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  1. #101
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think this is the right way to look at it. As much as it might not seem l like it, of all people, us Ni-doms realize just how much we don't know. We seek depth of understanding and insight however. It's just how we're built. Yes, we have a great deal of confidence in our perceptions, but they are just that - perceptions. Those perceptions can be changed with new evidence. Can you imagine living life like this - to have this constant quest for evolving your insights about things and realize that there is no possible way you can ever come close to knowing enough? That's what it is like.
    Here's my rambling explanation of how sometimes those perceptions, in an INFJ, might not be changed with new evidence:

    Ni--how I perceive the world, is very subjective and detached from reality. So how do I get accurate, reality-based perceptions? Through Se, my inferior. And by nature, the extroverted functions are in the moment--reality as it is in that moment--fleeting--constantly having to be rechecked--mentally exhausting for me. So, I rely on Ni. But if my internal, collected perceptions aren't accurate, and I'm not checking Se to confirm because it's mentally taxing, and I think I know everything I need to know anyway, then I'm screwed. All I have to base my decisions/judgements on boils down to imaginary, subjective data.

    
On another track: Ni-Fe probably makes its decisions using the more primitive limbic system (gut-feelings, abstract decision making). Extraverted functions are more immediate. The urge to make an immediate, forceful, gut decision via Fe is strong. It can be worked around by engaging Ti, but Ti isn't so reality-based--even though it's more rational than Fe, it's also more subjective, so it's imaginary in some ways. And so one can end up with the possibility of an Ni-Ti loop, which feels like it's rational, but it might not be. It can be difficult to bypass a limbic system judgment when it's wanting to be immediate/extraverted.

    
So, it may not be easy to have new evidence accepted by Ni because:
    1) Ni perception takes a long time to build. Lots of mental energy. Efficiency becomes a priority. Rebuilding is not efficient. Accepting new evidence necessitates rebuilding.

    2) All reality-based new data has to come in through the inferior, weak, extraverted perceiving function--Se. Again, lots of mental energy required.

    3) Ti workarounds might seem rational, but since Ti is an introverted function--subjective and in the tertiary position--it's less reality-based and can easily find "reasons" to deflect and dismiss new evidence as not being "true". It's subjectively judging subjective accumulated data, not allowing new evidence to be considered.

    Sometimes, I think this forum is like a laboratory. People get upset about things and then actually talk about why they are upset because of the type of forum it is. We know what type they are so we get a chance to see how the interaction works. It's unfortunate that some INFJs feel driven away by certain types of interaction. I also feel badly that you seem upset.
    I disagree with the bolded being the norm, especially when it comes to F-types, and most especially when it comes down to INFP and INFJ issues. F-types seem to take arguments more personally, and the miscommunication that happens between INFPs and INFJs adds to that.

    One thing about our forum that is fundamentally different than other forums is that it is centered on interaction across types. The other forums focus more heavily on facilitating interaction within types. So, INFJs interact with INFJs. INTJs interact with INTJs. That's the culture they foster, even if the forum has all different kinds of types. We're different. I see this as a positive thing. We get to see how these inter-type conflicts play out.

    I know some people don't really like conflict but we can learn from it. It's useful at times. It can be a good thing.
    It is a positive thing, overall.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The question then is - how is this gap bridged with an INFJ? People can be very inconsistent, and this seems less tolerated when external with an INFJ, and less tolerated with an FP when internal. How much internal consistency will convince an INFJ that a person is, well, trustworthy? The lack of predictability in FPs seems to leave them uneasy. As an INFP, it leaves me uneasy to be boxed it so quickly so I can be summed up easily.
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Taking it a bit broader - question to the INFJs - what is it exactly that results in the INFJ extending that trust and opening up? I don't know that it has anything to do with internal consistency but it seems like it is certainly something. Time? Behaviors over time? Is there some kind of inflection point that occurs? What builds up that trust over time and what tears it down?
    I hear a different question from OrangeAppled than I hear from highlander. I hear her asking what one has to do in order to get an INFJ to trust them? What criteria need to be met?

    What I hear highlander asking is similar--what criteria need to be met, but not only in order to get the INFJ to trust you, but to get the INFJ to be vulnerable and open up to being trusting.

    My answer to OrangeAppled's question is that I think the criteria the INFJ needs met in order to trust are pretty much the same criteria that anyone would want met. Honest, genuine communication, some sort of consistency, shared values, etc.

    My answer to highlander's question is that I think the degree to which I'm open to being trusting is determined by how how confident and competent I feel about my own abilities to handle whatever people might throw at me. The more competent I feel, the more open and vulnerable I'm willing to be whether I trust the other person or not.

