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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Doubt it. The description you've given of "Se" describes guess what.
    I'm not sure. I think I'm Se, at least. We aren't good at guessing games.

    Well then good luck. So far the weakness of the orange has been it's not an apple.
    Or that we haven't talked much about the inferior states of apples at all.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Cool. Introspection is nice. I think I would personally prefer Te/Ni.... :P But Ni/Te seems nice as well. It's a good question indeed, are functions derived from what we value or are they derived from unconscious tendency?
    I would say they are derived from neither. Functions are not unconscious or the creation of the unconscious since Jung makes a very clear case to separate conscious and unconscious content of the mind. Rather, functions are innate abilities of how humans understand the world just like we are genetically capable to see with our eyes. As we grow as human beings, we need to find ways to cope with the world and functions play a role in that functions act as an ego defense mechanism. It helps us to make sense of the world around us and sort out the information that we perceive. To take on a specific function perspective over that of another is thus the result of ego conscious preference since it is a perceived choice that we made, even if are not aware of this choice per se. Awareness is separate from consciousness in this context.

    Yeah, for sure. That's a large gripe of mine with the system, one of many, subjective typing and such. It starts to grow so fuzzy interpersonally I'm not sure how effective the system even is outside of a clinical setting administered for psycho-therapeutic reasons.
    Did you ever look at socionics? It shows how powerful Jungian typology can become when properly developed.

    Hm. I'm not sure. I've understood precisely what you are getting at, and I'm just not sure if I agree. I bike to my college campus pretty frequently at night, 2 or 3 AM in the morning, and just earlier tonight the lake in the center of campus really caught my eye, perhaps the moon being so bright lately. I just sat there for thirty minutes in wonder marveling over all kinds of things about the universe. I jumped up and down the steps to the lake and I biked around its perimeter to see what it looked like from the other side.

    If anything, what you describe sounds like developed Se - making you not Se-inferior, perhaps. Ni-dom still, sure, but not Se-inferior. Se delights in new experience, it is most in its element when it recognizes a new available perception or something such as this. You linked Se and Te earlier together, and I have as well.... perhaps your developed Te has raised your Se out of the inferior state?
    No, this is not a case of developed Se. The fact that I find these instances rare and they do not pre-occupy my conscious mind and that Se does not rule my sense of perception as a whole suggests inferiority. I would argue that the word "development" is even often misused in these instances because by "developed" what we really refer to is differentiated, but if my dominant perception is ruled by Ni, I cannot and will never differentiate Se into my ego as an ego conscious perspective since it is the very perspective that I reject.

    Any type with Se as a part of their function stacking can do the above but what separates them from ego-conscious to inferior Se types is how and why they do it. You won't see ego Se types run around yelling over how awesome the thunderstorm is. While the thunderstorm itself might be a powerful experience that they enjoy, when one is naturally attuned to this kind of sense data you are also capable of separating what kind of Se content is valuable or reasonable over other kinds of Se content.

    Just like how inferior Ni can appear as paranoia and reading intent that's not there and the dominant Ni type would automatically dismiss the inferior Ni type for this reason since I know when they are reading too much into things, a dominant Se type can tell an inferior Se type similarly when they are getting over-excited and reading too much into sense stimuli. There is a level of normalization when it comes to your dominant perspective.

    So we've got three perceptions, now - Se-inferior means A) it is difficult or rare to appreciate reality for what it is, B) you are a sensotard or C) you prefer intellectually contrived definitions over objective experience. My apologies if I misinterpreted your intent with these listings, of which yours is A.
    What do b) and c) even mean? How meaningful are they as actual typology classifications? Couldn't they actually just be stuffed into a much better, broader and well-developed category that is inferior sensation?
    No doubt, if my mind said "They could drink apple juice, or orange juice, or eat stew from it, or throw it against the wall" yes, that would be very Ne-esque, but that isn't quite the picture I was attempting to detail. Se fails to postulate anything about their intent at all. It remains open to all possibility by not narrowing possibilities. It sees the cup as a cup and little else.
    I am still slightly irked when you suggest Se is open to any possibility by not narrowing possibilities but I see what you mean and I agree with your general idea.

