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  1. #1
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Default Video: INFP vs. INFJ: Andrew Garfield and Carey Mulligan

    • Excellent comparison of Fi vs Fe by comparison of two actors and how they interact during an interview
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    Default Video: INFP vs. INFJ: Andrew Garfield and Carey Mulligan

    I loved the clarity of your explanations...who produced this video and explanation...could I see more of your work?...man do I miss being around those "Carey" types...I want sincerity more than anything else but really love those who display their ability to know you are there in the room with them...that warmth and humanity.. being touched by their words...could you contact me re the above please...Mergewithgod...thanks...
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  3. #3
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    I love this video. I think it does a great job demonstrating Fi/Fe difference. To me they both seem like lovely, concerned, warm, deep-thinking individuals, and it's pleasing to watch them share and interact.

    I do think it's worth noting, even though Garfield isn't using Fe in that first example, he does say something about shifting into the same position as Mulligan making him feel like they're bonded, aligned, and he does communicate self-consciousness that others may be impacted by him changing positions, even though he does it without asking. It's a good example of how Fi can still be personable/social even though it prioritizes individual needs/freedoms. An interesting difference is how Fi usage tends to more responding/mirroring and informing - more passive/responsive behavior - whereas Fe usage tends to gently taking the lead and guiding others. Both do touch base with others and seek personal feedback, Fi just, as the video notes well, carries much personal and context-independent content (useful to examine Ti/Te in that light as well), whereas Fe users are so beautifully aware and respectful of the feelings of the people in their immediate environment.

    The way Mulligan responded to Garfield after him sharing his feelings on school is why I love being around many FJs. That ease of soothing, encouragement, and warm support.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Yaru's Avatar
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    Really useful video. I am way more INFP, but I do have some INFJ behaviors sometimes, I guess that's because my Fe isn't completely dead (Even because I often can perceive how people is feeling like and it can strongly affect my mood. I've learned to control that better because wasn't let me live.) but they can often be more unnatural to me.

    Getting really talkative about a certain subject and get really self conscious when realizing it ...it happens all the time.

    I don't know. I still can relate to some INFJ traits.

    Personality traits: a summary by Yar'Chun
    Introverted - Independent bitch
    Extraverted - Weak
    Intuitive - Creative 4th dimension spacelord
    Sensing - Dumb
    Feeling - Such confused wow
    Thinking - Smart
    Judjing - Nel mio intimo c'è Chilly
    Perceiving - Oooh butterflies


  5. #5
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Yep, I hate it.

    I think that guy is ENFP. I don't see him as INFP nor relate to his "style" of communicating speaking. He seems quite extroverted, and I struggle to grasp why he's type as a Fi-dominant.

    Compare him to other celebrity Fi-dom males, and it's pretty obvious he is operating from an ExFx style, not an IxFP style.

    Jung on Fi:
    It makes people silent and difficult of access... It comes out with negative judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference as a means of defense.

    Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand... They neither shine nor reveal themselves.

    If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness...

    Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly...

    Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all....To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible...
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #7
    Senior Member reckful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Yep, I hate it.

    I think that guy is ENFP. I don't see him as INFP nor relate to his "style" of communicating speaking. He seems quite extroverted, and I struggle to grasp why he's type as a Fi-dominant.

    Compare him to other celebrity Fi-dom males, and it's pretty obvious he is operating from an ExFx style, not an IxFP style.

    Jung on Fi:
    It makes people silent and difficult of access... It comes out with negative judgments or assumes an air of profound indifference as a means of defense.

    Still waters run deep' is very true of such women. They are mostly silent, inaccessible, and hard to understand... They neither shine nor reveal themselves.

    If this outward aspect is more pronounced, it arouses a suspicion of indifference and coldness...

    Expression of feeling, therefore, remains niggardly...

    Since this type appears rather cold and reserved, it might seem on a superficial view that such women have no feelings at all....To the outside world, or to the blind eyes of the extravert, this intensive sympathy looks like coldness, because it usually does nothing visible...
    As a side note, and as I've previously noted, Jung generally associated the personality characteristics that get somebody typed P on the MBTI with P-doms, not J-doms. So Jung's Fi-dom description should really be matched to an INFJ (Jungian stack: Fi-Ni-Se-Te), not an INFP (Jungian stack: Ni-Fi-Te-Se).

    But that's not to say it's a good match for INFJs, either. I really don't think Jung's Fi-dom description is anything like a respectable portrait of the real-world people who come out as either INF type on the MBTI. The INFPs I've known certainly haven't been anything like above-average in the outward coldness department. Reserved, especially with strangers, yes — to the extent of their introversion, and depending on the circumstances. But an outward demeanor dominated by "negative judgments" and/or "an air of profound indifference"? Not hardly.

