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  1. #91
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That's a good way of explaining it. I think the aux Fe + tert Ti causes some similarities in the way they interact with others. This being fueled by a powerful internal perception process (Si vs Ni), makes them seem rather alike in many ways on the outside. Of course what is going on inside is vastly different because of Ni and Si. In summary, I think INFJs and ISFJs can look similar on the outside in many ways even if they are very different internally.
    Absolutely. Unless you get to know an INFJ you may think you're dealing with an ISFJ. We sometimes look like ISFJs on the surface.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #92
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Hard, of course I won't kill you. I appreciate you, your whole post and your insight to realize how invalidating it is to Fe-shut-people up. The extroverted judging function does feel it is in the right! But here's the difference, you and I could battle it out, I would take you on and we could go toe-to-toe (although I am at a natural disadvantage). But if it was important enough to us both, we would sort it out! From your vantage point, why can't it get sorted out in INFP-INFJ-land?

    (And as an aside, how Fi sounds to you just makes me want to cry lol. First, because I think I expressed myself sincerely and eloquently, and second, because "me, me, me" is not the locus of my life. Being in second, third, fourth place is very familiar in caring for my family and friends and giving to other concerns. So, to articulate that out loud, putting me "first" is so huge to me, to speak to my individuality is such a big deal, for it to be called a lack of tact is pretty horrible to read actually.)

    Well, here's how I look at this. Everyone has a variety of motives for expression at any given time. It's not that I don't see them, but I don't place much faith in motives, because I see a whole bunch that just have higher and lower probabilities and some that are in conflict or alignment with each other. (eta: this could be partly a social-dominant thing, I'm not sure all INFPs would agree with seeing that stuff.) To me, it's not necessary to hard-boil it to one because there's a bunch of possibilities, so I orient myself to a certain action both taking them into account and regardless of their existence. I place more faith in the internal read I guess. Which leads me to this:

    I do see your point and I think you've likely hit this straight, and I myself have freely admitted I can sound holier-than-thou. But here's the rub: how do you show value when what value you have is internal and kind of hidden? I tried opening all that up, showing the inside (which isn't that pretty really at times) and it didn't help? I can just choose to live my life as an expression of my values and remain silent. (Actions speak louder than words and all.) But we're here on the forum and all we have is words. So how do I even build a tower when those blocks are invisible to the other party? I have no interest in knocking down INFJ blocks either, but I see some of the issues in what they are building and I can't help but point them out. Don't people want to know? I sure want to know when I'm building something inefficiently, even if having it pointed out smarts.

    So if you can help me cut to the chase, throw out these stumbling blocks when dealing with INFJs, I'd appreciate it. And I've tried just doing Fe speak, it doesn't work because I can't keep it up forever, the Fi pokes out.
    From what I have observed two introverts in an argument of some sort persists for much longer than it would with a I/E paring, and even longer than a E/E paring. This might sound sorta rude, but extroverts generally are better communicators, are faster at it, and hold back less. Because of INFP's need for privacy and guarding, and the INFJ's need for tact and careful wording, there ends up being a lot left unsaid, and when it is said it is said at the wrong moments. It's sort of like a communication breakdown. While INFJ's have a "let's get to the point" mentality, they're easily distracted. INFP's don't often need a point of sorts (discussion is enough). It can just keep going endlessly. Often resulting in either party going "Ok, I'm done..." Then one later coming up and saying "Wait, I thought about something, now I have this to say".

    AWW! Please don't cry! I really need to make the distinctions here. I know when you open up like that (or Fi's in general) it's very vulnerable and raw. I don't think I was careful enough with how I explained that. You didn't use tact, but that's ok, and in fact using it would be improper. Doing so would completely defeat the purpose and reasons behind your actions. And tact; well that's a beast of its own. It can be a double edged sword because it requires a lot of self-censoring (and is the reason for a great deal of my emotional suppression). At it's worst it can make someone a bald faced liar.

    (I'm gonna be referencing motives here a lot which I know you don't put a premium on, I will get to those in a bit) Here's why I reacted the way I did, and this could be used as a sort of example for Fe/Ni and Ni/Fe reaction to this sort of thing. It's actually stemming from the fact that you never put yourself first. That's actually assumed before even reading the full post and is just gathered from the person (and I have sensed that about you). As you said, it's the reason and why behind it all. For once, you want to and have to put yourself first and take a stand. Fe will say "well, what's better is if you put yourself first more often, then this wouldn't have to happen period! Stop being a pushover/pincushion and be selfish!". Is that fair/right to you? No. Fe reacts that way because it wants personal efficiency. It takes issue with the behavior only slightly because of the perceived "me" aspect. The big issue it takes is with the reasons/events that caused it in the first place. If that could be "fixed" then it would solve the whole situation. I see this sort of thing happen a lot when I see INFP/INFJ spats happen. The INFJ will get pricked because it's seeing the INFP as "screwing up" beforehand, and not doing anything about it. Not taking into account that this is how they opperate. Further, that they're getting shut down over and over form being able to put themselves first.

