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  1. #61
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Taking it a bit broader - question to the INFJs - what is it exactly that results in the INFJ extending that trust and opening up? I don't know that it has anything to do with internal consistency but it seems like it is certainly something. Time? Behaviors over time? Is there some kind of inflection point that occurs? What builds up that trust over time and what tears it down?
    I'm not sure if it's so much a choice for me, but an instinctual feeling that develops over time as I continue getting to know someone. Some factors probably would be:

    - Ability to make me feel that we are on the same team, even if we have differing views. I think that partly is done by starting from points of commonality before venturing to points of difference.
    - Not playing devil's advocate when I'm feeling upset about something that seems unfair to me or that involves other people until after I have calmed down. Ask questions instead about what is going on and find out what the underlying issue seems to be.
    - Loyalty and general kindness - Especially in how people act in public towards others or what they say about people in front of a group/listen to what others say about those individuals without commenting. If they treat other people badly, I'm not likely to trust them with me. If I feel publicly embarrassed by information they've shared that was private, by teasing me in front of people whose regard matters to me, by devaluing what matters to me, or by allowing other people to talk about me negatively when I am not present without saying anything, I sure am not going to open up more to them.
    - How much common ground we have to begin with. Is communication a constant uphill climb? Do we have differing views on a lot of subjects, especially fundamental ones to the way we see and interpret the world? If so, it's not a matter of shutting people out, but just not getting a lot closer to them.
    - Consistent behaviour. I like knowing what I might expect from someone and how then to interact with them in a way that is mutually satisfying. If I am getting mixed messages, don't receive any feedback on my own interaction, receive information that doesn't match up with the image they are trying to portray to me, if they act very differently around different people, or if they seem really unpredictable, I am going to feel uneasy a lot of the time and it also takes up huge amounts of my mental and emotional bandwidth.
    - I open up much more quickly to people who seem to make efforts to understand my internal world without trying to direct it first. One of the greatest compliments I could have is someone who asks me why I work the way I do, or who wants to know more about me and what makes me tick.
    - Good listeners/awareness of reciprocation - I tend to attract a lot of people who want to feel cared for, but who don't have the resources/interest to reciprocate. Someone who is actually interested in knowing me will see more of the inner layers sooner.
    - History - I am more open to anyone who is familiar. However, someone who has proven in the past to be caring, loyal, thoughtful, insightful, an expert in a certain area that I am seeking help in, or stepped in when they were really needed, etc will be someone I will trust more.
    - Awareness of what is most important to me and treats those areas with care and respect.
    - Appreciation. Someone who verbalizes that they value me and what they specifically value about me - helps me to know how they see my role in the relationship, and also that I have something of value to provide to them, which makes me more trusting of them.
    - No sudden negative emotional surprises. It's not that I won't forgive, but if I get a hit that I didn't see coming that indicates the other person sees me radically differently than anything they indicated to me before (particularly publicly), I won't be coming back for more of same soon. It takes a LOOOOOONNNNG time to regain trust after something like that.
    - The person's character and general treatment of the people around them. Their decision-making. If I trust their judgement generally, I'm more likely to open up to them.
    - Someone who can get me to try new things or who can draw me into a group. I'm kind of tentative in some ways, although rigid in others. I like the counterpoint of someone who is able to get me to trust them enough that I will allow them to take me out of my comfort zone.
    - Who they are close to - often says a lot about their own inner world that can't always be seen just by knowing the person. What are they drawn to, what negative qualities are they indulgent of and to what extent, do they act differently around certain people, what traits they value, commonalities between their different friends, how they feel about family, etc. Gives me a better idea of whether I want to be part of their world and to what extent I would like to allow them into mine.
    - Affinity to the other person - Ni connection or some other trait that allows for unspoken communication or feeling of closeness or understanding naturally.
    - Good listener - I don't talk people's ears off and try to be sensitive to their interests. If they get distracted easily during a conversation, share way different amounts of information than I do, or don't ask about something I was talking about that was important after we get interrupted, I take it as an expression of disinterest and I am unlikely to share more.
    - Perceptivity - decent judge of character and of changes in emotional temperature in a room or in a social situation.
    - Someone who seems to understand me accurately without it being too much effort for either of us to get there.