    And I think this all ties back in to my weak Se. Weak Se is why I feel the need to plan ahead of time, because I'm not good at perceiving concrete real world data on the fly. I don't naturally feel competent to handle that sort of data on the fly. I have to work at it.

    So, my overall answer to how do you get an INFJ to trust you is that it will all depend on the INFJ. For the most part, it will probably be a difficult endeavor.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #102
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I think for me at least, if I can understand what someone's emotional landscape looks like, described a bit detachedly, like a traveller writing back an account of what they see to someone who has never been there, then it helps me to be more open to hearing more and even to bending further out of my usual way of doing things. The person has put effort into helping me with the why part, and in turn, I tend to response with more interest in the what because it then has significance for me.

    It's like when I was teaching Grade 1, we ended up talking about a bunch of different famous landmarks in the world, our country, our province, our community and our school and people in those places as well, as a way of orienting them to the world around them.

    Several parents were amazed at some of the things their kids knew then when they happened to see a snip of the news, or when they went on holidays. The reason why the kids were interested though was because they had some background information that made more details relevant and useful to them and made them interested in learning more when they heard about something that already had some personal significance for them.

    For me at least, that's how I feel when I am given some facts to work with. When strong Fimotion is mixed in with the description of the landscape though, it makes me distrust the veracity or relevance of the facts. In my Ni-Fe-Ti mind, it's like having a book of research that has some footnotes and citations, but also a heavy dose of subjective opinions stated in informal language with the person's assurances that they are based on something even more substantive, but that the reader doesn't have access to that information.

    I would like to hear more about how Fi is used as a defence. It's not that I doubt that, but I had never really thought of it in that sense and I'm not sure that I understand it accurately.

  3. #103
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Thanks for your whole post. You speak very well and explain things clearly - even though it's more like confirmation rather than new stuff, it is both very helpful and so sad to be reminded that Fe will always see Fi in this type of way.

    Well, here's the thing about motive that is difficult. For almost any action a person takes you could assign them a directional motive of binary choice, either positive or negative. Here's a quick example: in an older thread I did a Ti-style analysis of the situation at hand (changed focus and looked at T-data and emulated that Ji space.) So, I do that trying to be helpful, positive intent, again leaving my cognitive preference to reach out, and I'm accused of bad intent. Why? My intent was determined to be deceptive, trying to get closer via pretending to be Ti in order to be some sort of emo-vampire. Every good thing can be flipped over and viewed from the opposite perspective and then evidence gathered to prove that unreality.

    So, if anything I do can be interpreted first by choice through a good intent / bad intent filter, and INFJs can be pretty stolid about holding onto what they believe to be that direction of your motive, what can be done about that?

    And what is the proper reaction when Fe is trying to shut you up? Mine is to say, I won't shut up! Deal with that. So, in your opinion, how do you bypass Je trying to do that stuff?
    What about Fe is saddening? I ask because I honestly do not know nor do I see what would be so sad about it, and I am curious to what it is. I don't see any function as good/bad nor better/worse than any others. The only differences I see are ones that I mesh well with and ones that I don't. While I generally don't mesh well with Fi, I can and do. My best friend is INFP actually, and we've been friends since 3rd grade.

    The way you're looking at motives isn't how I or others generally use it; it's not binary at all. That's not surprising it would be seen as that way if one does not use or consider them to be a factor. The thing is, it's a very nuanced process. All circumstances surrounding them are taken into consideration. If you try and emulate considering motives, it might not work out right. You shouldn't have to though. As I said before the way you fundementally operate is totally valid and no one should condemn you for being that. You shouldn't be expected to change your fundementals. What we do instead, is take what we have, and refine it. You don't need to use intent, but instead understand that others will, and that it can get you to the same point that you'll get to in another manner. Even if we don't understand it. What ECJJ said here explains this perfectly:

    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I see this whole thing as being similar to learning that your SO's love language is different from yours. You can't see how hard they're working to please you, and the reverse is true as well. But you can adapt to one another, as long as you learn each other's languages, accept the validity of their way of doing things, and let go of your resentment.
    What needs to be done us understanding that the other is working under a different subset of skills, even if we can't see it. A lot of it is "I don't get this, but I accept this". I do this a lot, a lot more than I want to actually. This goes back to you stating that you are constantly having to adapt to others and never get to let your hair down and just put yourself first for once. Other types have their own issues over restraint. For example: I am always, constantly, adapting myself to the environment around me. I get a read of who's around, what their values are as well as social order, etc. and change who I appear to be. This is something INFP's really loathe to do. INFJ's also do what I do to a lesser extent (though they often opt to stay quieter about it). This can be really draining after long periods of time. I can get very resentful if I can't get away from being a slave to social order that I don't agree with. It's similar to what INFP's often do: accomidate to an individual. INFJ's will accomidate to a group. In irony it's the same thing, but neither really experiences the others method of restraint. It's a different language.