    Ultimately though, I was aware of the fact that how I reacted initially is not fair. Under normal circumstances I flat out don't mention it as it's not important and would just upset the other party. The reason I brought it up now is because it's highly relevant for the discussion. Fe is judgemental of motives, but also does not run off internal reactions. If it feels an internal reaction, and it doesn't align with motive or intent, then it's disregarded. Anyway I'm starting to digress from the topic at hand. I will close this part by saying: I had an reaction, dismissed it as wrong/unfair, sought to understand the intent and drive, determined it to be very respectable and honest and thus it is to be valued, and ultimately good. Under normal circumstances pre-processing does not come out. I understand, and would not for a second dismiss you for doing so, if anything, that's something I'd hug the person over for what they've done and where they're coming from. I know for Fi this can feel very icky and dishonest, but remember that Fe works on the external.

    As for how to speak to others better... I sadly do not have an answer. What I could offer would be meerly what I have learned to do and how I manage, which most don't understand or flat out dislike. I'd also venture to guess it would be completely counter to how you would operate and would actually be detrimental. That said, @EJCC offers fantastic insight into how to go about this. Generally speaking, if you are helping someone, it's best to adapt to them so they can best absorb what is being taught. If you help another, indeed the focus has to be on the other, and the self needs to be avoided. Going into a "you're so ungreatful!" mode will completely push away the Fe user as it does not tollerate guilt triping at all.

    I wouldn't worry so much of doing Fe-speak. That's not fair to ask yourself to do that anyway. I somewhat disagree with EJCC's assertion that it's either blame or adapt as I don't think it's so much binary. In particular for an INFP that could lead to them going way too far to one extreme or the other. I think something that would be helpful is for either side to consider how they deal with information. For INFP's, try and view things from a motives and purpose standpoint. For them it's not important, but INFJ's use this a good amount, if that's thought about some, it could aid in more mutual ground. For INFJ's to recognize that sometimes, there is no between-the-lines reading, and to realize that an INFP is going to self and internal reference. Don't disregard it or them. I know that might not be as substanting as you'd like, but I don't think there is as clear cut of an answer. I'm also not the best at generalizing in this sort of manner. I'm more case-by-case.
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  3. #93
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @PeaceBaby

    In response to that last question that you asked Hard: What you do is you show value in a way that you know will help the other person. You understand the MBTI, so you should know what INFJs want and need. You know from reading posts by INFJs in this thread and others, exactly what INFJs want and don't want in these situations. So what you can do is use that knowledge, and the sensitivity and caring that comes with being Fi-dom, to help them in a way that focuses on THEM. When Fi-users try to help people in a way that would help another Fi-dom, only for it to backfire, the reaction can often be "How DARE you be so ungrateful when I just bared my soul to you" -- which makes the focus about YOU, when it was never supposed to be about you. It's the opposite of active listening, almost.

    I can fall victim to this, too. But at the same time, I am all too familiar with the reaction that behavior consistently gets in Fe-users. So you have two options: Blame, or adapt. I've chosen to adapt.
    And your comment is what's known as Te invalidation. ok, I hear what you are saying. But God knows, I adapt all the time to other people, so telling me to adapt isn't too helpful. Some INFP descriptions call us the chameleons, and that is certainly what I do. I tailor my interactions to what other people need. But what I am saying is that here, in this forum, with an ideal that all types are allowed to be whatever type we are, why is an INFP the one expected to leave their native cognitive space?

    When, in all the time you've been here, have you seen an INFJ reach out and try to do that? And I don't mean reaching out to try to understand, I mean leave their cognitive preference behind and try to talk Fi. Does not happen. So why are you telling me to leave mine? Because I have thousands of posts behind me that exemplify just that, leaving my space and adapting to the preference of others yet the favor is unrecognized and unreturned.

    I have an inkling of what you'll say back. But I am appealing to your sense of what's fair - is it fair for certain cognitive languages to take precedence over others? You too are trying to shut me up in the Te rather than the Fe way.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #94
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks for your whole post. You speak very well and explain things clearly - even though it's more like confirmation rather than new stuff, it is both very helpful and so sad to be reminded that Fe will always see Fi in this type of way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I wouldn't worry so much of doing Fe-speak. That's not fair to ask yourself to do that anyway. I somewhat disagree with EJCC's assertion that it's either blame or adapt as I don't think it's so much binary. In particular for an INFP that could lead to them going way too far to one extreme or the other. I think something that would be helpful is for either side to consider how they deal with information. For INFP's, try and view things from a motives and purpose standpoint. For them it's not important, but INFJ's use this a good amount, if that's thought about some, it could aid in more mutual ground. For INFJ's to recognize that sometimes, there is no between-the-lines reading, and to realize that an INFP is going to self and internal reference. Don't disregard it or them. I know that might not be as substanting as you'd like, but I don't think there is as clear cut of an answer. I'm also not the best at generalizing in this sort of manner. I'm more case-by-case.
    Well, here's the thing about motive that is difficult. For almost any action a person takes you could assign them a directional motive of binary choice, either positive or negative. Here's a quick example: in an older thread I did a Ti-style analysis of the situation at hand (changed focus and looked at T-data and emulated that Ji space.) So, I do that trying to be helpful, positive intent, again leaving my cognitive preference to reach out, and I'm accused of bad intent. Why? My intent was determined to be deceptive, trying to get closer via pretending to be Ti in order to be some sort of emo-vampire. Every good thing can be flipped over and viewed from the opposite perspective and then evidence gathered to prove that unreality.