  2. #62
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Taking it a bit broader - question to the INFJs - what is it exactly that results in the INFJ extending that trust and opening up? I don't know that it has anything to do with internal consistency but it seems like it is certainly something. Time? Behaviors over time? Is there some kind of inflection point that occurs? What builds up that trust over time and what tears it down?
    Consistency in how a person treats me over time, although my need to connect with a few people closely can outweigh my uneasiness about trusting, so I sometimes take really big risks. I've entered relationships where I was so certain the person wouldn't hurt me that I couldn't see that they were hurting me and manipulating me for a while. I don't really hate the people who hurt me either.

    I tend to like people and hope to find reasons that explain (and in some cases excuse) hurtful behavior. I don't know if I feel absolute trust for anyone, including myself. I think of people as being like animals and mostly reactionary. I see people as kaleidoscope patterns in which there are some underlying core ways of being that continually reconfigure based on circumstance, both inner and outer experiences. Even people who have said and done scarring things to me I can still like and be helpful with, and in some cases re-establish a deepest connection. I get rather obsessed with the rift analyzing all possible reasons it happened, and when I can come up with one or more plausible explanations, then I can put it to rest.

    I often feel pretty disconnected from the world and have a feeling that I think quite differently, which makes me feel a bit estranged from others socially, even if I can participate in a pleasant chat or helpful endeavor, or shared project. A deep connection has to do with finding someone who I think will both understand me and be consistently kind to me. My normal self is rather non-reactive emotionally and not invested in the same things most people are. The way I think is extremely speculative and nebulous which is one enormous difference I find when trying to communicate with others who tend to have crystalized opinions and view certain ideas as facts and certainties.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  3. #63
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Can you describe what you mean by normative communication?
    Normative communication is about sharing assumptions with a cultural group. In my closer cultures I find it includes certain types of competitive talk, certain social games of distance/friendliness, flattery, specific responses expected when there is a baby, a graduation picture, ways of reacting to religious ritual, things that are said to show romantic involvement - but not to much, ways of communicating the way you wish to connect with another person, etc.

    People who excel at this create one large, nuanced, inner system to account for all the conscious and unconscious expectations of that social norm. It is difficult for most people to change to another norm quickly. For me I have numerous, smaller inner systems to account for different sorts of people, but no one system is as well developed as the one big one is for most people, so I rely on a lot of approximation and underlying principles that tend to apply to humanity in general. Because of this I can be seen to have moments of unusually clear insight that most people overlook, and at the same time be a huge social duffus.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This seems like a really important point. It helps to explain some of the conflict I've seen on the forum between INFJs and other types (especially NFPs). It just like this huge trigger.
    These are always unfortunate, I think, for everyone.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't mean trust as in opening up to others. I mean a trust in the other person's motives and giving them credit without needing behaviors to align with a model that person may not even be aware of.
    I feel read 100% wrong by INFJs much of the time. It's very disappointing, because there can be an illusion of understanding at first. It seems INFJs, being more deliberate regarding an outcome, seem to put feelers out there & use responses to align someone with the some expectation - but if you are unaware of this, then you may not respond with the same outcome in mind. This is a matter of framing things correctly, framing which INFJs say they may shift, but how is the correct frame chosen?

    The mentioned "randomness" is not random to me - everything has some greater significance than its surface or I'd not bother with it. I don't tell rambling stories with no point (and have never had such a reaction lodged at me). These pictures of INFPs don't resonate with me, which shows me there is a communication gap going on. Perhaps it is the idiosyncrasy of IxFPs, where it's hard to find a common thread to build expectations, but I suppose from the inside view, I don't see us as that unpredictable. Whatever archetype the INFJ finally concocts for us feels ill-fitting. It's not necessarily insulting or negative, it's just wrong. I'm wondering what is getting lost in translation.... I know some of it is that we are not adhering to the general model, but as I said, there IS a model, & a quite consistent one, but it's our own (the inner ideal). I don't know how much of that needs to be known to be accepted or if it ever can be - hence the "trust" question.
    Thank you for helping me understand what you meant by trust. I need to brainstorm, think at the keys, as if we were having a conversation in real time. So, I'm literally going to ramble off what's going through my head.

    Let's see... Ne and Ni can work well together but coupled with Fi and Fe and Ti and Te and Si and Se, you can see how we are...um quasi-identicals. Similar interests but entirely different ways of perceiving, understanding and experiencing. We rarely truly connect, I think. It's like some sort of cognitive language barrier. So, you're right in saying that something is getting lost in the translation. But I wonder if it is possible that we can discover what it is and learn to compensate for it's inevitable occurrence.