    So I'm surprised to find you deciding whether somebody in a video is an INFP based on how well their communication "style" matches Jung's over-the-top (and predominantly negative) Fi-dom description. It's not as jump-the-sharky as his Si-dom description, but almost any modern INFP or INFJ portrait — whether from a dichotomy-centric source or a function-centric source — does a substantially better job of capturing those types than Jung did.

    As you know, Jung viewed a typical Fi-dom as a woman whose core feature was deep, oversized passions that didn't tend to match up with anything in the real world, and so, "being shut off from every means of expression," her "intensive feeling ... acquires a passionate depth that comprises a whole world of misery and simply gets benumbed." And it's not hard to imagine any Limbic (especially) and strongly-introverted IN feeling like that description — like many of Jung's descriptions of (what he saw as) all the introverted types' fraught relations with their "turbulent" and problematic emotions — seems to capture some of the flavor of their emotional awkwardness, and their tendency to feel like their grandest passions more typically alienate them from the "real world" than connect them to the real world.

    But as a description of either of the INF types in more ordinary mode, and how they're likely to characteristically come across to others, I'd say Jung's portrait leaves a lot to be desired.

    Assuming you subscribe to the INFJ=Ni-Fe model, do you consider Jung's Ni-dom description a good match for a typical INFJ, and would you be inclined to judge whether someone in a video was an INFJ based on how well they corresponded with that description? Describing Ni-doms and Si-doms both, Jung said "nothing is outwardly visible but reserve, secretiveness, lack of sympathy, uncertainty, and an apparently groundless embarrassment"; and he noted that "their communications are without the personal warmth that alone carries the power of conviction. On the contrary, these types have very often a harsh, repelling manner, though of this they are quite unaware and did not intend it." Do you think that's a good fit for Carey Mulligan (or most INFJs)?
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  8. #8
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reckful View Post
    As a side note, and as I've previously noted, Jung generally associated the personality characteristics that get somebody typed P on the MBTI with P-doms, not J-doms. So Jung's Fi-dom description should really be matched to an INFJ (Jungian stack: Fi-Ni-Se-Te), not an INFP (Jungian stack: Ni-Fi-Te-Se).

    I disagree, because MBTI is going by the extroverted function when it determines "P" or "J", which are just shorthand for a whole mentality. Ji and Je in Jung's theory are quite different, as are Pe & Pi. They have opposite attitudes. He notes how they have to basically suppress the other, ie. to be a Pi-dom, you are rejecting Pe in a sense (more specifically, a Ni-dom rejects Se, but of course the suppression of it still "comes out", in a rudimentary, negative form).

    IMO, the MBTI "P" characteristics are a result of the Pe+Ji mentality, and the "J" characteristics are a result of the Je+Pi mentality, and so Pi often has as much influence in "J traits" as Je does.

    Socionics makes the mistake of thinking that Ji and Je are the same if they have the same function (ie. feeling or thinking), just whether the person is an introvert or extrovert. So it makes Fi sound like Fe-aux in an IxFJ, which is why the types don't match up to MBTI neatly. They change the whole dynamic of the psychological types that Jung set up, by removing how the attitudes relate. MBTI is more faithful to it, IMO. Ji and Je are totally different because the attitude changes how the function relates to reality, and that's why Fe & Fi are totally different types, not simply the same type with a different I/E preference. This is why the "P" in MBTI is referring to a whole mentality which includes Ji.

    So an INFP, aka FiNe, exhibits Pe qualities at times, especially when it comes to extroverted things like interacting. Being Ji-dom in itself leads to MBTI "P" personality traits. However, they still are Fi-dom, and will be characterized by Fi more than Ne, and so that's the key. Is this person, who shows both Fi and Ne thinking, characterized by Fi or by Ne?

    For Garfield, I see a personality characterized by Ne, not by Fi. While his thinking shows some of both, his demeanor is that of the Ne-dom, and his evident mentality is more Ne also.

    I have yet to hear any argument for why he is INFP and not ENFP - instead, someone makes a video and says he is INFP, and now it's unquestionable .

    But that's not to say it's a good match for INFJs, either. I really don't think Jung's Fi-dom description is anything like a respectable portrait of the real-world people who come out as either INF type on the MBTI. The INFPs I've known certainly haven't been anything like above-average in the outward coldness department. Reserved, especially with strangers, yes — to the extent of their introversion, and depending on the circumstances. But an outward demeanor dominated by "negative judgments" and/or "an air of profound indifference"? Not hardly.
    On INFP messageboards, that description is pretty popular, as in, many relate a lot to it. Personally, it fits me better than most INFP descriptions, and it's what led me to type as Fi-dom. Van Der Hoops is good to me also, and perhaps less densely worded than Jung and easier for people to see an average Fi-dom in. It says pretty much the same thing, but in softer language.