    If you feel Fe is trying to silence you, check to see if that's what's going on. It may not be. It could just be seeking a point, end, or conclusion as it doesn't like to go round and round for long. Second, it's a really bad idea to push back and say "I won't shut up", because that will just piss Fe off more. In particular if they are trying to settle something. It gets felt as a "you hurt me, so I will hurt you in vengence" and as I said before Fe is allergic to that kind of action. What can help is if you really feel the need to keep going, then say why you have to. The INFJ should appreciate this because that little bit of external statment (what you're doing is stating your intent, which should be easy!) helps a ton. If they don't see it or read into it, then the fault would lie on them, not you.

    Hopefully that helps some!
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  4. #104
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    Not leave out your emotions entirely, but tone them down, and not use them as a weapon. If the goal is to make the INFJ understand you, then lashing out with 500x more Fi is definitely not going to do the job. As for what you WOULD want to do, others have explained it much better in this thread than I could ever hope to.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I am enjoying reading about INFJ processing. It is fascinating.

    It is true that learning not to use Fi as a weapon is huge in an FJ-FP relationship. It is hard because it is our natural defense. But learning to "give up", break it open and describe the landscape as a 3rd party observer is the best strategy I have found. It also helps the FJ to see your feelings outside the context of motive. It can feel like stifling ourselves, though, which is particularly hard for us because we feel like the world already asks us to stifle so much of our natural communication in everyday relations. However, I think it is important to understand the FJ still being willing to continue discoursing despite conflict as an acquiescence, them leaving their place of comfort. It requires more energy on their part to persist than it does on ours. And once there is trust on both ends, then there can be real listening and appreciation and freedom of understanding on both ends. It's like a Chinese finger trap... you have to give more up front than you feel like you should have to, but it's worth it in the end.
    Personally, I would rather hear people on this forum use their natural voices, whether that grates on me or not, because how else can I learn to hear them properly? Some adaptation might be necessary in the beginning, but for the most part, I would rather not have us all follow Fe-protocol. I get enough of that out in the real world.

    And, for the record, @PeaceBaby's real voice doesn't bother me. I don't always know how to interpret it yet, but that's the whole point of being on this forum as far as I'm concerned.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #105
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Personally, I would rather hear people on this forum use their natural voices, whether that grates on me or not, because how else can I learn to hear them properly? Some adaptation might be necessary in the beginning, but for the most part, I would rather not have us all follow Fe-protocol. I get enough of that out in the real world.

    And, for the record, @PeaceBaby's real voice doesn't bother me. I don't always know how to interpret it yet, but that's the whole point of being on this forum as far as I'm concerned.
    I did not mean to say that FPs should never use their natural voices and am glad you are so open!

    My experience is that, during conflict, the FP impulse is typically to push Fi, protecting and defending the self while attempting to show genuine feeling. This can be misread on a number of levels, particularly as an attack, which is reasonable, because clumsy Te is often engaged. What has happened to me in the past is that the intensity of immediate raw emotion is unpleasantly overwhelming for the FJ, and it can devolve into a cycle of either party feeling attacked and Ti attempting to correct regimenting Te and Fi attempting to correct moderating Fe. It is easier, IME, to tone down and drop guard rather than tone up and defend. Hard lesson for a 6.

    But, that is just my experience from my FJ (and TP, actually) family and friends. Perhaps it is skewed towards the quirks of my small population set.

    I totally agree about a little adaptation at the beginning - as well as during the rocky points that are inevitable in long-term friendships and relationships - and think that this is one way FPs can work towards cooperation rather than conflict with INFJs.

  6. #106
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's unfortunate that some INFJs feel driven away by certain types of interaction.
    The analytics you showed the Forum Improvement Committee had INFJs as one of the top three types on the forum (percentage-wise), if I remember correctly. You'd never guess it from how few actually participate. There are probably all sorts of reasons why so few participate, though I would guess that some of those reasons have to do with our own reluctance to speak up and our avoidance of conflict. I don't see those as good enough reasons to blame any other type, or their specific way of interacting, for INFJ non-participation. The real world isn't going to coddle us, why should this forum?

    Interactions should be reasonably free of hostility, which is different than conflict, and I think that measures are in place to that end and that those measures have been working well.

