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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Interesting comments overall. I actually don't think the characterization of INTJs vs. ENTPs is correct. Ni looks further in the future than Ne. I think ENTPs are better at picking up emerging trends and gain their visionary reputation from calling these things correctly. The INTJ looks much further into the future. What they anticipate may not happen for 20, 30, 50 or 100 years. It is true that INTJs tend to be good contingency planners. They have a knack for anticipating what is going to go wrong. It's a Te type that uses the Ni to foresee these likely scenarios of things getting derailed and upsetting plans which they have.

    Yes - Ni dominants are ideologues, as was stated. It has nothing to do with their in-the-moment presence, they can be just as perceptive and aware as any type. Where they differ from other types (such as INTP and ISFP) is that they are deeply invested in their perceptions. They trust their mind first and foremost, exemplifying intuition in a classical sense to the utmost definition.


    No, it's different than that. It has to do with having a poor awareness of the environment. I can think of a few examples. I lose my keys or my wallet often. It's especially bad when I'm in a hurry - I get flustered and angry at myself. There is an overreaction to this mistake. Another example is where I have my facts wrong. I probably am more embarrassed than other people are. When I was in college, my roommate put a 5 foot plant in our room and asked me what was different. For the life of me, I couldn't figure it out till he pointed it out to me. On numerous occasions, I have missed the exit off the expressway to my house because I was in that zone thinking about something. There have been cases where I've driven miles further than I should and then noticed the scenery was different than what I was used to. I often put on my GPS so I don't make these kinds of mistakes even when I know where I am going. Those are inferior Se type things.

    Effective Se is about being immersed in the current moment, the current experience, acting in the physical world, and using the information currently gathered to do something with it now (or next).

    I wholeheartedly disagree. I am horribly absentminded, once I forgot to bring paperwork for a meeting and when I went home to get it, I left my house again without taking the paperwork. I was halfway back to work when I realized it, and the whole trek back home and then back to work I was pouring sweat wondering what everyone thought of me. This is a facet of my character I am horribly ashamed of, though I still have no doubt I am some sort of ISTP. I've tested ENTP-INTP-ISTP from the beginning, and even after extensive prodding through functional descriptions I highly doubt I stray from the formula of Se or Ne in my upper stacking - yet the fact remains...

    Se-inferiority is not what is described in the video. What is described in the video is being human.


    What I was cringing about at points was that she kept bringing up the criticism that he made a mistake. He doesn't need to be reminded of that.

    I think she was really trying to drive home the fact that INTJ's are bumbling Se-inferior idiots. I will have to watch other videos, but I still posit a closer form of ENFP over INFJ. Which would explain her relationship with an INTJ, really

  2. #12
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Those are funny comments coming from an INTP
    INTPs have a definite taste for the visceral, lent by their auxiliary Ne. It usually manifests as somewhat rebellious - I'm going to break the rules of acceptable dress, I say shocking things, I'm gonna troll someone, etc. Indeed, the INTP has a "wild side" (or weird) that comes out at fairly often or constant intervals. They may be called "nerds," but they aren't nerds in the original sense of being too dry.

    The IxxJ has no taste for this kind of thing. They don't often do things people would consider wild or rebellious, unless they've had a lot to drink perhaps. They prefer to stay within the lines. They are often the butt of jokes among friends for being the "uptight" one who needs to loosen up a bit.

    A few good examples of inferior Pe in tv and film may shed a light... all of these are funny examples of when an IJ is stuck with 1 or more companions who pretty much run wild. It's a classic setup.

    Cameron from Ferris Beuhler's Day Off
    Anders from Workaholics
    Luke Wilson in Blue Streak
    Richard Dreyfuss in What About Bob
    Kenny Vs. Spenny
    Michael Cera in Superbad (McLovin is xNTP)

    etc.

    EDIT: oh and obviously The Odd Couple

  3. #13
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    INTPs have a definite taste for the visceral, lent by their auxiliary Ne. It usually manifests as somewhat rebellious - I'm going to break the rules of acceptable dress, I say shocking things, I'm gonna troll someone, etc. Indeed, the INTP has a "wild side" (or weird) that comes out at fairly often or constant intervals. They may be called "nerds," but they aren't nerds in the original sense of being too dry.

    The IxxJ has no taste for this kind of thing. They don't often do things people would consider wild or rebellious, unless they've had a lot to drink perhaps. They prefer to stay within the lines. They are often the butt of jokes among friends for being the "uptight" one who needs to loosen up a bit.

    A few good examples of inferior Pe in tv and film may shed a light... all of these are funny examples of when an IJ is stuck with 1 or more companions who pretty much run wild. It's a classic setup.

    Cameron from Ferris Beuhler's Day Off
    Anders from Workaholics
    Luke Wilson in Blue Streak
    Richard Dreyfuss in What About Bob
    Michael Cera in Superbad (McLovin is xNTP)

    etc.

    EDIT: oh and obviously The Odd Couple
    To add to this, a lot of those are good examples of tertiary temptation Fi. In Superbad, for instance, Cera is constantly complaining about the ethics of what is going on, yet he is still allowing himself to be involved. According to theory, he would have been better off to go with Te and not break the law or take advantage of a drunk girl. This would have been more "true to himself" but I think he would have been afraid that he wouldn't fit in.

    Kenny vs. Spenny is another perfect example. Spenny is obviously and INTJ and he is consistently harassed by Kenny because he is so uptight and has trouble taking things lightly. He continues to go along with it, though, complaining all the while about Kenny's terrible ethics. Another textbook display of tertiary Fi in action.

