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  1. #131
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Just saw the post above. Personalitypage.com has some interesting material about what goes wrong with the various personality types and how to fix such problems.

    Using the example of INFJs, Personalitypage.com says that Fe is the bridge between internal Ni and the outside world. Thus:

    --In an immature INFJ, Fe tends to be used in service to Ni: Fe is directed outward at the world and is used to shut out or keep at bay those parts of the world that conflict with Ni and its conclusions. As a result, Ni becomes increasingly isolated and goes awry.

    --In order to achieve greater maturity, a more effective use of Fe would be to direct Fe inward and use it to judge Ni and its conclusions and bring them more into correspondence with the outside world. That would bring Ni under the sway of the same "reality checks" that the rest of the world has to obey.

    Here's the link: INFJ Personal Growth

    And by the way, don't shoot the messenger and start arguing with me about it. I'm just repeating what they say at Personalitypage.com.

    Naturally, the same would apply to INTJs, with Te substituting for Fe: INTJ Personal Growth
    I have heard exactly that same thing a out INTJs re Te and Ni. That makes sense.

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  2. #132
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YUI View Post
    Just saw the post above. Personalitypage.com has some interesting material about what goes wrong with the various personality types and how to fix such problems.

    Using the example of INFJs, Personalitypage.com says that Fe is the bridge between internal Ni and the outside world. Thus:

    --In an immature INFJ, Fe tends to be used in service to Ni: Fe is directed outward at the world and is used to shut out or keep at bay those parts of the world that conflict with Ni and its conclusions. As a result, Ni becomes increasingly isolated and goes awry.

    --In order to achieve greater maturity, a more effective use of Fe would be to direct Fe inward and use it to judge Ni and its conclusions and bring them more into correspondence with the outside world. That would bring Ni under the sway of the same "reality checks" that the rest of the world has to obey.

    Here's the link: INFJ Personal Growth

    And by the way, don't shoot the messenger and start arguing with me about it. I'm just repeating what they say at Personalitypage.com.

    Naturally, the same would apply to INTJs, with Te substituting for Fe: INTJ Personal Growth
    BANG!

    Just kidding.

    This was helpful info (and, wow, the INTJ and INFJ pages read a lot alike.) thanks for providing the links.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #133
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I just want to say I know how that feels too, and I'm glad you guys are showing some resilience and pressing on in hopes of a positive outcomes....

    I often give up on conversations here when I get irritated with a person's post and argument style. I just find myself no longer caring enough about the subject matter to even bother continuing. It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.

    I do make a conscious choice not to use the ignore option for posters I don't like. I don't want to censor people that disagree with me or piss me off. It can be friggin hard to deal with, but I think that it's better for me in the long run.
    Thank you, Southern Kross. I have seen that cornering thing happen at times to various participants.

    I think we do have our equivalent of kryptonite.(I like how you phrased that, btw) For me, it's overload, too much info coming in at one time and I can't process it all and therefore, perhaps misinterpret the poster's meaning or intent.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #134
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.
    Your posts about this have been helpful (I remember you bringing this up before). I wasn't aware this was even a thing until you'd pointed it out.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  5. #135
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    INFJ Communication:
    Regarding INFJ communication, what I'm hearing is not only "this is how INFJs communicate" but "this is what we absolutely need in order to communicate". To my knowledge, here at TypoC, INFJs are the only type, as a group, to assert that there is a list of criteria that must be met in order for them to be able to communicate. Other type groups might ask for accommodations, but I haven't seen them saying that they aren't able to communicate if they aren't accommodated. Individuals might refuse to talk to other individuals for whatever reasons, but they don't claim that their reasons are representative of their whole type, or say they can't communicate at all because of those reasons.
    That's an interesting observation. To be honest, when I read Fidelia's list of how to successfully interact above, I felt a kind of despair of being able to interact positively with INFJs over time. I'm not going to be absolutely consistent over time; I've gotten better about being more consistent as I've gotten older, but it remains a real balancing act for me. It's a little like trying to step on a lump in the carpet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I just want to say I know how that feels too, and I'm glad you guys are showing some resilience and pressing on in hopes of a positive outcomes. It surprises me, fidela, that you see such disagreement as a sign of your thought process being too much at odds with that person to be worth it. It must be difficult to continue on through all that.

    I often give up on conversations here when I get irritated with a person's post and argument style. I just find myself no longer caring enough about the subject matter to even bother continuing. It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.
    I certainly feel like I also tend to bow out of threads if they become too unpleasantly conflict-laden. At times I've avoided the majority of the forum, because of the level of ongoing vitriol. I feel like it's been less bad of late generally, but it does seem like more than a couple of INFJs feel themselves to be particularly picked-upon as a group. It would be a positive thing if real discussions could happen without people feeling unfairly singled out (either as individuals or as a group). Still, being human means that some level of miscommunication and irritation is going to happen some percentage of time.

