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INFJs in Relationships

Ene

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Hey Mane,

I'm kind of lost in the discussion because I only just now came into it and am playing "catch-up." However, I will make my best attempt at a reply. I do agree with much of what Cafe says.

- a notion which i found very foreign - was that a thought can be ugly.

I don't know if I'd say that my thoughts are beautiful or ugly so much as they are possible results, some desirable, some not [I suppose that could be considered beautiful or ugly, beautiful being an outcome that is pleasing and ugly being one that is messy]. Some thoughts, if followed and brought into the world as actions or words, could lead to great results. Some if followed, could be devastating. Ever watch Sherlock Holmes with Robert Downey Jr.? On the movie Holmes always sees a multitude of possiblities before making any action. That is very much like how my brain works, except not as elaborate as on the movie. In any given circumstance, I consider what reprocussions will occur as a result of anything I do or say. I actually visualize them occuring and then decide whether it's worth the risk or not and if there's a loss involved, whether it's worth the loss or not. In a way, it is like seeing the future, or rather, multiple possibilities of futures. Thoughts are like portals to possibilities, things that either will become reality or not become reality, based upon whether I decide to go down a paticular thought path or not. No thought exists in isolation. Everyone of them is connected to other ones.

before that i considered some thoughts awesome and even beautiful, other thoughts can be boring or uninspiring, other thoughts can be worrying, but... i've never quite considered that thoughts can be judged as ugly or distasteful or.. i am trying to think of a better term here, "not worth thinking" ? an "unwelcomed thought"? anyway....

I do control my thoughts. I have constant ongoing internal conversations happening. I take every thought captive and examine it. If it has the potential to be something worthwhile, I let it breathe, and explore it. If it's just going to lead to a dead end and cause a lot of trouble, then I put it on a backburner [or as someone said, "In a box."] I put lots of thoughts on the backburner, or rather file them away for another date when they might prove useful.

in certain situations, it seems like INFJs are able to judge a thought prior to actually thinking it, and choose to not think it at all.

Yeah, I'd say that's very close to accurate. But the judging happens not prior to the thought but immediately upon it entering my mind. At that very instant, I decide whether it lives, dies or gets put on the back burner.

so let's say A leads to B which implies C
but C is judged as ugly (a thought one desires to not think?)...
and so they thus choose to not go from A to B at all.

Yes, depending on what the thought is...sometimes, it just undergoes reconstructive surgery. Remember, Ni is all about possibilities. If A is going to lead to C and C is going to yeild hazardous results then perhaps a detour can be arranged between A and B or B and C. In other words, I think about my thoughts and where they will lead and if the end result looks bleak, I may start looking for alterations, but still, there are times that when YES...C looks so bad that I just won't go there and totally banish its existence or possibility.

i say "prior" here with a certain reservations regarding a leap of assumptions - i can say that at least it looks from the outside like you have never thought the actual thought, never uttered it in full within your own minds, and instead choose to put a lock on it or walk around it... it's sort of like the opposite phenomena to what described in the video's bit about inferior Se. it's as if your mind is capable of walking around your own eggshells. like there are situations things are on the tip of your tongue but you won't say them, you seem to have situations where something is on the tip of your mind, but you won't think it.

Yes, that is a great description. There are lots of things I think but don't say, and lots of thoughts that start to be born but don't get to be, because I internally say, "No. That thought will screw up my life or someone else's because I know where it will lead."

On a side note, I'd like to say that sometimes, I will mull a thought in my head for weeks, or months or even a few years, before I actually say anything about it or act on it. At other times, I will keep the thoughts secret and build an entire plan before I reveal it to anyone. I carry entire novels in my head before I type them and songs before I write them. On the other hand, I'm quick to recognize and seize an opportunity. In these cases I have to make those thought judgements very quickly and I don't have days or weeks to mull them over.
 