    Van Der Hoop: Here the activities of feeling are hidden, and from the outside there is, as a rule, little to tell us that we are dealing with a person of feeling-type.
    They conceal their sensitiveness behind a mask, which may be childish or simple, or again conventional, remote, or it may be friendly...
    Outwardly, their feelings are not very obvious, for when these are affected, these people tend to withdraw into themselves...
    In ordinary life their mask conceals what they really are.
    ..There is...something very individual about them...which will come to expression....especially in two situations: when they achieve real contact with another person; and when, in a state of high emotional excitement, they stand up for a threatened ideal.
    In the first case, a very profound relationship of mutual understanding may suddenly come into being....


    I would end up quoting the whole description if I continued.

    That video is not a "profound relationship of mutual understanding" unfolding before our eyes.

    Also, feeling coming out in negative judgments doesn't mean the person is critical all the time - it means they have a "benevolent neutrality" (which stems from a profound indifference), aka they don't reveal how they feel about things at all, although they may seem kind and easy-going. In most everyday matters, nothing strikes me as significant enough to summon emotional energy, and whether or not I seem like a nice, easy-going, quiet person or an aloof, dismissive, rude person, depends a lot on the interpretation and attitude of the other person.

    Example - someone is excited about something, but to you, a Fi-dom, it is personally not exciting. You find it hard to mimic their emotional energy, because your mentality is to reject influence of the object so as to maintain purity of your feelings, and this can look like you are a "downer". Even if you give the appropriate, polite response (because you can intellectually grasp that their excitement is valid for them), that person feels like your not meeting their emotional energy is a devaluation of their feeling. However, to the Fi-type, it's simply not abandoning their own feeling to adopt someone else's, but not opposing them either. Sensitive people, as Jung notes, will take this as a rebuffing of their feeling and the value behind it. He's describing how the Fi types protection of their own feeling and outward indifference can appear to others, and it can be seen as cold or as a "sympathetic repose".

    Most Fi descriptions note that strong feeling tends to come out in response to a violation - THAT is the "negative judgement" that comes to the surface. So in everyday matters, there is someone who seems unaffected but perhaps pleasant and easy-going, until something violates a value, and then they express themselves very strongly.

    That aligns pretty well with most IxFPs, IMO.

    The mirroring that Garfield shows and the adapting of his manner to match someone nearby so as to generate rapport, is indicative of an Extroverted mentality. Mirroring is far more associated with Ne & Fe than Fi. He is adjusting himself to the object, a key point in the definition of the extrovert.

    So I'm surprised to find you deciding whether somebody in a video is an INFP based on how well their communication "style" matches Jung's over-the-top (and predominantly negative) Fi-dom description. It's not as jump-the-sharky as his Si-dom description, but almost any modern INFP or INFJ portrait — whether from a dichotomy-centric source or a function-centric source — does a substantially better job of capturing those types than Jung did.

    As you know, Jung viewed a typical Fi-dom as a woman whose core feature was deep, oversized passions that didn't tend to match up with anything in the real world, and so, "being shut off from every means of expression," her "intensive feeling ... acquires a passionate depth that comprises a whole world of misery and simply gets benumbed." And it's not hard to imagine any Limbic (especially) and strongly-introverted IN feeling like that description — like many of Jung's descriptions of (what he saw as) all the introverted types' fraught relations with their "turbulent" and problematic emotions — seems to capture some of the flavor of their emotional awkwardness, and their tendency to feel like their grandest passions more typically alienate them from the "real world" than connect them to the real world.

    But as a description of either of the INF types in more ordinary mode, and how they're likely to characteristically come across to others, I'd say Jung's portrait leaves a lot to be desired.
    It's incomplete because it leaves out the extroverted function. No person is a "pure type". INFPs have Ne qualities also. The Ne description is an over-the-top charismatic, energetic, fickle, novelty-seeking person. This is what brings animation to the Fi-dom who is otherwise "shut off from every means of expression".

    This is also why people can sometimes confuse types, such as typing an ENFP as INFP. Again, I say compare that Garfield guy to more prototypical INFP males and you can easily he has the nature of an extrovert, not an introvert.

    You make my point for me - a core feature vs something anyone may possess to a degree.
    Some of what he describes is just introversion, but this goes beyond that to being a core feature of Introverted Feeling type. They don't just possess that trait, they are defined by it.

