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  1. #121
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    That's it! I think it is true that most things that INFJs engage in have some kind of purpose or intent to them, even in leisure. The reasons Ene mentioned are a big part of the reason why I both came and remained here.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @Z Buck McFate and @fidelia both your posts are good reads and I identified. I just wanted to jump in and say that I've been guilty of leaving particular threads or not engaging in them at all simply because I lacked the mental energy to do so, but that's not always selfish. It's prioritizing. Like fidelia, my free time is precious and a large part of it goes to reinergizing. If I engage in a discussion and remain engaged it's because I'm either playing around, which i often do on here, to relax my overworked brain, or it's because I feel it is somehow helping someone, including myself, to learn.
    Fe tends to desire consensus; by comparison, Ne just likes to riff. And for riffing purposes, an argument can be as satisfying to Ne as an agreement.

    To spell it out:

    I'm an INFP guy; I've been conversing with an INFJ gal off and on as part of a recreational activity we both enjoy. She's attractive, intelligent (an architect), etc. She recently indicated that she would like to do stuff together in other settings as well.

    But I don't plan to take her up on it. She deals with the world via Fe, whereas I deal with the world via Ne. She has only seen me with my "Ne riff-o-meter" set on socialize/mirror/be pleasant. INFJs always love me when I'm just socializing; they think they've found a true soulmate. But eventually they press me on some political or philosophical pet peeve of theirs, my Fi kicks in, and all of a sudden I'm riffing in a whole new way for them: suddenly we're at loggerheads. I know in advance that such a moment will be coming, since it's simply the other half of my "Ne riff-o-meter" in action. But INFJs tend to take it poorly; they don't see it coming. They're so consensus-oriented that they just don't even see that I'm holding back 50% of my Ne act in order to do the social thing.

    So I would have to get a better picture of this INFJ woman and see whether she is able to get past her need for consensus, IOW, to deal with negative Ne riffing. From what I know of her, it doesn't bode well.

    Meantime, ENFJs seem to do better with lack of consensus. Being Fe-doms, their Fe is stronger (IOW, less fragile) and more differentiated than the Fe-Aux of INFJs. So as a rule they seem more able to deal with Ne negative riffing when it happens. So I'm kind of checking out a cute ENFJ woman at the same social events. She's been kind of sending signals in my direction as well...

  3. #123
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @YUI I think those are good points and I think you are wise to move slowly. Also, keep in mind that it's not just the Fe you're dealing with in an INFJ, but her Ni is where your Fi is in the functional line-up; and those two, in my experiences, have proven to be a bigger clash point than Fi and Fe (which explains the ENFJ being a better match). Still, I maintain that we are simply wired differently. I respect and admire my INFP friends but wouldn't date or become romantically involved with one, because we would work so hard at communicating that we would constantly drain each other. I personally think that INTJs and INFPs are not usually a good match either. I agree with you that an ENFJ and INFP could be a much better match.

    Edit note: I don't mind Ne riffing. Ni/Ne dominants such as INFJ and ENFP or T, can also do well. This again indicates that the gap is between Ni Dom and Fi Dom.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @YUI I think those are good points and I think you are wise to move slowly. Also, keep in mind that it's not just the Fe you're dealing with in an INFJ, but her Ni is where your Fi is in the functional line-up; and those two, in my experiences, have proven to be a bigger clash point than Fi and Fe (which explains the ENFJ being a better match). Still, I maintain that we are simply wired differently. I respect and admire my INFP friends but wouldn't date or become romantically involved with one, because we would work so hard at communicating that we would constantly drain each other. I personally think that INTJs and INFPs are not usually a good match either. I agree with you that an ENFJ and INFP could be a much better match.

    Edit note: I don't mind Ne riffing. Ni/Ne dominants such as INFJ and ENFP or T, can also do well. This again indicates that the gap is between Ni Dom and Fi Dom.
    Personally, I haven't experienced Fi/Ni differences as being a big problem. Personally, I tend to register Ni as obstinate or pig-headed, but I don't necessarily see that as a negative. Fi can be the same way.

    By comparison, the Fe/Ne difference in the way we deal with the world is a killer for me. I just don't understand the need for consensus; even my Fi doesn't agree with consensus automatically being a good thing. And meantime, INFJs really seem to be offended by my lackadaisacal don't-give-a-shit Ne attitude toward clashing with people as easily as befriending them.