    And this is why Se can be a very, very facile function, and why many do not view Buddhist philosophy, for example, as a worthy pursuit. The duality between intuition and sensation can be summed up quite like this:

    "Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand."
    I am not sure I agree that the proverb really captures the dual nature of how intuition and sensation interplay.

    Aye. It would fun to explore tertiary/inferior Ni in XSTP's.
    Not sure I want to since weak intuition tends to annoy the hell out of me when I detect it in others, especially if they try to rationally reason.

    It's rough remaining patient in mind when you've got a swearing bodybuilder in your backseat telling you how stupid you are
    Or you could simply have told him off which I would have had.

    I tested 6, and 8 before that, many moons ago. Perhaps you are correct, but (and we talked about this earlier), ISTP 9 is my ideal state of being. Fake it 'til you make it.
    No. You can't fake enneagram.

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Yeah. Jung still labels it an irrational function, for this intriguing reason. Which is a lot of what my Se-fail stories stem from, as my Ni-fail stories do.
    Not sure I follow this. Irrationality has nothing to do with irrational behavior or anything of the sort if I were to try to apply what you are saying here to the anecdote you offered as an example of Ni fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Are the voices in my head asking me questions again?
    If you're not interested in having a serious discussion I won't bother more with you. Such an Ni type you are.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  3. #53
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Aww.

    Okay, fine. I'll play. Would you care to comment on the difference between "convert" and "reformulate"
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I suppose Se is the most in the moment, in a sense - but I prefer not to think of it as some high-level acuity to the physical realm in the manner the video in the OP suggests. It's more like if Se sees someone going for a mug, they wish to stay open to the possibility they will pour apple juice, milk, eat soup, or even throw it against a wall - while Ni is more into applying patterns as you've stated, such as equating coffee mugs to coffee. Se does not like making these connections in such an intuitive fashion, even so far as repressing intuitive reactions to circumstance - Jung predicts Se finds them archaic and grotesque.
    And yet, ESTPs and, to a lesser level of fame, ESFPs are readers of people. They do it well enough that they can be steps ahead of whoever is suffering them presently. How so, mon bro? For if that talent is Se + good ol archaic Ni and archaic Ni is bereft of some ability to be any good at anything, then they'd have to be fairly poor at knowing what comes next given the pattern of physical signs they see.

    That they don't consciously control the inferior function hardly makes it missing in action. So what's really going on for the poor and poorly dressed inferior Se people, eh?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #55
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    Did you ever look at socionics? It shows how powerful Jungian typology can become when properly developed.
    Yeah. I'm near my infancy of study. It seems to be a well-thought out system, and the subsequent dogma shows it - some of my primary concerns. Still intriguing, nonetheless. A lot of free information floating about.

    No, this is not a case of developed Se. The fact that I find these instances rare and they do not pre-occupy my conscious mind and that Se does not rule my sense of perception as a whole suggests inferiority. I would argue that the word "development" is even often misused in these instances because by "developed" what we really refer to is differentiated, but if my dominant perception is ruled by Ni, I cannot and will never differentiate Se into my ego as an ego conscious perspective since it is the very perspective that I reject.

    Any type with Se as a part of their function stacking can do the above but what separates them from ego-conscious to inferior Se types is how and why they do it. You won't see ego Se types run around yelling over how awesome the thunderstorm is. While the thunderstorm itself might be a powerful experience that they enjoy, when one is naturally attuned to this kind of sense data you are also capable of separating what kind of Se content is valuable or reasonable over other kinds of Se content.

    Just like how inferior Ni can appear as paranoia and reading intent that's not there and the dominant Ni type would automatically dismiss the inferior Ni type for this reason since I know when they are reading too much into things, a dominant Se type can tell an inferior Se type similarly when they are getting over-excited and reading too much into sense stimuli. There is a level of normalization when it comes to your dominant perspective.
    Hm. Perhaps they are more somber about it given they've experienced it before/recently.

    I disagree with your concluding assessments. Ni in the dominant position does not mean you utilize intuition well inherently. It means you are intermingled with the aspects of Ni Jung describes at elevated levels. Bad intuition is also not a facet of tertiary/inferior intuition, such as paranoia or what you speak of. I'll touch on it below.