    So, now I'm thinking that it's possible that an INFJ may not have the ability to frame you correctly as you know you truly are, because we come form different realities. Also, the framing isn't deliberate. It's simply a navigation tool. Like constellations named after things they don't actually look like in order to help ancient sailors navigate. They were inaccurate in their descriptions, but useful to the sailors in there generalities. A framed reference is not all a person is, and a general category doesn't define a person's existence or essence. It's important to realize that language is never sufficient to tell you how a person really sees you. And it may be that you can't be framed (that no model can be formed) and so will always be analyzed anew every time, which can be exhausting for both parties, eventually. Ni and Ti are like that together. Everything gets analyzed, sorted, categorized by characteristics, but it doesn't mean you're not seen as individuals or unique. It's just the way we have of navigating the world of people. I don't think there is an actual model that a person must ascribe to in order to be trusted, to be heard in actuality, so much as there is a lack of familiarity in functions. The INFJ may be genuinely trying to hear, but their entire way of listening is foreign.

    Even though an INFJ may truly trying to hear you, to understand you, he or she may lack the ability to understand your exact meaning. INFJs may never speak INFP language because its alien to them, just as INFPs never truly speak INFJ for the same reason, but again, we can realize the barrier exists and be lenient with one another, allowing that stuff gets jumbled in translation.

    In regards to the bolded area of your response, I think you have stated the crux of the matter by referring to the inside view. I believe that is where we loose each other in the translation. We have difficulty seeing through each other's eyes.

    I want you to know that I sincerely appreciate this conversation and that you took the time to come back and discuss it.

    I may miss the mark on many points, but if I don't offer a non-defensive, truthful look at my own cognitive functions, then truly I am guilty of putting people into ill fitting categories. Maybe that's how frames are shifted and reformed, how the correct ones are chosen, by free-flowing conversation where both parties show a level of emotional and mental maturity, where neither is worried about how they come across more than getting to the real heart of the matter. I don't know about other INFJs but I know that I search for truths on which to build my frameworks. If my perception of those truths are flawed then I wish to alter them.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #65
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't mean trust as in opening up to others. I mean a trust in the other person's motives and giving them credit without needing behaviors to align with a model that person may not even be aware of.
    I feel read 100% wrong by INFJs much of the time. It's very disappointing, because there can be an illusion of understanding at first. It seems INFJs, being more deliberate regarding an outcome, seem to put feelers out there & use responses to align someone with the some expectation - but if you are unaware of this, then you may not respond with the same outcome in mind. This is a matter of framing things correctly, framing which INFJs say they may shift, but how is the correct frame chosen?

    The mentioned "randomness" is not random to me - everything has some greater significance than its surface or I'd not bother with it. I don't tell rambling stories with no point (and have never had such a reaction lodged at me). These pictures of INFPs don't resonate with me, which shows me there is a communication gap going on. Perhaps it is the idiosyncrasy of IxFPs, where it's hard to find a common thread to build expectations, but I suppose from the inside view, I don't see us as that unpredictable. Whatever archetype the INFJ finally concocts for us feels ill-fitting. It's not necessarily insulting or negative, it's just wrong. I'm wondering what is getting lost in translation.... I know some of it is that we are not adhering to the general model, but as I said, there IS a model, & a quite consistent one, but it's our own (the inner ideal). I don't know how much of that needs to be known to be accepted or if it ever can be - hence the "trust" question.
    Do you think, OA, that there is perhaps more individuality and less across the board similarities between INFPs generally? I've wondered about this in the past, but don't have a way of really finding out. I realize that enneagram certainly would play into it, but wonder if there is more to it as well. What do you think? Does each INFP have a separate inner model rather than more generalized traits?

    As to the first paragraph, I'm not sure yet what I think. I believe you are right that we tend to read INFPs wrong. It seems like there's potential, but we consistently miss each other. I don't know if it is helpful or not, but for what it's worth, the set of expectations I have aren't ones that I am consciously choosing. They are not even just Fe values, but more fundamental to the process of me learning to know and trust someone else. It's not that I want to be all unfair and judge someone against a set of standards they don't even know exist. It's more like I need that feeling of safety for the relationship to progress. As Ene said, it's not even that I'll consciously let people in closer according to what I think they deserve, so much as layers unpeel themselves on their own in response to...something.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't mean trust as in opening up to others. I mean a trust in the other person's motives and giving them credit without needing behaviors to align with a model that person may not even be aware of.
    I feel read 100% wrong by INFJs much of the time. It's very disappointing, because there can be an illusion of understanding at first. It seems INFJs, being more deliberate regarding an outcome, seem to put feelers out there & use responses to align someone with the some expectation - but if you are unaware of this, then you may not respond with the same outcome in mind. This is a matter of framing things correctly, framing which INFJs say they may shift, but how is the correct frame chosen?