    But that's just my own opinion. Otherwise I agree with your main points and your conclusions. As usual, I agree with many of the conclusions that INFJs reach, but I reach those conclusions by different routes.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Thanks.

    I realized your experience may be different. So, that is why said, in my experience. Everyone's experiences are so varied and unique.

    Yep. We reached the same conclusions.

    I would like to touch on the notion of consensus, mainly because I see this as a new avenue to explore in this whole learning to communicate thing. I have discovered that for me, personally, it's not about consensus. It's about efficiency. For example, you've heard the old saying that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care? In my life I've discovered that, as a general rule (and that may be because I'm from a rural community), people are more willing to implement my ideas if they realize that I value theirs. I don't mean it like a manipulation thing, but more like "I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and hear you out, seek to understand you in hopes that in return, you'll attempt to listen to me and understand me, too." It is a more efficient use of human energy for getting things accomplished. Fe brings concepts out of the abstract realm of Ni and into the physical realm of people. Fe is just the chosen mode of transportation. I think INFJs learn, over time, to gage the responses of others, build a database and predict an outcome. In a lot of ways, INFJs are very Vulcan-like when it comes to their own feelings. As we begin to understand ourselves, we start to corral our feelings and keep them in-check very much like the fictious aliens. So, our personal feelings are there. We do have internalized feelings but they are housed, compartmentalized. I am an idea person, task oriented with the focused intent on bringing abstract ideas into the concrete realm to put into motion concepts that will create something useful to humans in a tangible way. Yet, I'm also people focused, because it's the little pieces that make up the big picture and if al little piece is askew then the whole picture could be in trouble.

    So Ni forms the plan in an abstract reality. Fe is the vehicle that delivers it to the outside world and allows us to communicate it. Ti analyzes it, refines it and prioritises it's implementation process.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
    Likes SearchingforPeace liked this post

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Thanks.

    I realized your experience may be different. So, that is why said, in my experience. Everyone's experiences are so varied and unique.

    Yep. We reached the same conclusions.

    I would like to touch on the notion of consensus, mainly because I see this as a new avenue to explore in this whole learning to communicate thing. I have discovered that for me, personally, it's not about consensus. It's about efficiency. For example, you've heard the old saying that people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care? In my life I've discovered that, as a general rule (and that may be because I'm from a rural community), people are more willing to implement my ideas if they realize that I value theirs. I don't mean it like a manipulation thing, but more like "I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and hear you out, seek to understand you in hopes that in return, you'll attempt to listen to me and understand me, too." It is a more efficient use of human energy for getting things accomplished. Fe brings concepts out of the abstract realm of Ni and into the physical realm of people. Fe is just the chosen mode of transportation. I think INFJs learn, over time, to gage the responses of others, build a database and predict an outcome. In a lot of ways, INFJs are very Vulcan-like when it comes to their own feelings. As we begin to understand ourselves, we start to corral our feelings and keep them in-check very much like the fictious aliens. So, our personal feelings are there. We do have internalized feelings but they are housed, compartmentalized. I am an idea person, task oriented with the focused intent on bringing abstract ideas into the concrete realm to put into motion concepts that will create something useful to humans in a tangible way. Yet, I'm also people focused, because it's the little pieces that make up the big picture and if al little piece is askew then the whole picture could be in trouble.

    So Ni forms the plan in an abstract reality. Fe is the vehicle that delivers it to the outside world and allows us to communicate it. Ti analyzes it, refines it and prioritises it's implementation process.
    I agree with everything you said. It's a great description of Fe.

    But since I don't have Fe in my top four functions, none of what you described is really a priority for me as an INFP. If I really want to be persuasive or social or people-oriented, I have enough people skills that I can break out some Fe in a pinch and use it more or less as you said. But ultimately, Fe is a low priority for me.

    Here's the big difference between your Aux-Fe and my Aux-Ne (and why the twain shall never meet):

    --Fe is a judging function. It communicates a finished, polished idea that was cooked up deep down in the INFJ's internal Ni laboratory. Fe is about being as persuasive as possible in communicating that idea.

    --By comparison, Ne is about developing ideas that *aren't* finished or polished yet. It's a perceiving, brainstorming function. It's about being provocative and eliciting responses in order to see where the thought leads. In the service of being provocative, argumentation is a good thing. To put it another way: To simply be persuasive would be the death of Ne. Ne is about bouncing ideas around and getting feedback, not being persuasive.