    As far as kryptonite, I feel like I can tend to be "future blind" in a particular kind of way, in that I can tend to avoid seeing the outcome of events as inevitable. I also tend to be bad at seeing long term subtle trends across interactions and contexts. I think the up site for Perceivers is being more aware of the "instantaneous momentum," and being able to tune in accordance with that perception.

    Conversely, I feel like INFJs have a much better handle on the momentum of relationships and interactions (both with individuals and groups). However, I think they struggle more with moment to moment variations.


    Sometimes I get the sense the INFJs experience themselves as each piloting tiny, unstable boats across a deep and mysterious sea. To make matters worse, each person has a storm waiting to be released within. The INFJs therefore want their own storms contained (both for themselves and others on the waters), and want neighbors upon the water who are willing to do likewise. They want neighbors who can help fish them out of the water when they capsize, and get them dried and on course as soon as may be.

    INFPs, on the other hand, tend to be swimming around in the driving rain remarking to those within earshot, "Swimming in a storm is awesome! Don't you just LOVE a good storm?!?" I fear it comes across as total madness to the INFJs.


    [As an aside, the advice for INFP growth isn't too dissimilar than the one for INFJ growth: one has to let reality and different perspectives in. It seems like we are two of the most idealistic types, but with differing visions of how to get to an ideal place. INFPs want each person to work toward their own goal and be respected for it, and then a chaotic but beautiful mosaic will emerge. INFJs seem to want everyone to harmoniously join forces to work toward a goal that will benefit all, creating a wondrous tapestry in which neighbor supports neighbor. (Wow, I think I need a healthy dose of cynicism after typing that paragraph. Ick!)]
    Last edited by Seymour; 09-01-2014 at 03:31 PM.

  6. #136
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    [As an aside, the advice for INFP growth isn't too dissimilar than the one for INFJ growth: one has to let reality and different perspectives in. It seems like we are two of the most idealistic types, but with differing visions of how to get to an ideal place. INFPs want each person to work toward their own goal and be respected for it, and then a chaotic but beautiful mosaic will emerge. INFJs seem to want everyone to harmoniously join forces to work toward a goal that will benefit all, creating a wondrous tapestry in which neighbor supports neighbor. (Wow, I think I need a healthy dose of cynicism after typing that paragraph. Ick!)]
    Maybe I can do the bolded for you. Idealism=/=reality. Life's a bitch and then you die.



    Seriously, though, idealism can be great to strive for as long as you don't fall prey to your own, or someone else's, BS.
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    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #137
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Maybe I can do the bolded for you. Idealism=/=reality. Life's a bitch and then you die.
    *whew* I feel much better. Thanks! :-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Seriously, though, idealism can be great to strive for as long as you don't fall prey to your own, or someone else's, BS.
    I might say "idealism tempered with reality can be great to..." Otherwise, idealism turns into a lot of frustrated rage at people for just being ordinary flawed human beings... that's not a fun place to live.

  8. #138
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    I might say "idealism tempered with reality can be great to..." Otherwise, idealism turns into a lot of frustrated rage at people for just being ordinary flawed human beings... that's not a fun place to live.
    Tru dat.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #139
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    That's an interesting observation. To be honest, when I read Fidelia's list of how to successfully interact above, I felt a kind of despair of being able to interact positively with INFJs over time. I'm not going to be absolutely consistent over time; I've gotten better about being more consistent as I've gotten older, but it remains a real balancing act for me. It's a little like trying to step on a lump in the carpet.



    I certainly feel like I also tend to bow out of threads if they become too unpleasantly conflict-laden. At times I've avoided the majority of the forum, because of the level of ongoing vitriol. I feel like it's been less bad of late generally, but it does seem like more than a couple of INFJs feel themselves to be particularly picked-upon as a group. It would be a positive thing if real discussions could happen without people feeling unfairly singled out (either as individuals or as a group). Still, being human means that some level of miscommunication and irritation is going to happen some percentage of time.

    As far as kryptonite, I feel like I can tend to be "future blind" in a particularly kind of way, in that I can tend to avoid seeing the outcome of events as inevitable. I also tend to be bad at seeing long term subtle trends across interactions and contexts. I think the up site for Perceivers is being more aware of the "instantaneous momentum," and being able to tune in accordance with that perception.

    Conversely, I feel like INFJs have a much better handle on the momentum of relationships and interactions (both with individuals and groups). However, I think they struggle more with moment to moment variations.