Fidelia

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Ene's post resonates completely with me. I think it's important to note that there are a lot of thoughts that do get put on the backburner until there is emotional energy to deal with them, until they become useful or productive, until more information is gathered, until they are not so raw, until I have more perspective etc. So what may look like total avoidance to you is not always avoidance, so much as waiting for a time when it can be properly addressed because it is so important. Unfortunately, Ni is such that the person themselves rarely knows when exactly that will happen, so it's hard to give someone else a timeline. It's just like all the pieces fall together one day and the person is ready to address that particular idea or issue.

I do know that the more information to process or subjective emotional turmoil that gets in the way, the longer it will take to get to the point of dealing with it, which I have found can be extremely frustrating for ENXP types, who prefer to get things hashed out sooner. Sometimes it feels like they are following me into the back rooms of my mind, even after I've explained that doing so will keep on bogging down the whole process and they just need to give me a little time if they want to expedite action. The more they push, the blunter I'll get with them (which has on here strangely ended up with them feeling hurt by me when I was only feeling annoyed with them and thought I was giving very clear "back off for a bit and all will be well" statements. I found after the fact that they were clear to the Ni-Fe crowd, but to not to the NFPs in that conversation - or at least they felt the statements were unfair and exclusive, so they chose to ignore them).

STJs hate the feeling of uncertainty and would rather make a decision and stick to it (even if in retrospect it wasn't the best) rather than feel uncertain. I am quite the opposite. I don't like uncertainty either, but rushing through the process makes me feel even more unstable. I need time to make sense of it all and choose a course of action that makes some sense. I need time to resolve the things that don't sit right, build an internal framework that holds together and decide if I'm being mostly objective or mostly subjective, before I complicate everything with the millions of possibilities that another person in the mix introduces. I think because Ni spins out into so many branches, I need time to prune my own branches before looking at the possible additional possibilities introduced by someone else. The more emotionally painful it is to look at the situation or the more options that are there to sort through, the longer it's going to take. I'm best left to myself during that time, or be allowed to clarify an uncertain point with someone and use the new information to finish ruminating.

One thing I learned from one of these threads was that often Ne users are likely to look at all the parts that are assembled and decide what can be built out of it, while Ni users are likely to envision what it is that they want to build and then sort through the parts for what will be useful to them. I think that helps to explain why Ne users feel it detrimental and unnecessary to rule out information or pare down possibilities, while Ni users find it essential. If the Ni user has someone constantly suggesting new things they they could build, it's going to hamper the process of getting on with making the thing that needs to be made. Ni needs some time alone to decide what machine will best serve the task at hand and then time to see if they have what they need to do so (and make up a list of what they need the other person's help with). Ne users are going at it from the opposite end, so of course that is going to look constricting and backwards to them.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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Ene's post resonates completely with me. I think it's important to note that there are a lot of thoughts that do get put on the backburner until there is emotional energy to deal with them, until they become useful or productive, until more information is gathered, until they are not so raw, until I have more perspective etc. So what may look like total avoidance to you is not always avoidance, so much as waiting for a time when it can be properly addressed because it is so important. Unfortunately, Ni is such that the person themselves rarely knows when exactly that will happen, so it's hard to give someone else a timeline. It's just like all the pieces fall together one day and the person is ready to address that particular idea or issue.
i can relate to this part. The process for me if I'm facing emotional turmoil is to become overwhelmed by a tidal wave of external information that is subtle, complex emotional dynamics, or if it is an internal issue, to first become overwhelmed and then my circuits blow and I become numb. At that point the negative thoughts leave me until I have more energy to process them, and I think my subconscious is always processing.