    People of all types come and go from this forum for various reasons. It is unfortunate that some choose to leave because they feel driven away by certain interactions. To me, the most telling part of that last sentence is the word "feel". No one is being driven away, they just feel driven away--their own perception of the interaction, not the interaction itself. Someone else might relish the same interaction.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  7. #107
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think for me at least, if I can understand what someone's emotional landscape looks like, described a bit detachedly, like a traveller writing back an account of what they see to someone who has never been there, then it helps me to be more open to hearing more and even to bending further out of my usual way of doing things. The person has put effort into helping me with the why part, and in turn, I tend to response with more interest in the what because it then has significance for me. [...]

    For me at least, that's how I feel when I am given some facts to work with. When strong Fimotion is mixed in with the description of the landscape though, it makes me distrust the veracity or relevance of the facts. In my Ni-Fe-Ti mind, it's like having a book of research that has some footnotes and citations, but also a heavy dose of subjective opinions stated in informal language with the person's assurances that they are based on something even more substantive, but that the reader doesn't have access to that information.

    I would like to hear more about how Fi is used as a defence. It's not that I doubt that, but I had never really thought of it in that sense and I'm not sure that I understand it accurately.
    Fidelia, thank you so much for voicing this. I love the way you allude to the travel information. It is an excellent illustration. What you have said about "Fimotion" - lol! - is so similar to what I have heard from other FJs as well, that the heavy subjectiveness of Fimotion can overwhelm the veracity of the information enclosed. It is fascinating because, from the FP viewpoint, the "facts" remain the same regardless of the emotion involved, and the emotion is an extractable layer of useful information.

    As for Fi as a defense - I would be happy to expound on it, and maybe PB and OA can help. Would you INFJs prefer if I started a separate thread?

  8. #108
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    The way you're looking at motives isn't how I or others generally use it; it's not binary at all. That's not surprising it would be seen as that way if one does not use or consider them to be a factor. The thing is, it's a very nuanced process. All circumstances surrounding them are taken into consideration.
    This caught my eye. I haven't given this a lot of thought to see if it's accurate, but I think there might be a bit of a disconnect between assigning motives to others and assigning motives to myself. For myself, I can see that I often have several motives attached to a single act--a nuanced process, like you said. On the other hand, I can tend to simplify assigning motives to other people by using that binary positive/negative, otherwise I might not be able to assign any motive at all because there are too many possibilities. The ideal would be to assign positive motive until proven otherwise, or assign no motive at all (I'm not sure if that's possible for me or not). Is it different for you?
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #109
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Personally, I would rather hear people on this forum use their natural voices, whether that grates on me or not, because how else can I learn to hear them properly? Some adaptation might be necessary in the beginning, but for the most part, I would rather not have us all follow Fe-protocol. I get enough of that out in the real world.

    And, for the record, @PeaceBaby's real voice doesn't bother me. I don't always know how to interpret it yet, but that's the whole point of being on this forum as far as I'm concerned.
    I agree that it is important for people to be themselves. As a general statement from all the years of foruming, I do think that each person (especially introverts?) needs a place to be themselves, and so people of many different types come here hoping that they can speak the way the really would like to irl, but are hampered by social norms and requirements. The problem is that any group of people is similar in producing conflict and stifling, so realistically there is no INTP, no INFP, INFJ, INTJ, etc who is going to be able to speak with their truest voice without pushback from others just exactly as it happens irl. Perhaps this place can accommodate a little more, but we all get disappointed if we have an inner ideal of what to expect from an online forum. People are going to judge unfairly, take things wrong, etc.

    One simple thing that can help is to include some positive statements about a type that you need to say negative things about. Sometimes these discussions get so focused on the negative that they become quite distorted from the overall truth. Saying positive things isn't "a circle jerk" when it is just filling out the whole picture. Focusing only on the positive or only on the negative are both distorted views of reality.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #110
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    The analytics you showed the Forum Improvement Committee had INFJs as one of the top three types on the forum (percentage-wise), if I remember correctly. You'd never guess it from how few actually participate. There are probably all sorts of reasons why so few participate, though I would guess that some of those reasons have to do with our own reluctance to speak up and our avoidance of conflict. I don't see those as good enough reasons to blame any other type, or their specific way of interacting, for INFJ non-participation. The real world isn't going to coddle us, why should this forum?

    Interactions should be reasonably free of hostility, which is different than conflict, and I think that measures are in place to that end and that those measures have been working well.

    People of all types come and go from this forum for various reasons. It is unfortunate that some choose to leave because they feel driven away by certain interactions. To me, the most telling part of that last sentence is the word "feel". No one is being driven away, they just feel driven away--their own perception of the interaction, not the interaction itself. Someone else might relish the same interaction.

    During my more inactive periods it has always been that pressing real world interactions, commitments, etc., take predcidence at times. Maybe it's the same for some of the others.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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