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  1. #111
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Me too. When I first came on here, I also didn't have many options in the location I was living in for social interaction, so I tended to spend a lot more time here. It was also newer back then. Now, I think I am able to spend more moderate amounts of time on the forum and I have a lot of real life obligations that take first priority.

  2. #112
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    This caught my eye. I haven't given this a lot of thought to see if it's accurate, but I think there might be a bit of a disconnect between assigning motives to others and assigning motives to myself. For myself, I can see that I often have several motives attached to a single act--a nuanced process, like you said. On the other hand, I can tend to simplify assigning motives to other people by using that binary positive/negative, otherwise I might not be able to assign any motive at all because there are too many possibilities. The ideal would be to assign positive motive until proven otherwise, or assign no motive at all (I'm not sure if that's possible for me or not). Is it different for you?
    This whole thing about motives is interesting. It seems like motives are important to you - in yourself and seeing motives in others. You want to know what makes people tick. Also, INFJs seem slow to trust. These things are neither bad nor good. However, I do see a danger. Some of the worst communication breakdowns that I have ever witnessed are when one person wrongly assigns negative motivations to another person. It is why I have been asking about trust and what causes the INFJ to trust others and what causes it to break down. So what happens if the INFJ is wrong in their attribution of motives? What if they assign unfair or incorrect motivations to another person? How does the INFJ come to realize that they may in fact be wrong? I partly ask this question because INTJs can have this problem. Their imagination gets carried away with them and they can form unfair negative perceptions at times. They can be blind to the destructiveness they cause and tend to blame it on the other person. It can be difficult for them to realize they got it wrong. Maybe all types can do this but I think that while the imagination of the Ni dom can at times lead to brilliant insights, it can also lead to unfair conclusions more than many other personality types that base things more on direct evidence.

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  3. #113
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I agree that it is important for people to be themselves. As a general statement from all the years of foruming, I do think that each person (especially introverts?) needs a place to be themselves, and so people of many different types come here hoping that they can speak the way the really would like to irl, but are hampered by social norms and requirements. The problem is that any group of people is similar in producing conflict and stifling, so realistically there is no INTP, no INFP, INFJ, INTJ, etc who is going to be able to speak with their truest voice without pushback from others just exactly as it happens irl. Perhaps this place can accommodate a little more, but we all get disappointed if we have an inner ideal of what to expect from an online forum. People are going to judge unfairly, take things wrong, etc.

    One simple thing that can help is to include some positive statements about a type that you need to say negative things about. Sometimes these discussions get so focused on the negative that they become quite distorted from the overall truth. Saying positive things isn't "a circle jerk" when it is just filling out the whole picture. Focusing only on the positive or only on the negative are both distorted views of reality.
    Yeah, having an inner ideal of what to expect might cause disappointments and problems.

    Besides balancing positive and negative, can you think of other ways that different types might teach each other how to hear their authentic voices? I had thought of having some sort of thread of the month, where the thread is devoted to one type posting in their voice, so say INTJ as an example. Other types would try to post in that thread using what they think of as an INTJ voice and then the INTJs would critique how well they did. That way, other types could see any differences in how the INTJ voice sounds to them and how it actually is. I have no idea if it will work the way I picture it, though, or if people would even be interested in doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    During my more inactive periods it has always been that pressing real world interactions, commitments, etc., take predcidence at times. Maybe it's the same for some of the others.
    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Me too. When I first came on here, I also didn't have many options in the location I was living in for social interaction, so I tended to spend a lot more time here. It was also newer back then. Now, I think I am able to spend more moderate amounts of time on the forum and I have a lot of real life obligations that take first priority.
    Yay for real life!

    Just goes to show that when someone disappears from the forum, I shouldn't assume the worst.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    This whole thing about motives is interesting. It seems like motives are important to you - in yourself and seeing motives in others. You want to know what makes people tick. Also, INFJs seem slow to trust. These things are neither bad nor good. However, I do see a danger. Some of the worst communication breakdowns that I have ever witnessed are when one person wrongly assigns negative motivations to another person. It is why I have been asking about trust and what causes the INFJ to trust others and what causes it to break down. So what happens if the INFJ is wrong in their attribution of motives? What if they assign unfair or incorrect motivations to another person? How does the INFJ come to realize that they may in fact be wrong? I partly ask this question because INTJs can have this problem. Their imagination gets carried away with them and they can form unfair negative perceptions at times. They can be blind to the destructiveness they cause and tend to blame it on the other person. It can be difficult for them to realize they got it wrong. Maybe all types can do this but I think that while the imagination of the Ni dom can at times lead to brilliant insights, it can also lead to unfair conclusions more than many other personality types that base things more on direct evidence.
    I wish I had an answer for the bolded. I think that the INFJ needs to take in accurate Se data to counter their inaccurate conclusions, but how to get them to do that and not reframe it to suit Ni's worldview--
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  4. #114
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    @highlander
    The question of certitude I think comes down to a combination of ego/identity and fear. The only time I feel any degree of certitude about someone's motives is if it is fear motivated in a form of self-protection. In that case I may not even be theoretically certain, but on a pragmatic level I am because it is the safest route.