  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Yes - Ni dominants are ideologues, as was stated. It has nothing to do with their in-the-moment presence, they can be just as perceptive and aware as any type. Where they differ from other types (such as INTP and ISFP) is that they are deeply invested in their perceptions. They trust their mind first and foremost, exemplifying intuition in a classical sense to the utmost definition.
    I agree with you that Ni doms are deeply invested in their perceptions. With respect to in the moment presence, I can be very perceptive of other people - knowing what they are thinking when I'm talking to them. However, it is a very focused perception on particular things. Ni doms are not taking in as much information about as many things as a person strong in Se.

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I wholeheartedly disagree. I am horribly absentminded, once I forgot to bring paperwork for a meeting and when I went home to get it, I left my house again without taking the paperwork. I was halfway back to work when I realized it, and the whole trek back home and then back to work I was pouring sweat wondering what everyone thought of me. This is a facet of my character I am horribly ashamed of, though I still have no doubt I am some sort of ISTP. I've tested ENTP-INTP-ISTP from the beginning, and even after extensive prodding through functional descriptions I highly doubt I stray from the formula of Se or Ne in my upper stacking - yet the fact remains...

    Se-inferiority is not what is described in the video. What is described in the video is being human.
    It's an interesting observation you're making about other types being absent minded. Some types are known for being absent minded though. INTPs are known for being in that category. I think they tend towards being deep in thought and forget to do stuff. I have seen ISXJs be terribly absent minded when stressed. The Ni dom's absent mindedness might different. It is not just about forgetting to do something or forgetting that you had already gotten that coke out of the refrigerator and it's in front of you. When you lose the keys, you have no idea where they are because you weren't present in the moment when you put them down. You get your facts wrong and mix things up in your head. It's stuff like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I will have to watch other videos, but I still posit a closer form of ENFP over INFJ. Which would explain her relationship with an INTJ, really
    She is older. When people get older, they are increasingly attracted to people who have a more similar type. INTJ and INFJ share 3 of 4 letters, so it would be perfectly natural for an older INTJ and INFJ to be attracted to each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    INTPs have a definite taste for the visceral, lent by their auxiliary Ne. It usually manifests as somewhat rebellious - I'm going to break the rules of acceptable dress, I say shocking things, I'm gonna troll someone, etc. Indeed, the INTP has a "wild side" (or weird) that comes out at fairly often or constant intervals. They may be called "nerds," but they aren't nerds in the original sense of being too dry.

    The IxxJ has no taste for this kind of thing. They don't often do things people would consider wild or rebellious, unless they've had a lot to drink perhaps. They prefer to stay within the lines. They are often the butt of jokes among friends for being the "uptight" one who needs to loosen up a bit.
    The INTPs I know are not particularly rebellious at all. I would agree that IJ types are more uptight in general though.

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  5. #15
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    VJ seems ENFP to me, characterized by some of the "sillyness" in her writing (stuff that I don't see any INFJs doing, but I do see in many ENFPs), as well as the INTJ connection there seems to be (also typically of ENFP). I know that seems like flimsy evidence, but she just really doesn't strike me as anything I recognize from other INFJs, even of other "flavours" or ennegram types than me.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    When you lose the keys, you have no idea where they are because you weren't present in the moment when you put them down.

    Yeah, I've definitely identified this as my problem.

    As for the rest, I suppose we will have to remain in disagreement.

  7. #17
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I do that with things like keys as well. It worries me a bit.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Something about her husband doesn't ring true to INTJ for me, and their entire description of inferior Se isn't really the way I understand the inferior. I am rather disappointed they decided to describe inferior Se this flimsy way instead of really describing what it is. Also, Vicky is a very obvious Fe type to me, almost to the point where I'd put her as an Fe dominant because what you really see coming out from her is so much Fe energy all the time, not Ni. I bet a lot of money on that her husband is actually a Ti dominant type. If he truly were an INTJ, he would be turned off by his wife's constant Fe as is common with Te auxiliary types.

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  9. #19
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    By extension, Se does not equate to being "in the moment"
    Have to disagree with you on this one. When I am struck by inferior Se sneaking into my consciousness, what becomes obvious to me is my sudden and apparent lack over anything than the present moment and its experiences. I tend to be a long-term thinker and Ni operates in such a way that it is enough for me to see a person reaching for the coffee mug and I already visualize the person drinking coffee in my mind, but when I am struck by inferior Se, this perspective is clearly diminished in favor of enjoying the present moment (assuming it is a pleasurable experience). My otherwise focus on predicting actions or seeing actions before they happen doesn't disappear, but my conscious mind becomes far less occupied in studying these patterns over studying what is going on right now which would from an Se perspective, be the ability to see the person moving the hand towards the mug. It is the action itself that is perceived, rather than its implications or intent. Case in point, I was riding on my dad's snow scooter together with him earlier this year and inferior Se is akin to "we are moving forward" and all I could think of is how I wanted to us drive faster regardless of its potential dangers. It momentarily struck me that we could hit a tree in the process but at that moment in time I just didn't care. So what if we hit a tree? At least this present moment is fun as hell and would be even better if we just drove faster.

    Se is very much attuned to the present moment in such a sense. Not only does Se see that which is going on right now, but it also sees the shapes, colors, takes in the smells, etc. If anything, "spider-sense" is more likely to be intuition of some kind.

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  10. #20
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Introverted intuitives grow vested as subjective ideologues. They find external confirmation to their beliefs to be troubling, they merely require they themselves can see the connections behind their sensory experience and this is self-satisfactory.
    Yer confusing archaic extroverted sensing with dynamic introverted perceiving.

    That the person attends little to extroverted perceiving, has a distaste for it in general, and controls it poorly has nothing at all to do with whether or not it occurs for them.
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