    So, if anything I do can be interpreted first by choice through a good intent / bad intent filter, and INFJs can be pretty stolid about holding onto what they believe to be that direction of your motive, what can be done about that?

    And what is the proper reaction when Fe is trying to shut you up? Mine is to say, I won't shut up! Deal with that. So, in your opinion, how do you bypass Je trying to do that stuff?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #95
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    @PeaceBaby

    Note that I never told you to speak Fe, or to leave your Fi at the door. There's a way to compromise. The INFJs in this thread who've been willing to adapt, have been the ones who didn't get upset with the Fi-users, but instead tried to understand where they were coming from. Some INFPs and folks of other types have done the same thing, and have been having a reasonable conversation about it. That has been because these INFJs and INFPs and others have been focusing less on who wronged whom and hurt whose feelings, and more on what can be done to actually prevent that misunderstanding in the future. That's the adaptation I was referring to.

    I see this whole thing as being similar to learning that your SO's love language is different from yours. You can't see how hard they're working to please you, and the reverse is true as well. But you can adapt to one another, as long as you learn each other's languages, accept the validity of their way of doing things, and let go of your resentment.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  6. #96
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    @PeaceBaby

    Note that I never told you to speak Fe, or to leave your Fi at the door. There's a way to compromise. The INFJs in this thread who've been willing to adapt, have been the ones who didn't get upset with the Fi-users, but instead tried to understand where they were coming from. Some INFPs and folks of other types have done the same thing, and have been having a reasonable conversation about it. That has been because these INFJs and INFPs and others have been focusing less on who wronged whom and hurt whose feelings, and more on what can be done to actually prevent that misunderstanding in the future. That's the adaptation I was referring to.
    The adaptation of leaving one's emotions out of the equation?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #97
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    The adaptation of leaving one's emotions out of the equation?
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And what is the proper reaction when Fe is trying to shut you up? Mine is to say, I won't shut up! Deal with that. So, in your opinion, how do you bypass Je trying to do that stuff?
    Not leave out your emotions entirely, but tone them down, and not use them as a weapon. If the goal is to make the INFJ understand you, then lashing out with 500x more Fi is definitely not going to do the job. As for what you WOULD want to do, others have explained it much better in this thread than I could ever hope to.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  8. #98
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I am enjoying reading about INFJ processing. It is fascinating.

    It is true that learning not to use Fi as a weapon is huge in an FJ-FP relationship. It is hard because it is our natural defense. But learning to "give up", break it open and describe the landscape as a 3rd party observer is the best strategy I have found. It also helps the FJ to see your feelings outside the context of motive. It can feel like stifling ourselves, though, which is particularly hard for us because we feel like the world already asks us to stifle so much of our natural communication in everyday relations. However, I think it is important to understand the FJ still being willing to continue discoursing despite conflict as an acquiescence, them leaving their place of comfort. It requires more energy on their part to persist than it does on ours. And once there is trust on both ends, then there can be real listening and appreciation and freedom of understanding on both ends. It's like a Chinese finger trap... you have to give more up front than you feel like you should have to, but it's worth it in the end.

  9. #99
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I am enjoying reading about INFJ processing. It is fascinating.
    Agreed! I love that this thread has become so productive.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It is true that learning not to use Fi as a weapon is huge in an FJ-FP relationship. It is hard because it is our natural defense and it is frightening to feel like we have no protection. But learning to break the feelingscape open and describe it like a 3rd party observer helps the FJ to see FP feelings outside the context of motive - it is somewhat magical to see how it removes the "fight" and turns it into discussion. It feels like giving up, but it's also nice because it requires way less energy than defending. Plus, I think it is important to understand the FJ still being willing to continue discoursing with you despite conflict as an acquiescence, them leaving their place of comfort. It requires more energy on their part to persist than it does on ours.
    +1
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  10. #100
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I am enjoying reading about INFJ processing. It is fascinating.

    It is true that learning not to use Fi as a weapon is huge in an FJ-FP relationship. It is hard because it is our natural defense and it is frightening to feel like we have no protection. But learning to break the feelingscape open and describe it like a 3rd party observer helps the FJ to see FP feelings outside the context of motive - it is somewhat magical to see how it removes the "fight" and turns it into discussion. It feels like giving up, but it's also nice because it requires way less energy than defending. Plus, I think it is important to understand the FJ still being willing to continue discoursing with you despite conflict as an acquiescence, them leaving their place of comfort. It requires more energy on their part to persist than it does on ours.
    Wow, that is really insightful! I never even realized that Fi could be used as a defense, but it makes sense.
    Thank you for helping me see. Also, @EJCCyour dedication to learning and understanding really impresses me.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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