    I think there is a way my Ni has become less focused than many INFJs because of being so heavily inundated with Ti. The only logical way of dealing with that intuitive inner world is to keep it nebulous and defined by it uncertainty. I do know that many INFJs can have high levels of certitude. I was just watching some videos about conspiracy theorist David Icke and I think he is an INFJ with certitude (also fear driven and ego/identity invested).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Yeah, having an inner ideal of what to expect might cause disappointments and problems.

    Besides balancing positive and negative, can you think of other ways that different types might teach each other how to hear their authentic voices? I had thought of having some sort of thread of the month, where the thread is devoted to one type posting in their voice, so say INTJ as an example. Other types would try to post in that thread using what they think of as an INTJ voice and then the INTJs would critique how well they did. That way, other types could see any differences in how the INTJ voice sounds to them and how it actually is. I have no idea if it will work the way I picture it, though, or if people would even be interested in doing it.
    That is a cool idea and certainly worth a try.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Well, here goes something...a theory, I guess.

    I believe that I subconsciously collect a type of internal "data" on people. This is collected over a period of time, having observed the person in a mired of circumstances and situations. Of course, this takes time and detailed observations of human interactions and responses. Each new interaction with that person adds to the internal database, confirming or ruling out a previously held hypothesis about that person. If I jump to a conclusion prematurely, I may misjudge a person or read them incorrectly. In this event, the only thing to do is say, "I was wrong," sometimes it has to be said to the person. Sometimes, it is just something that I'm aware of so I alter the way I interact with that person and adjust accordingly. To use an analogy, it's kind of like the BORG in a way. I mean each new interaction with a person adds to the collective of prior knowledge and understanding. However, if the prior knowledge and understanding is flawed or incomplete, then I must adapt. It's all about adapting, I think, constantly adapting, recalibrating, seeking a more complete picture, a better understanding. In this sense, I am forever inquisitive, forever collecting, processing, assimilating and adjusting my viewpoint. If a person consistently shows a type of behavior that betrays my trust, devalues me, or disregards a value that I hold in high esteem, such as the humane treatment of others, then I will know to be wary of that person and keep my distance. However, if I have been wrong about a person and I uncover evidence to prove that I was wrong, I will admit my wrong, apologize, and get on with my life. What else is there to do?
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  6. #116
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    I handled my first several posts in this thread badly.

    Ultimately, I was going after expressing a cause/effect relationship in regards to INFJ communication- that we do tend to leave where there isn’t enough harmony or the social temperature doesn’t feel fair, and we tend to not say anything because we don’t see it as “there isn’t enough goodwill here” so much as it seems like we are noticing “there isn’t as much goodwill here as I need.” And it will feel like it's a better idea to back away and seek different interaction where people have the same needs rather than trying to impose our needs on people who don’t understand them- it feels too selfish to say anything (this forum has taught me that making this decision unilaterally and not saying anything can actually be the more selfish thing to do…..but the fact that is a struggle for many of us is testimony to the point I’m trying to make here). This is one way in which I am starting to see how Fi is more about the individual. Instead of thinking, “Why doesn’t this connection/interaction work well?”- I think for INFJs, because that part of the assessment is so internal and private, we don’t have ready access to the mechanism that evaluates such things and it’s so insanely difficult to explain our position that it doesn’t even occur to us to try. The immediate question for us, instead, is “Can I go along with this (whatever dynamic is already in place) or can’t I?” We have to feel REALLY invested in the other party involved for it to even occur to us to go beyond that. And even then we usually don’t put as many cards on the table as we probably should, because putting out any cards at all feels too ‘selfish’ (even though ultimately it's selfish not to).

    That INFJs have stayed out of conversations and/or left the forum because of this- the social temperature being exactly too uncomfortable*- that’s not just an assumption on my end. Yes, real life takes precedence- as it should- and posting often happens in spurts here and there when there’s free time, in varying degrees for different members. I’m not saying the social temperature of this place is always the reason INFJs don’t stay. But I am saying it’s probably more an influence than most other people here realize. I know this from many comments-in-passing with other INFJs over the past several years, where we vent to each other.

    *And yes, going outside one’s comfort zone is important, but where I’m being preached at about how I should step outside my comfort zone by someone who doesn’t seem capable of handling much discomfort themselves…..THAT is an example of what I mean by the social temperature feeling “unfair.”