    So when I'm dealing with the outside world I'm mostly about Ne-based testing and riffing, with the aim of getting to know the full dimensions of a problem or situation (IOW, testing the limits). I use incoming Ne data to formulate my Fi internally. And then, when it's time to communicate my Fi findings to the outside world, that communication tends to come out through Ne channels as well: Metaphors, mentoring, head games, argumentativeness, telling stories about my great uncle Bob who was in a simular situation, shouting and taking off my shoe and pounding the table with it, etc.

    Ne is a brainstorming, back-and-forth process. INFPs test the limits of an idea by communicating it in a provocative manner, collect feedback, incorporate that feedback in Fi, then continue to develop the idea by shooting it back out at the other person in a provocative manner yet again. The ideal Ne comunication is a rolling, never-ending brainstorming session.

    I think that's why these long-running INFP/INFJ arguments are so attractive to INFPs in particular: INFJs refuse to be persuaded by anything but their own Ni, which leaves these issues unresolved and hence open for further Ne development and testing-of-limits. We're all supposed to be NFs, and yet we can't see eye-to-eye on anything; in Ne world, that lack of agreement makes these arguments a gold mine. In Ne world, the more you argue an idea, the better it gets. It's the journey that matters, not the destination.

    ETA: Naturally there are some differences in how an immature INFP will use his Ne compared to a mature INFP. An immature INFP will use his Ne to play devil's advocate, push harsh Fi judgements on others, and generally bedevil everyone in the vicinity. By comparison, a more mature INFP will use Ne to listen to the positions of others, investigate new opinions and ideas, and generally be open and exploring. Combined with a little learned Fe, mature Ne can be a quite genteel thing.

    Nonetheless, in your post you stressed your Fe need for "efficiency" in communication. And that's one thing that Ne will never be--"efficient." Ne is a perceiving function, which means it's exploratory, which is by nature inefficient. In contrast, Fe is a judging function and wants communications to be finished and polished. Fe is going to have a lot of trouble putting up with Ne "inefficiency." Meantime, while I admire the economy of Fe communications in many instances, there are other times where my Ne rebels at Fe's way of cutting communications off before they're even properly started (in my Ne opinion).

    Disclaimer: In describing Ne, I'm not saying that it's better than Fe or whatever. I'm just saying that INFPs and INFJs are inevitably going to have problems dealing with each other because Ne and Fe operate so differently.

    But I also realize that this thread is supposed to be about how *INFJs* communicate, so I want to emphasize that I'm not being disparaging about INFJs or Fe. Fe is a powerful function, and I continue to try to improve my own Fe skills as a matter of personal development.

  7. #127
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @Z Buck McFate and @fidelia both your posts are good reads and I identified. I just wanted to jump in and say that I've been guilty of leaving particular threads or not engaging in them at all simply because I lacked the mental energy to do so, but that's not always selfish. It's prioritizing. Like fidelia, my free time is precious and a large part of it goes to reinergizing. If I engage in a discussion and remain engaged it's because I'm either playing around, which i often do on here, to relax my overworked brain, or it's because I feel it is somehow helping someone, including myself, to learn.
    I just want to say I know how that feels too, and I'm glad you guys are showing some resilience and pressing on in hopes of a positive outcomes. It surprises me, fidela, that you see such disagreement as a sign of your thought process being too much at odds with that person to be worth it. It must be difficult to continue on through all that.

    I often give up on conversations here when I get irritated with a person's post and argument style. I just find myself no longer caring enough about the subject matter to even bother continuing. It's worse when, on top of all that, I get cornered by a Pi expression of perspective, and even though it seems so inaccurate to me, I struggle to find the counter-argument within myself. There's something like kryptonite in it that defeats my ability to think about the issue and discuss it clearly, and this just makes me want to walk away. I imagine there's an equivalent for you guys.

    I do make a conscious choice not to use the ignore option for posters I don't like. I don't want to censor people that disagree with me or piss me off. It can be friggin hard to deal with, but I think that it's better for me in the long run.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This whole thing about motives is interesting. It seems like motives are important to you - in yourself and seeing motives in others. You want to know what makes people tick. Also, INFJs seem slow to trust. These things are neither bad nor good. However, I do see a danger. Some of the worst communication breakdowns that I have ever witnessed are when one person wrongly assigns negative motivations to another person. It is why I have been asking about trust and what causes the INFJ to trust others and what causes it to break down. So what happens if the INFJ is wrong in their attribution of motives? What if they assign unfair or incorrect motivations to another person? How does the INFJ come to realize that they may in fact be wrong? I partly ask this question because INTJs can have this problem. Their imagination gets carried away with them and they can form unfair negative perceptions at times. They can be blind to the destructiveness they cause and tend to blame it on the other person. It can be difficult for them to realize they got it wrong. Maybe all types can do this but I think that while the imagination of the Ni dom can at times lead to brilliant insights, it can also lead to unfair conclusions more than many other personality types that base things more on direct evidence.
    Just saw the post above. Personalitypage.com has some interesting material about what goes wrong with the various personality types and how to fix such problems.

