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  1. #141
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Really, it's up to each individual how much or how little they want to bend. However, I think it's important to show that there IS a range, and that we're not just doomed to lives of anxiety, mistrust, and misunderstanding.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    [...] I don't think it is fair for others to have to accommodate that need, but at the same time, without another effective coping system in place, it is a need, not just a preference. So I guess the question is, what works most effectively to make the need for minimal turbulence less important?
    Just sort of picking up on the general theme of how much each personality type should have to accommodate the quirks of other personality types...

    Well, you can't have 16 different ways of talking, one for each of the different types. It's bad enough that one has to master multiple vernaculars, such as formal speech, written speech, street slang, internet slang, baby talk, etc. It would be terrible if I had to divine the personality type of each person I met and change my manner of speaking accordingly.

    Frankly, I think it's enough to work out a middle ground for addressing people in general, and then it's up to the INFJ I'm addressing (or whatever other type) to realize that this is a normal way of speaking and that my intent is not to brutalize them or insult them. This gets back to maturity of one's type and the use of Fe-Aux to subject Ni-Dom to "reality checks" (in the case of INFJs). IOW, an INFJ may find my direct manner of speech personally jarring, but a simple "reality check" should reassure them that my manner of address is still within the normal range and hence shouldn't be found alarming. And if the INFJ still wishes to recoil with fright and horror and refuse to communicate with me at that point, well that's on them. Some people are skittish; that doesn't put any obligation on me to change my life (or mode of speech) to suit them.

    As a side note: Young INFPs are prone to consider themselves as hothouse flowers in need of special care and handling. But over time they usually find the world doesn't pay much attention. So when INFJs make that same claim against INFPs, I hope you'll forgive INFPs for being a little unsympathetic and saying "Oh really....?"

    There are other ramifications to this issue: What does a true hothouse flower do to catch up and toughen their skins to the everyday intercourse of other types? And what would be the obligation of partners or spouses when these kinds of typological vulnerabilities or quirks keep fouling communications between them?

    But I'll stop here. The thread has been about general intercourse between types, and not about those other questions.

  3. #143
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    @Southern Kross - I was thinking some more about it what you wrote. (Funny how it helps me define what I think by having the chance to bounce it off someone else.).
    That's what NFPs are good for. (It's depressing how rarely I get to say that )

    I think the issue of disagreement is primarily uncomfortable to me when the objective of the person disagreeing is unclear to me ( they say they are not trying to persuade, help me, inform, etc), so it just seems hostile, or when the person doesn't seem to be on the same "team" as me (there doesn't seem to be goodwill or starting from some common ground).
    This makes more sense. So you need to know from the outset whether that person is "on your team"? Disagreement from someone on the same team as you is different, because they are seen as potentially facilitating some sort of progress and betterment for the team(?). Disagreement from people seemingly "on the other team" is seen as a threat and perhaps part of an attempt to bring down your own team.

    One of the ideas I've been presented with here is that to more Ne and Te users, neither the person's manner of communicating, nor their "qualifications" (track record, trustedness, expertise) are nearly as important as the idea themselves. I can see pros and cons to this. Because this is one of the primary ways I would determine who I could trust or should listen to, even when I know I need to be more open, it is hard for me to know then how I would go about doing so effectively without losing my way of navigation.
    Yes, there are definitely flaws in this. I've been guilty of seizing up some idea that is compelling to me without really gauging the viability of the source. I wouldn't in any way say I'm naive, but I can get temporarily carried away at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Thank you, Southern Kross. I have seen that cornering thing happen at times to various participants.
    Just to be clear I don't think it's necessarily deliberate. It's just a way of communicating that can make it difficult for me to mentally span the conversation or even think for myself - I'm left with nothing else to say.

    I think we do have our equivalent of kryptonite.(I like how you phrased that, btw) For me, it's overload, too much info coming in at one time and I can't process it all and therefore, perhaps misinterpret the poster's meaning or intent.
    Is part of the difficulty that it makes it hard to wade through it all and put things back on course?