    And regarding “natural voice”: I used my “natural voice” in the beginning of this thread, and I’d say that was a mistake. Because it was ineffective- I did not get my point across AND gave some inadvertent impression that took on a life of its own. Using a “natural voice” without paying attention to who your intended audience is will necessarily have “natural consequences"- we don’t get to tell people what those consequences “should” be. Of course it’s available to try, but it’s essentially dictating how that other person ‘should’ receive our “natural voice” and that is denying them a “natural voice” of their own. I personally think it’s more effective communication-wise to simply notice what the consequence is (instead of focusing on what it ‘should’ be, and/or that there ‘shouldn’t’ be one) and modify the “natural voice” as needed to get the message across as it was intended. Sometimes it's not worth the effort, and that's okay too- but imo there's something fruitless about deciding we shouldn't have to alter our own "natural voice" in order to be heard by someone who is different from us.

    So yes, I handled my initial interaction here badly- I was reacting more to past experience than immediate experience, and cut loose with my “natural voice” instead of considering my audience and what message I specifically wanted to get across. Ultimately though, my point (hidden under my ornery “natural voice”) was to propose a shift towards something more in the “celebrating differences” direction in regards to INFJ threads. I very much agree with this sentiment:

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    One simple thing that can help is to include some positive statements about a type that you need to say negative things about. Sometimes these discussions get so focused on the negative that they become quite distorted from the overall truth. Saying positive things isn't "a circle jerk" when it is just filling out the whole picture. Focusing only on the positive or only on the negative are both distorted views of reality.
    A lack of this can and has driven INFJs out of conversations and/or the forum, and to generally feeling less positive attachment to this place. It's not even that I'm saying people 'should' care or consider it worth the effort- I'm trying to point out the consequence. Because generally INFJs see themselves (and being "incompatible") as the reason they are backing away- and if only because people are forever bitching about how we start to feel less invested/attached without ever saying why- I don't think INFJs speak out about how much of a need this is as we should?
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  7. #117
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    When I look at greenfairy's comments with regards to Fi and FP... they were so insignificant... benign. Practically contentless and framed with "I think" and "might"... It was clear, at least to me, that she wasn't making definitive type related statements but merely using "possible differences" as a way to define her own communication style.

    It seems unfathomable in my mind that I would feel the need to enter a thread on INFJ communication and make corrections if there wasn't some larger issue at hand.

    Once I factor history into the equation... it's just downright petty and disrespectful in my mind.

  8. #118
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I handled my first several posts in this thread badly.

    Ultimately, I was going after expressing a cause/effect relationship in regards to INFJ communication- that we do tend to leave where there isn’t enough harmony or the social temperature doesn’t feel fair, and we tend to not say anything because we don’t see it as “there isn’t enough goodwill here” so much as it seems like we are noticing “there isn’t as much goodwill here as I need.” And it will feel like it's 'ca better idea to back away and join a different interaction where others have the same needs rather than trying to impose our needs on people who don’t understand them- it feels too selfish to say anything (this forum has taught me that making this decision unilaterally and not saying anything can actually be the more selfish thing to do…..but the fact that is a struggle for many of us is testimony to the point I’m trying to make here). This is one way in which I am starting to see how Fi is more about the individual. Instead of thinking, “Why doesn’t this connection/interaction work well?”- I think for INFJs, because that part of the assessment is so internal and private, we don’t have ready access to the mechanism that evaluates such things and it’s so insanely difficult to explain our position that it doesn’t even occur to us to try. The immediate question for us, instead, is “Can I go along with this (whatever dynamic is already in place) or can’t I?” We have to feel REALLY invested in the other party involved for it to even occur to us to go beyond that. And even then we usually don’t put as many cards on the table as we probably should, because putting out any cards at all feels too ‘selfish’ (even though ultimately it's selfish not to).

    That INFJs have stayed out of conversations and/or left the forum because of this- the social temperature being exactly too uncomfortable*- that’s not just an assumption on my end. Yes, real life takes precedence- as it should- and posting often happens in spurts here and there when there’s free time, in varying degrees for different members. I’m not saying the social temperature of this place is always the reason INFJs don’t stay. But I am saying it’s probably more an influence than most other people here realize. I know this from many comments-in-passing with other INFJs over the past several years, where we vent to each other.

    *And yes, going outside one’s comfort zone is important, but where I’m being preached at about how I should step outside my comfort zone by someone who doesn’t seem capable of handling much discomfort themselves…..THAT is an example of what I mean by the social temperature feeling “unfair.”