    Using the example of INFJs, Personalitypage.com says that Fe is the bridge between internal Ni and the outside world. Thus:

    --In an immature INFJ, Fe tends to be used in service to Ni: Fe is directed outward at the world and is used to shut out or keep at bay those parts of the world that conflict with Ni and its conclusions. As a result, Ni becomes increasingly isolated and goes awry.

    --In order to achieve greater maturity, a more effective use of Fe would be to direct Fe inward and use it to judge Ni and its conclusions and bring them more into correspondence with the outside world. That would bring Ni under the sway of the same "reality checks" that the rest of the world has to obey.

    Here's the link: INFJ Personal Growth

    And by the way, don't shoot the messenger and start arguing with me about it. I'm just repeating what they say at Personalitypage.com.

    Naturally, the same would apply to INTJs, with Te substituting for Fe: INTJ Personal Growth

  9. #129
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross - I was thinking some more about it what you wrote. (Funny how it helps me define what I think by having the chance to bounce it off someone else.). I think the issue of disagreement is primarily uncomfortable to me when the objective of the person disagreeing is unclear to me ( they say they are not trying to persuade, help me, inform, etc), so it just seems hostile, or when the person doesn't seem to be on the same "team" as me (there doesn't seem to be goodwill or starting from some common ground). You're an excellent example of someone who may experience the world quite differently from me, but is able to communicate those differences in a way that remains productive and welcoming. I know for a fact that I am not nearly as good at doing that for the flip side.

    One of the ideas I've been presented with here is that to more Ne and Te users, neither the person's manner of communicating, nor their "qualifications" (track record, trustedness, expertise) are nearly as important as the idea themselves. I can see pros and cons to this. Because this is one of the primary ways I would determine who I could trust or should listen to, even when I know I need to be more open, it is hard for me to know then how I would go about doing so effectively without losing my way of navigation.

  10. #130
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    INFJ Communication:
    Regarding INFJ communication, what I'm hearing is not only "this is how INFJs communicate" but "this is what we absolutely need in order to communicate". To my knowledge, here at TypoC, INFJs are the only type, as a group, to assert that there is a list of criteria that must be met in order for them to be able to communicate. Other type groups might ask for accommodations, but I haven't seen them saying that they aren't able to communicate if they aren't accommodated. Individuals might refuse to talk to other individuals for whatever reasons, but they don't claim that their reasons are representative of their whole type, or say they can't communicate at all because of those reasons.

    So, what is the community's responsibility towards a whole type as a group, since it seems that INFJs are asserting that they have special needs when it comes to communication? Does the community owe one type more than the equal opportunity that every other type has to state their views and opinions? If I have a disability, is it necessary for everyone to handicap themselves in order to accommodate me, or is it enough that the opportunity and the means are there for me to participate as fully as I'm able?

    And there's this (bolding is mine):
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    One thing about our forum that is fundamentally different than other forums is that it is centered on interaction across types. The other forums focus more heavily on facilitating interaction within types. So, INFJs interact with INFJs. INTJs interact with INTJs. That's the culture they foster, even if the forum has all different kinds of types. We're different. I see this as a positive thing. We get to see how these inter-type conflicts play out.

    I know some people don't really like conflict but we can learn from it. It's useful at times. It can be a good thing.

    Authentic Voice:
    As for natural or authentic voice, I would define that as the tone of a post, which is separate from the content of a post. I've seen individuals of other types ask that their tone be overlooked and the content of their posts addressed, but the INFJ criteria for communication seems to be indicating that the content doesn't matter as much as the tone being acceptable. Or perhaps both tone and content have to be acceptable? In that case, that's not communication, that's a script.

    INFJs leaving:
    Can anyone post a factual number of how many INFJs have left specifically because of communication issues, and what percentage that is of the membership who identify as INFJ? I'm willing to bet that the percentage is small.
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