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    Your posts about this have been helpful (I remember you bringing this up before). I wasn't aware this was even a thing until you'd pointed it out.
    I sometimes wonder if I tend to overstate it, but I do seem to think that Pi doms/aux have no clue about the degree with which Pe operates on 'instinct' (not sure if that's really the word but it will do). We really are just trying to figure things out as we go along and if there's something that impedes those instincts we're plain useless and can be pretty resentful about it

    I totally realise that I do the same with Judgements, where I inadvertently or lazily shut down the conversation by stating things a little too decisively. I can sometimes see Fe users visibly deflate when the discussion dead-ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I certainly feel like I also tend to bow out of threads if they become too unpleasantly conflict-laden. At times I've avoided the majority of the forum, because of the level of ongoing vitriol.
    I don't like vitriol, but I'm not as threatened by disagreement and heated debate as I used to be. It's when someone starts saying things that goes strongly against my values and/or pushes my buttons that I find it's best to get out of there. I don't get drawn into something where I'm only communicating out of anger and getting stuck in the same old BS, back-and-forth with idiots that goes nowhere - that usually ends with me more angry and frustrated than before and unable to think straight. There's so many threads on topics that I have strong beliefs about that I never post in and maybe never even look at, for fear of the emotional upheaval. The only way around it is for me to go into it and take people on like a ENTJ: cool-headed, nonchalant, irreverent, superior, and then engage in a sort of wry logic-trolling against the fools people I disagree with. This is the only way for me to do it without coming off like some shrill, table-thumping harpy.

    I feel like it's been less bad of late generally, but it does seem like more than a couple of INFJs feel themselves to be particularly picked-upon as a group. It would be a positive thing if real discussions could happen without people feeling unfairly singled out (either as individuals or as a group). Still, being human means that some level of miscommunication and irritation is going to happen some percentage of time.
    They have been singled out too much, yes. I think part of the problem is that the previous threads were never really resolved in a way that either the INFJs or the non-INFJs (primarily NFPs) felt was satisfactory. I felt that I learned a lot, but I can't say that the experience was cathartic.

    As far as kryptonite, I feel like I can tend to be "future blind" in a particularly kind of way, in that I can tend to avoid seeing the outcome of events as inevitable. I also tend to be bad at seeing long term subtle trends across interactions and contexts. I think the up site for Perceivers is being more aware of the "instantaneous momentum," and being able to tune in accordance with that perception.

    Conversely, I feel like INFJs have a much better handle on the momentum of relationships and interactions (both with individuals and groups). However, I think they struggle more with moment to moment variations.
    I agree.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #144
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @YUIOh, we don't need some sixteen different ways of talking. Nope. That would be an inefficient use of our time. What we need is assimilation into the collective. Resistance is futile. You will add to our perfection. @Eilonwy, our resident Borg, will assist you. Prepare for nano probe injection momentarily.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @YUIOh, we don't need some sixteen different ways of talking. Nope. That would be an inefficient use if our time. What we need is assimilation into the collective. Resistance is futile. You will add to our perfection. @Eilonwy, our resident Borg, will assist you. Prepare for nano probe injection momentarily.
    Ahh! Merging with the fabled "INFJ hive mind." Sounds hawt!

  6. #146
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Ahh! Merging with the fabled "INFJ hive mind." Sounds hawt!
    Haha, at very least it would be interesting. There would be instant understanding!
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  7. #147
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    I think my cortical node is malfunctioning. I must regenerate now. But I will return.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #148
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    At least for me, when I am talking about making adjustments, I'm primarily thinking in terms of close working relationships, family members, spouses etc. Clearly, no one can turn themselves inside out to be all things to all people. In most cases, differences in communication are not that serious unless they are unavoidable. Even then, it's hard to make any generalizations because factoring in individuals, type of relationship, age, maturity, life experiences, environment, history, situation and culture make for endless permutations.

