their dominant and Ni being ours, there is the occasional knowing that I've been heard but not comprehended and I'm sure they feel that some deeply valued Si details have been dismissed as irrelevant by me, especially if I'm in a particularly contrary state of mind. For the most part, though, we do okay. My mom was ISFJ and I always felt that even though she didn't understand my mind, she knew my heart and that was always enough.
    That's a good way of explaining it. I think the aux Fe + tert Ti causes some similarities in the way they interact with others. This being fueled by a powerful internal perception process (Si vs Ni), makes them seem rather alike in many ways on the outside. Of course what is going on inside is vastly different because of Ni and Si. In summary, I think INFJs and ISFJs can look similar on the outside in many ways even if they are very different internally.

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