    What do b) and c) even mean? How meaningful are they as actual typology classifications? Couldn't they actually just be stuffed into a much better, broader and well-developed category that is inferior sensation?
    B is what is described in the video, on the whole. C is what Jung ascribes. They could, but they would no longer be Jungian cognitive functions. They are meaningful from an arena of psycho-therapeutic thought, for identification of patient mentalities and isolating the variables that cause them cognitive distress.

    From a realm of self-identification... I'm starting to believe that was never the purpose of the system upon outset.

    I am still slightly irked when you suggest Se is open to any possibility by not narrowing possibilities but I see what you mean and I agree with your general idea.
    It is perhaps an irksome concept, particularly from my idolized point of view, but take this: "His ideal is the actual; in this respect he is considerate."

    Considerate of all possible futures, all possible perceptions, is what he alludes to.

    I am not sure I agree that the proverb really captures the dual nature of how intuition and sensation interplay.
    Hm. I see it, and will be thinking about it over the coming stretch of time.

    Not sure I want to since weak intuition tends to annoy the hell out of me when I detect it in others, especially if they try to rationally reason.
    One facet of intuition I am jelly of, the interplay of personal dynamics. I've sat next to someone of interest, thoughts churning, afraid to express them. Textbook repression of intuition.

    Or you could simply have told him off which I would have had.
    This would ruin the pleasurable, sensationalist mind I strive for.

    No. You can't fake enneagram.
    A nine can use the three ideal for growth, a five can use the two ideal for growth, and etcetera. I am not one to think you are locked into anything regarding the psyche - at least, in a sense that a captain can't steer his ship.

    Not sure I follow this. Irrationality has nothing to do with irrational behavior or anything of the sort if I were to try to apply what you are saying here to the anecdote you offered as an example of Ni fail.
    The irrational functions - Ne, Se, Ni, Si. The rational functions - Te, Fe, Ti and Fi. The former are irrational because they depend upon experience, they will never be perfectly in tune with reality unless you can accumulate one hundred percent of the universe's energy (or something ). The latter are rational because they are worked out from the experience the aforementioned. The irrational functions expand the scope of the mind both good and bad, the latter personally interprets it.

    This is what I have gathered so far, at least - I have much more study to do regarding the subject.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    And yet, ESTPs and, to a lesser level of fame, ESFPs are readers of people. They do it well enough that they can be steps ahead of whoever is suffering them presently. How so, mon bro? For if that talent is Se + good ol archaic Ni and archaic Ni is bereft of some ability to be any good at anything, then they'd have to be fairly poor at knowing what comes next given the pattern of physical signs they see.
    Ahead in what manner? Physical, task-oriented thinking, yeah. If you command an ESTP and a non-ESTP to grab a cup from the cupboard, it is likely statistically probable the ESTP will interpret and achieve this task first. This is why typological sports analysts find Se users desirable. But I don't think they're any better at reading people than any other type has the propensity to do, probably worse. If it is an above-common expression from Se-doms, this is perhaps resultant of Se being overconfident in its ability to perceive, something Jung describes. Both Se and Ni have equal propensity to be overconfident in their perceptions, just in different manners.

    That they don't consciously control the inferior function hardly makes it missing in action.
    Sounds correct. If there is extension of logic I would be glad to hear it.

    So what's really going on for the poor and poorly dressed inferior Se people, eh?
    Inferior-Se in the MBTI sense that any type's inferior function is hard set? Too subjectively varying from person to person, but conceptually, it means you are closer to what Jung describes of introverted intuition than the other three comparable dichotomies.

    Inferior-Se in the sense Jung describes? They are webbed in thought, fanatics of information, highly skeptical of contrary manners of thinking, the intellectual turtles of the spectrum.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Ahead in what manner? Physical, task-oriented thinking, yeah. If you command an ESTP and a non-ESTP to grab a cup from the cupboard, it is likely statistically probable the ESTP will interpret and achieve this task first.
    lol.

    It's statistically probable the ESTP will turn the situation around so they do the commanding and you get them a cup and maybe a sammich while you're there.

    You're going to have to come clean about your type preferences before this conversation can continue. This bizarre, actually anti-S thing you've got going is sick. SICK! Your version of "Se" sounds like Ne and Ss are stupid? Reveal yourself ENTP!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    lol.

    It's statistically probable the ESTP will turn the situation around so they do the commanding and you get them a cup and maybe a sammich while you're there.