    And regarding “natural voice”: I used my “natural voice” in the beginning of this thread, and I’d say that was a mistake. Because it was ineffective- I did not get my point across AND gave some inadvertent impression that took on a life of its own. Using a “natural voice” without paying attention to who your intended audience is will necessarily have “natural consequences"- we don’t get to tell people what those consequences “should” be. Of course it’s available to try, but it’s essentially dictating how that other person ‘should’ receive our “natural voice” and that is denying them a “natural voice” of their own. I personally think it’s more effective communication-wise to simply notice what the consequence is (instead of focusing on what it ‘should’ be, and/or that there ‘shouldn’t’ be one) and modify the “natural voice” as needed to get the message across as it was intended. Sometimes it's not worth the effort, and that's okay too- but imo there's something fruitless about deciding we shouldn't have to alter our own "natural voice" in order to be heard by someone who is different from us.

    So yes, I handled my initial interaction here badly- I was reacting more to past experience than immediate experience, and cut loose with my “natural voice” instead of considering my audience and what message I specifically wanted to get across. Ultimately though, my point (hidden under my ornery “natural voice”) was to propose a shift towards something more in the “celebrating differences” direction in regards to INFJ threads. I very much agree with this sentiment:



    A lack of this can and has driven INFJs out of conversations and/or the forum, and to generally feeling less positive attachment to this place. It's not even that I'm saying people 'should' care or consider it worth the effort- I'm trying to point out the consequence. Because generally INFJs see themselves (and being "incompatible") as the reason they are backing away- and if only because people are forever bitching about how we start to feel less invested/attached without ever saying why- I don't think INFJs speak out about how much of a need this is as we should?
    Very much agree with this post. I definitely have a tendency to just back out of a thread, organization, activity etc if I feel that my wants and wishes are too much at odds with the other people's. It does indeed feel like I can't ask everyone to change for me, or that if bringing it up would be disruptive without actually producing any positive change or understanding, it is not worth it. I have to be pretty invested in someone or something to fight about it without being reasonably assured of the outcome and that it will be worth it. I am beginning to see that that is sometimes unfair to other people, but I still have a hard time determining what merits discussion and what is just my own different way of viewing the world and is going to be selfish to ask others to make adjustments for or even state my opinion about.

    I do think that as much as it is comfortable to use one's natural voice, if the other person is really going to hear the message and hear it in the way that it is intended, it requires at least attempting to present it in a way that is palatable to the audience. I do struggle with how much of a filter should be used though, especially in a forum like this and I don't really think I've found that balance. I think there is some merit in knowing what other type's hot buttons are and also in observing their authentic way of communicating, but I have to balance that off with how much unproductive or emotionally disruptive/energy sucking exchanges that induces.

    At least for me, if I have very little leisure time anyway, I would like the majority of it to be re-energizing, informative and positive. It's not that I want anyone to have to make adjustments for me and change how things currently are here, but I'm not sure if I'm willing to open up big cans of worms all the time either and deal with the fallout. At the same time, it can become lonely and restrictive to not be able to share what you really think without it being misunderstood. Especially because many people on the forum enter the forum at points of crisis in their lives, there is often additional unseen baggage that is hard for either party to step around, but which can result in volitility. I hate emotional surprises, and particularly if I am not close enough for it to be worth the emotional energy necessary, yet invested enough that I want to be part of a community, it is easier for me to just find other ways to meet my need for a variety of online social encounters, or to maintain the friendships I've made here outside of the forum. I don't know if that is just a part of the natural evolution of my time here, or if there is a way for that to be addressed in a general sense. As a result of several little kerfuffles, I determined awhile ago not to bother starting threads here anymore. At the same time, that also takes away some of the reason to keep checking back. Same with many of the INFJ threads which have ended up in unproductive conflict - if we've already had that same discussion somewhere else with the same people, is it worth taking a risk that it will go differently this time? Not really to me. Some of the people that I used to feel more in common with have left the forum, or in their evolution, they have become a lot more forceful about subjects that I know we won't agree on politically/socially/religiously, etc.

    I guess the point I am making is just that even when it is not a matter of feeling forced out, over time a lack of alignment in vision/values/communication tends to make me feel less invested in a relationship or organization, and I think that that reaction isn't completely an anomaly amongst INFJs.

  9. #119
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    that video is so weird, it seemed like the perfect description of an ENFP (....or maybe i'm an INFJ in denial ***goes into hidding***)

  10. #120
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate and @fidelia both your posts are good reads and I identified. I just wanted to jump in and say that I've been guilty of leaving particular threads or not engaging in them at all simply because I lacked the mental energy to do so, but that's not always selfish. It's prioritizing. Like fidelia, my free time is precious and a large part of it goes to reinergizing. If I engage in a discussion and remain engaged it's because I'm either playing around, which i often do on here, to relax my overworked brain, or it's because I feel it is somehow helping someone, including myself, to learn.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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