    Assuming you subscribe to the INFJ=Ni-Fe model, do you consider Jung's Ni-dom description a good match for a typical INFJ, and would you be inclined to judge whether someone in a video was an INFJ based on how well they corresponded with that description? Describing Ni-doms and Si-doms both, Jung said "nothing is outwardly visible but reserve, secretiveness, lack of sympathy, uncertainty, and an apparently groundless embarrassment"; and he noted that "their communications are without the personal warmth that alone carries the power of conviction. On the contrary, these types have very often a harsh, repelling manner, though of this they are quite unaware and did not intend it." Do you think that's a good fit for Carey Mulligan (or most INFJs)?
    Yes, I consider his Ni-dom description to be good, although it is hard to grasp because of his dense & esoteric writing style. When you apply his Te & Fe descriptions to it, then I can easily see how the INTJ & INFJ personalities emerge.

    However, I think his worst description is Fe, because I think he understood it the least (which is why I don't think he is INFJ, although that's another topic entirely). He has bias in his descriptions, but he does better job of focusing on mentalities over specific behaviors than some other typologies (ie. socionics, Keirsey), and if you understand the descriptions as mentalities, then you have a less narrow view of how a person of that type may appear. The indifference of the Fi type may not always look cold, in fact, it may even be confused for "too nice" if they are indifferent enough to not resist the flow much (more common in e9s, but also a result of Ne - being open to possibilities and moving with them as they develop, without being attached to any of it).

    When he mentioned "harsh, repelling" for Pi-dom - that's the IxTJs. Aren't they often characterized that way from the outside? When he mentions lack of "personal warmth", then he means animation, which is certainly less in an IxxJ than in an extrovert. People associated animated demeanors with Feeling, but it's far more accurately connected to Extroversion. Feeling only becomes animated when it requires emotion to express a feeling-value, and that's not something Fi types do a lot in a public setting (unless there's a violation). IxFJs use Feeling as an auxiliary, so it exists as part of their mentality, but they are far less characterized by it.

    I don't know much about Mulligan, but she doesn't seem characterized by Fe (which I think the video even admits). She is likely Pi-dom, but beyond that, I don't know.

    Most INFJs I've known can be warm and animated in close company also - among strangers or people they do not trust, then they can seem very aloof and reserved. That's a common thing with introverts, yes.

    However, being an IxFJ, she is more inclined to match someone's feeling, even if she doesn't personally feel it (and a disturbing thing about FJs is that they are often unaware of this, because their own feeling genuinely seems to shift to match others - both Jung & Van Der Hoop describe this aspect of the Fe type). She still doesn't adjust to the object nearly as much as Garfield does, and that's an I/E difference more than anything.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #9
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    For Garfield, I see a personality characterized by Ne, not by Fi. While his thinking shows some of both, his demeanor is that of the Ne-dom, and his evident mentality is more Ne also.

    I have yet to hear any argument for why he is INFP and not ENFP - instead, someone makes a video and says he is INFP, and now it's unquestionable

    He's an ENFP (or possibly an ESFJ as I didn't watch the entire video but I definitely lean ENFP here.) He's in no way an INFP.
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  10. #10
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled,

    I haven't researched deeply, but of what I have read about Garfield, much of it suggests INFP-like characteristics - "sincere", "soulful", "sensitive", explaining how his dad always romanticized the movies and can sort of live that vicariously through him. He is complimented for his depth and nuance of emotion, and he speaks to feeling concern, fascination, and idealism in regards to starting a family. He speaks of how being bullied as a child allowed him to better portray a victimized character and he talks about how falling in love in character is a joyful experience. Again, this is only what I have read, but it is very much content filled with idealism, impression, reflection, how he feels, how he experiences other people and situations. Within the video itself, he delves deeply into that one subject that he is passionate about, and describes his feelings and the ethical implications.

    It all seems very much F-laden content, with Ne-like content really only tying things together. He seems warm and hesitantly open, but certainly that is not impossible from an INFP, particularly considering that he is an actor by trade and is "performing" in a way for the interview. Those are the reasons I did not consider questioning INFP for him - it seems like a very reasonable fit. Whereas many agreed that Robin Williams was a good Ne dominant example - so much more initiating, engaging, idea-focused. Still a beautiful and soulful person but he seemed to communicate his genuineness through the "zest" and yearning he put into his characters. Whereas Garfield seems to imbue vulnerability and depth instead. Though perhaps that could also be an Enneagram difference.

    I am not completely sold on the matter and am just brainstorming, so please do not take this as a debate - just some thoughts to add. I would be interested to hear if you have counterexamples and a different perspective.

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