    You're going to have to come clean about your type preferences before this conversation can continue. This bizarre, actually anti-S thing you've got going is sick. SICK! Your version of "Se" sounds like Ne and Ss are stupid? Reveal yourself ENTP!

    Sounds nice. Maybe I can work on being ESTP, then.

    Anti-S? Is this some kind of... Ni mind game I'm not getting? I abandoned all shreds of thought regarding myself ENTP long ago, though you are welcome to continue to express the sentiment.

  9. #59
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So, PersonalityPage, potentially not canon, but we'll get to the Jung eventually...

    ESTPs have an uncanny ability to perceive people's attitudes and motivations. They pick up on little cues which go completely unnoticed by most other types, such as facial expressions and stance. They're typically a couple of steps ahead of the person they're interacting with. ESTPs use this ability to get what they want out of a situation. Rules and laws are seen as guidelines for behavior, rather than mandates. If the ESTP has decided that something needs to be done, then their "do it and get on with it" attitude takes precendence over the rules. However, the ESTP tends to have their own strong belief in what's right and what's wrong, and will doggedly stick to their principles. The Rules of the Establishment may hold little value to the ESTP, but their own integrity mandates that they will not under any circumstances do something which they feel to be wrong.

    These "cues".... how does "Se" do that? How does a person living in the physical world as if it were renewed every second go about knowing what's a cue?

    And, eventually, conversely, how does some poor schlub sitting in a basement, dreaming up really kind of fixed interpretive patterns about the world that don't bear much relationship to reality as it is now... how does that guy have any kind of interpretive strength at all?



    The short answer is it really doesn't matter one fig how much the person dislikes having their inferior process come into dominance, it exists for them anyway and informs their dominant cognition whether they like it or not--and they don't like it. they can't control it. But it happens anyway.

    Thus, probably the problems people have with "Ni vision" is a boatload more related to INTJs tending to close of perception options for other people by being judgmental, and nothing much at all to do with the content of... dun dun dUUUNNN
    TEH VISIRN!!!1
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    So, PersonalityPage, potentially not canon, but we'll get to the Jung eventually...

    ESTPs have an uncanny ability to perceive people's attitudes and motivations. They pick up on little cues which go completely unnoticed by most other types, such as facial expressions and stance. They're typically a couple of steps ahead of the person they're interacting with. ESTPs use this ability to get what they want out of a situation. Rules and laws are seen as guidelines for behavior, rather than mandates. If the ESTP has decided that something needs to be done, then their "do it and get on with it" attitude takes precendence over the rules. However, the ESTP tends to have their own strong belief in what's right and what's wrong, and will doggedly stick to their principles. The Rules of the Establishment may hold little value to the ESTP, but their own integrity mandates that they will not under any circumstances do something which they feel to be wrong.

    These "cues".... how does "Se" do that? How does a person living in the physical world as if it were renewed every second go about knowing what's a cue?
    Se is a general attitude. It is not the act of absolute perception, which is why it is required to be and can only be paired with functions such as Ti/Te/Fi/Fe. This attitude leads to the things Jung describes, of them perceiving the objective realm abnormally clear. They don't get bogged down in thought, they are always pushing forth. It is why Se has tert/inferior Ni, they still have intuition, in a classical sense - but they refuse to let it clog up their future perceptions.

    And, eventually, conversely, how does some poor schlub sitting in a basement, dreaming up really kind of fixed interpretive patterns about the world that don't bear much relationship to reality as it is now... how does that guy have any kind of interpretive strength at all?
    Through what he has sensed. You can be an adept intuitor and an adept sensor. Probably would make for an ideal person, though I personally prefer sensing (obvi).

    The short answer is it really doesn't matter one fig how much the person dislikes having their inferior process come into dominance, it exists for them anyway and informs their dominant cognition whether they like it or not--and they don't like it. they can't control it. But it happens anyway.

    Thus, probably the problems people have with "Ni vision" is a boatload more related to INTJs tending to close of perception options for other people by being judgmental, and nothing much at all to do with the content of... dun dun dUUUNNN
    TEH VISIRN!!!1
    Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. Do you recall the fight fire with fire comment, I referenced earlier? This is exactly what I was alluding to, I am glad you touched on it.

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