    The mentioned "randomness" is not random to me - everything has some greater significance than its surface or I'd not bother with it. I don't tell rambling stories with no point (and have never had such a reaction lodged at me). These pictures of INFPs don't resonate with me, which shows me there is a communication gap going on. Perhaps it is the idiosyncrasy of IxFPs, where it's hard to find a common thread to build expectations, but I suppose from the inside view, I don't see us as that unpredictable. Whatever archetype the INFJ finally concocts for us feels ill-fitting. It's not necessarily insulting or negative, it's just wrong. I'm wondering what is getting lost in translation.... I know some of it is that we are not adhering to the general model, but as I said, there IS a model, & a quite consistent one, but it's our own (the inner ideal). I don't know how much of that needs to be known to be accepted or if it ever can be - hence the "trust" question.
    Do you think, OA, that there is perhaps more individuality and less across the board similarities between INFPs generally? I've wondered about this in the past, but don't have a way of really finding out. I realize that enneagram certainly would play into it, but wonder if there is more to it as well. What do you think? Does each INFP have a separate inner model rather than more generalized traits?

    As to the first paragraph, I'm not sure yet what I think. I believe you are right that we tend to read INFPs wrong. It seems like there's potential, but we consistently miss each other. I don't know if it is helpful or not, but for what it's worth, the set of expectations I have aren't ones that I am consciously choosing. They are not even just Fe values, but more fundamental to the process of me learning to know and trust someone else. It's not that I want to be all unfair and judge someone against a set of standards they don't even know exist. It's more like I need that feeling of safety for the relationship to progress. As Ene said, it's not even that I'll consciously let people in closer according to what I think they deserve, so much as layers unpeel themselves on their own in response to...something./

  6. #66
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Do you think, OA, that there is perhaps more individuality and less across the board similarities between INFPs generally? I've wondered about this in the past, but don't have a way of really finding out. I realize that enneagram certainly would play into it, but wonder if there is more to it as well. What do you think? Does each INFP have a separate inner model rather than more generalized traits?
    Yes and no. Each INFP has a separate inner model for themselves, but the fundamentals are the same, because the inner human landscape is not all that different from the human body, if we use that as a metaphor. The essential structures are the same, even if a nearly infinite variety of appearances exist. This means there is enough similarity in these inner models for some predictability, which is why we can identify INFPs to begin with (and why we IxFPs are able to feel similarities between ourselves & use the self as a mostly reliable prototype for "human").

    I'm less interested in explaining the workings of IxFPs than understanding if INFJs pick up on this alternate model and give it validity. The answer seems to be "no". The frustration with the INFP is "I must be always be the one to adapt", which we do a lot more than people realize. But maybe others do it more than we realize to, and maybe it's with that "framing" INFJs seem to do.

    The only reason I even want this model validated is because people don't respond to the soundness of reasoning - they respond to their view of someone & how that person affects them. But these feelings are according to that model, which they use to interpret things. How they rate someone & how they are affected is in relation to this model.


    I don't know if it is helpful or not, but for what it's worth, the set of expectations I have aren't ones that I am consciously choosing. They are not even just Fe values, but more fundamental to the process of me learning to know and trust someone else. It's not that I want to be all unfair and judge someone against a set of standards they don't even know exist. It's more like I need that feeling of safety for the relationship to progress. As Ene said, it's not even that I'll consciously let people in closer according to what I think they deserve, so much as layers unpeel themselves on their own in response to...something./
    Well, as noted, I am not seeking to be "let in" by any INFJ. I am seeking to be heard (by anyone & everyone) and have what is expressed judged on its own merit, not an evaluation of my demeanor - to not be invalidated because I don't meet their unknown model for what means what.

    For example, in those discussions, the focus often becomes "what is her motive?" not "what is her point?". I suppose this is because I am not meeting some model (unknown to me) for someone with respectable motive. But I meet my own model just fine, experiencing myself as transparent, and it seems other FPs experience me similarly.

    I feel like "The Idiot" all of sudden.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #67
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I wasn't suggesting you were trying to be let in. Just conveying what things look like to me as far as process. I think part of the problem is that INFJs find the motive so fundamental to the interpretation of the point that it is almost impossible to separate the two. It tells the INFJ how to proceed in communication, what aspects are going to be useful or relevant to the other person, what they would find satisfying out of the exchange, where to start from, and whether they consider themselves a friend or foe. Without that information, it feels like being stuck in the middle of the ocean with a limited water supply and a rudderless boat. I don't know how to proceed.