One thing I learned from one of these threads was that often Ne users are likely to look at all the parts that are assembled and decide what can be built out of it, while Ni users are likely to envision what it is that they want to build and then sort through the parts for what will be useful to them. I think that helps to explain why Ne users feel it detrimental and unnecessary to rule out information or pare down possibilities, while Ni users find it essential. If the Ni user has someone constantly suggesting new things they they could build, it's going to hamper the process of getting on with making the thing that needs to be made. Ni needs some time alone to decide what machine will best serve the task at hand and then time to see if they have what they need to do so (and make up a list of what they need the other person's help with). Ne users are going at it from the opposite end, so of course that is going to look constricting and backwards to them.
This aspect that many agree upon is a little different from how I process information. I tend to be a data hoarder inside which is why I have to have a lot of time to introvert and make sense of it. I am always internally building, working on the puzzle, working out several hypotheses for every question, and try to find the core concepts to build information like a tree. Information that does not fit with my internal model is saved aside for later because I believe that everything means something. Even lies are relavent because there is a reason it was spoken. There will always be some place that everything will connect to eventually. I just know that this aspect of my thinking can frustrate pure logic types because it is like holding onto garbage data.

I will add though, that when learning something new, if there is not some sort of framework to place the details in, then I do tend to forget that data. I don't want to forget it, but if my mind can only hold X amount, it will be the parts that fit within a system.

So I guess the question confuses me a bit because I am definitely a systems thinker, but ideally I would like to build systems that account for everything and so I desire to hold onto all data because it fits someplace, but where? It could take more than a lifetime to answer that.
 

Fidelia

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I don't know if what we are saying is incompatible, fia. I think very similarly to what you are describing, and there are rarely thoughts or information that I throw out completely. I think Z Buck's description of mental sticky notes is very apt - then when enough of them accumulate, usually I start noticing some kind off pattern or commonality that helps make sense of those details that have been gathered.

What I was referring to was more that most of my interactions with other people have a goal. Similarly it drives me nuts when I cannot figure out what the other person's goal in communicating is, because I have no way to measure whether I'm being of service or if I'm hindering the process. I'm not likely to throw random information in my head out there just to see if it might be useful or lead somewhere, in the same way as Ne users do.

However, I do look to develop overarching frameworks to hang new information on and I assemble that framework very slowly, testing it all the time for soundness in many different situations before really adopting it. I'm happy to recategorize information as new details come to light, but once the main structural framework is in place, I need some convincing to really dismantle it and start the process of organizing my information all over again. That can make me look stubborn, but really I'm a lot more open than it may outwardly appear. I felt similarly to umlauu that while we look unflexy outwardly, we actually are fairly inwardly flexible in some ways, while the opposite types appear pretty open on the outside, but you are more likely to hit internal bedrock.
 

cafe

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I would go with thoughts being or feeling destructive rather than ugly, FWIW.
 

hazelsees

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oh, just speculation, i wasn't sure about that part or how that works exactly, if at all. just trying to put two and two together here, thinking out loud...

see one of the concepts introduced to me by INFJs and reaffirmed throughout getting familiar with more here - a notion which i found very foreign - was that a thought can be ugly. before that i considered some thoughts awesome and even beautiful, other thoughts can be boring or uninspiring, other thoughts can be worrying, but... i've never quite considered that thoughts can be judged as ugly or distasteful or.. i am trying to think of a better term here, "not worth thinking" ? an "unwelcomed thought"? anyway....

in certain situations, it seems like INFJs are able to judge a thought prior to actually thinking it, and choose to not think it at all.

so let's say A leads to B which implies C
but C is judged as ugly (a thought one desires to not think?)...
and so they thus choose to not go from A to B at all.

it's as if the thought was discontinued at A on the basis of the implications of C.

i say "prior" here with a certain reservations regarding a leap of assumptions - i can say that at least it looks from the outside like you have never thought the actual thought, never uttered it in full within your own minds, and instead choose to put a lock on it or walk around it... it's sort of like the opposite phenomena to what described in the video's bit about inferior Se. it's as if your mind is capable of walking around your own eggshells. like there are situations things are on the tip of your tongue but you won't say them, you seem to have situations where something is on the tip of your mind, but you won't think it.