    Sometimes I get the sense the INFJs experience themselves as each piloting tiny, unstable boats across a deep and mysterious sea. To make matters worse, each person has a storm waiting to be released within. The INFJs therefore want their own storms contained (both for themselves and others on the waters), and want neighbors upon the water who are willing to do likewise. They want neighbors who can help fish them out of the water when they capsize, and get them dried and on course as soon as may be.

    INFPs, on the other hand, tend to be swimming around in the driving rain remarking to those within earshot, "Swimming in a storm is awesome! Don't you just LOVE a good storm?!?" I fear it comes across as total madness to the INFJs.


    [As an aside, the advice for INFP growth isn't too dissimilar than the one for INFJ growth: one has to let reality and different perspectives in. It seems like we are two of the most idealistic types, but with differing visions of how to get to an ideal place. INFPs want each person to work toward their own goal and be respected for it, and then a chaotic but beautiful mosaic will emerge. INFJs seem to want everyone to harmoniously join forces to work toward a goal that will benefit all, creating a wondrous tapestry in which neighbor supports neighbor. (Wow, I think I need a healthy dose of cynicism after typing that paragraph. Ick!)]
    Seymour, I think in many ways your analogy about boats on the sea is very apt. I'm not suggesting that just because that is the way I initially react to the people around me that that is immovable or even the right way. Over the last while, I have been wrestling with how to bend, while still recognizing that the function set that was dealt is still the only one I have, but that it can be optimized. However, it is true that stability and a sense of emotional predictability is probably more needful to me than to many other types of people. Similarly, the freedom to splash and enjoy the storm without restriction is needful to other people and the trick is finding the balance between the two, especially when trying to work together.

    I think perhaps for me, consensus and a group result isn't so important as some writing about Fe seems to indicate, but awareness of everyone's landscape and needs probably is important to me in the process of decision-making.

    I want to make the distinction - the list I wrote was in response to highlander's question about how INFJs will best open themselves up to vulnerability and trust others. It is not and was not meant as a list of requirements for people to successfully interact with INFJs!

    I of course don't represent all INFJs. I also don't expect intense closeness and intimacy with very many people at all. I recognize that even the closest of people to me are not going to be able to be everything I wish, or even that I need at times, which is why it's important to have a variety of people in my support system. It would be impossible and unrealistic for one person to be able to deliver everything. Similarly, they also need a variety of people in their's as I could not provide everything they need. On the other hand, I do believe that those factors (for someone who is seeking to become closer and who wants to see the more vulnerable side of an INFJ) are ones that might be useful to have on their radar.

    I can see from many of the INFP/INFJ discussions that we approach the world very differently. For me, I would be most grateful to any type if they would give me a cheat sheet of what their priorities are, what they value most, and to give me some specific words for how best to relate to them. In short, I guess I would like scripting!!! Not in the sense of governing all interactions and outcomes, but in lighting the way for how to avoid potholes and how to make the other person feel cared for. I suppose that is why I tend to do that in my communications on this subject. It's not so much a matter of me suggesting, "You can only approach me if..." but rather, "These are hot buttons for me, which will likely result in misunderstandings and messes. Asking me specific questions that in your world would be intrusive, would be welcomed and make me feel your care. Here are some examples". I would appreciate the same from INFPs, but I sense that that simply isn't how it works and so my stating how it is for me comes off as bossy, rigid, and expecting everyone to come to me.

    What I wrote was not with the intention of discouraging or judging other people, so much as opening a window to what makes me tick in the hopes that it might be of some use to someone.

    I'm doing what is most natural, which is trying to clarify my reasoning or motivations and am stuck again, because I sense that that is not what is useful to the other parties, but I'm not sure how to deliver what is.

    I definitely relate, Seymour, to what you say about INFJs being good with future and across time patterns, but poorer with moment to moment. My weakness in that area is probably one of the reasons why at least this INFJ feels the need for more control, more predictibility in the people I am closest to, and less emotional surprises, as I am not very good at coming up with either an accurate interpretation of the situation, or a plan for how to deal with it in real time. It's a huge problem. I don't think it is fair for others to have to accommodate that need, but at the same time, without another effective coping system in place, it is a need, not just a preference. So I guess the question is, what works most effectively to make the need for minimal turbulence less important?

  10. #140
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Thanks, @fidelia... I'm mulling over a more in-depth response, but meanwhile I do appreciate what you wrote and the openness and thoughtfulness it shows. Thanks for that, and especially that we come to the table with things we didn't choose, but have to deal with anyway. It helps to hear that, since I certainly feel like that is true for me.

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