    I know that is not how INFPs see the world, and my best way of bridging that gap between is developing working coping skills for some situations and generally choosing someone with more common ground to be close to because it is not fair to ask the other party to do all the adjusting and I can't conduct a close relationship feeling constantly ill at ease, even though I recognize the inherent value and worth of the other person.

    Must mull over the first part of your response more.

  8. #68
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Internal consistency? Very little to none I'd wager. They don't read that space, not the way you and I read it. So, as a con it means your internal constancy means little to nothing for establishing trust, but as a pro, that space in you remains inaccessible and thus can stay mostly private, or as private as you wish it to be.
    You're right, I didn't see that space or know it existed until some months ago. But once I realized it was there, I could see just how solid and trustworthy it can be. Perhaps even more trustworthy, in ways, than the outward consistency I tend to look for.

    I think for the most part you'll still be able to to keep that space private. I don't think I can read it, only know that it's there.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #69
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think INTJs are very focused on influencing long term direction and outcomes. People are a necessary part of that but persuading them is not necessarily a super strong gift. It's more of a brute force approach. We don't say words for specific effect really.
    Just like that. Oh you didn't want me to phone her, just text with your exact words? I did get you the result, didn't I?

  10. #70
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The only reason I even want this model validated is because people don't respond to the soundness of reasoning - they respond to their view of someone & how that person affects them. But these feelings are according to that model, which they use to interpret things. How they rate someone & how they are affected is in relation to this model.
    I hear you and I do not yet fully know why it has mattered to me this much either. Understanding the why of this is a place I've extensively explored inside myself. You see, I think INFJs see themselves as having the deepest insights into people, and they take a certain pride in that, wrap some ego identity around that. In presenting this type of persona to the world, I've bought into it, I too have felt that INFJs could possibly see our model and then system-build with that new knowledge? Knowledge that's more about ... what we know about? As Ene said above, she wants the truth. Isn't that what we all wish for? So, I (mistakenly) thought if I open that place, what I call the Fi place and let it be seen raw and open and honestly bare, that once seen, it would be incorporated into the Ni systems and accounted for. But 99% of the time that has not happened, mostly the opposite happens - active rejection. As you have, I have taken great social risks in trying to make that connection (which aren't even recognized as such) only to be interpreted as having axes to grind myself, which is very far from the truth. And frustrating as hell sometimes.

    Part of this issue stems I think from egoic Ni. Each introverted function carries an attractive self-delusion, and the Ni delusion is that they see the whole picture, that their perceptions are the deepest and widest and wisest. Rationally, in order for this to be true however, they would need to be able to perceive everything. And since they can't perceive that deep inner human space (and we have a lot of evidence to support this assertion because we know they don't see us or "get" us) we already know that they aren't the deepest or widest or wisest. It's probably not fair for us to be disappointed about that, but it does kind of make me feel sad which signals to me that this ideal of connection I held will go unrealized.

    (And no, I am not saying Fi is that super-wise space either - but Fi-doms already inherently KNOW we as individuals aren't privy to the whole picture, and that therefore no individuals or collectives are, so it generally isn't a lesson geared to our cognitive space. We have to get knocked on the head in different ways.)

    So, this is where I am now. I have come to understand more deeply that some people's internal constancy is dictated only by my (internally driven) external one, and this isn't a "failing" on their part, it's just the way it is. This is not much different than me being internally assisted by other people's external orderliness from time to time. Many people just do not have an internal capacity to self-manage that internal space. And honestly, needing to control the external is alien and feels shallow to me but at least I know what they need and why they need it and it's not because they are some sort of "problem". And I can provide at least a good simulation of external constancy in many cases, BUT I will add this is at great effort. It's not my natural strength.

    However, if someone's opinion of me is founded solely on that one-way transaction, if they cannot see past my occasional yet inevitable lapses in external reliability and grace me, assign me some positive intent for the massive efforts I undergo to provide external clarity when my wiring tends me more to the internal realm, then that has to be their problem and not mine. I am doing the best that I can, which is all that anyone can reasonably expect of any human being. I cannot take ownership of everything. So I am trying to show more of my inner space, the order of that and if I am not accepted, then so be it. If you only like me because I am nice and make your life easy, then take a hike. I can no longer afford to spend so much effort on this process, I owe more to myself than that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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