    For me, the issue is not whether or not I should bend to accommodate others and to stretch my own comfort zone to encompass more people and communication styles. It's got more to do with how to use the functions I have in the most healthy and productive way possible, making the most of their inherent strengths, rather than becoming restricted or enslaved by the inherent weaknesses of that function set (and hurting or inconveniencing others in the process).

    In practical terms, what does that look like, and how does one get there?

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    At least for me, when I am talking about making adjustments, I'm primarily thinking in terms of close working relationships, family members, spouses etc. Clearly, no one can turn themselves inside out to be all things to all people. In most cases, differences in communication are not that serious unless they are unavoidable. Even then, it's hard to make any generalizations because factoring in individuals, type of relationship, age, maturity, life experiences, environment, history, situation and culture make for endless permutations.

    For me, the issue is not whether or not I should bend to accommodate others and to stretch my own comfort zone to encompass more people and communication styles. It's got more to do with how to use the functions I have in the most healthy and productive way possible, making the most of their inherent strengths, rather than becoming restricted or enslaved by the inherent weaknesses of that function set (and hurting or inconveniencing others in the process).

    In practical terms, what does that look like, and how does one get there?
    I would give the same answer as before. Your top four functions are my bottom four functions. Therefore, it's going to be a question of bridging differences rather than "using the functions you have in the most healthy and productive way possible and making the most of their inherent strengths."

  10. #150
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Just read your post, @SouthernKross. You do an excellent job of summarizing points and asking questions, in a way that is really helpful.

    There are all kinds of rabbit trails your thoughtful responses have sparked! ( As an aside - one of the biggest, but good problems in my correspondence with INFP friends is that each idea discussed sparks several more conversations. On paper, this can become extremely daunting to get it all down, as the response to that is also exponential in nature!)

    Re disagreement: I think it might also have to do with the seriousness of the disagreement, as well as how emotionally charged it is. I find conflict much less uncomfortable than I once did. However, the degree to which I will delve into it often has to do with what I project the outcome to be. Maybe it's about efficiency for me. If we agree on a lot of the foundational aspects of something but disagree about the details or implementation, then it seems possible that the discussion will yield something useful. If not, then the whole effort seems like a losing proposition before it even starts and I'll withdraw. Just as I feel personally attacked if the sense of being in the same side isn't established, I also am uncomfortable with disagreeing with someone about foundational aspects of their idea/argument/plan, as it feels like I am personally attacking them and I'm not sure that I want to deal with all the projected fallout of that. Similarly, if both parties are not overly emotional and more analytical, it feels more comfortable to express disagreement and to accept it without reading it as a personal thing. Emotion makes disagreement feel a lot more personal to me and I become less comfortable with it.

    So I may withdraw from contact in a thread with someone I know I will not be able to productively discuss something with, yet engage with others. In my mind, I am respecting their space and protecting the future potential of our interactions, while to them it may look like a marked effort to devalue their ideas and promote others' or silence them by ignoring their presence. I am sensitive to especially public embarrassment or singling out. I'm treating them as I'd wish to be treated by someone who disagrees with me fundamentally. In short, I am doing precisely what I was attempting to avoid, thinking that I am being kind.

    On the other hand, engaging in conflict that doesn't have a clear objective or a productive foreseeable outcome is exhausting and unnecessary to me. Is there a middle ground that can work for both parties?

    I realize now that it is very constricting to some people to have to know what the point of the discussion is before it has taken shape. For me, if it is negative, I want to know what is going to right the boat that has been capsized and get the people out if the water as quickly as possible (to use Seymour's metaphor). It's not an effort to squelch or to sweep problems under the rug, although I think that it very much can appear that way. Rather, in my mind, I'm just making sure there are no casualties and that things will be okay in the end. The future outcome is planned for at the expense of the present! Until coming here, I honestly didn't realize that this was a thing. Now, I'm guessing it's like when people want to rush is into decision making without properly understanding the particulars of the situation, as uncomfortable as that might be in the moment.

    Lots more food for thought, but will post this before it gets too monstrous!

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