Yes! You explained this so well...and it's very perceptive of you to even recognize this in other people. How did you do that? Very curious. But, at the same time, I assumed (almost) everyone does this as well until very recently. My ENFP supervisor and I were just talking about it...

There are a variety of reasons for doing this (what are we calling It?), but I don't feel comfortable sharing them. But like someone said--Café maybe?--those pre-thoughts do not really ever go away.
 

hazelsees

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You're not alone. I have done this too. What's worse is I have been known to tell the other person there is something wrong with the way they interpreted my actions and that there is no reason why they should feel the way they feel. I have even gone as far as to tell them if they were offended they are being to sensitive and if they are hurt it's there own fault. Up until now I never knew why I did that. After reading this I would defiantly say it's because I am so careful not to do it. I feel like I put so much thought into it that if they somehow still manage to take it the wrong way it's by their own sensitivity not by my miscalculation. I know now that is wrong and I feel horrible about it :cry:

That's it. If you're like me, you try so hard to be perfect and careful with other people. When you do mess up, it's painful to admit to it. It's brutal even. Then you try to fool yourself and them by "making" it the other person's fault. Then it can become an even bigger deal, complicated and ugly--when it would have been better to recognize and accept the failure at the beginning and to simply apologize.

...and I placate myself with "I do so much good and so many nice things. This one awful thing doesn't mean anything--in fact, it's probably the other party's fault."

I'm so far behind here. Everyone is posting interesting stuff.
 

iNtrovert

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] do you identify with what locking the ugly or undesired thought on the horizon in a box before thinking it?

humm....to be honest I really cant think of a time where I have done that off hand but I will say I shut thoughts on an off. Over time I feel like I destroy that thought process I find unfavorable. For example gossip. I'm just a really quite person. Most people at work or at school just assume I can't hear them and they speak candidly in front of me. I mean I knew about teen pregnancies/abortions impending divorces mental issues and other things I had no business knowing. I often ended up holding that information against them in everyday interactions and judging them. Some one would bring up the person in question and my mind would automatically go there making all these judgments of disapproval ect. That was problematic for me so I needed cut off the information I knew. It was almost like i needed to associate them with something else. I also found myself doing this with people I desperately wanted to forgive. Idk I guess I used it to override my affinity to holding grudges. I would just play the offense over and over in my mind until I can rationalize my way around my anger(normally means make it my fault some how). I only do that when I have already idealized the person or my relationship with them so much that cutting them off is more painful than dealing with what they did.
 

Southern Kross

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as with all types, when the child function is threatened, the INFJ can go into meltdown. the INFJ's child function is introverted thinking, an evaluation of personal conduct based social norms and morals. B]most of the time INFJs can be incredibly sensitive to the emotional lives of others[/B], so it can be really debilitating to realize they have offended someone. having spent so much time [/B[]writing that Ti model of how to respect and honor others, the realization that they got it wrong can be a crippling upfront to the INFJs basic need to be people-competent. this can be so mortifying that the INFJ may find it difficult to apologize, preferring to reauthor the event to highlight or accentuate all the other good things they have done, hoping the offense is drowned out of contention.

Wow. Read through the transcript and this stood out. This is so me, although it makes me feel very ashamed. But...I'm trying to better myself so admitting it here--to strangers--is a first step, right? Luckily, this has only happened a handful of times. I hate this about myself.

Yeah, that part stood out as the most interesting observation to me. It seems like something worth exploring more at some point. I do think NFJs are prone to "reauthoring" (such a good word!), I just didn't think of it as an attempt to reduce the offence given. It seemed to me to be an effort to deflect personal blame.

Something for me to think about...

oh, just speculation, i wasn't sure about that part or how that works exactly, if at all. just trying to put two and two together here, thinking out loud...

see one of the concepts introduced to me by INFJs and reaffirmed throughout getting familiar with more here - a notion which i found very foreign - was that a thought can be ugly. before that i considered some thoughts awesome and even beautiful, other thoughts can be boring or uninspiring, other thoughts can be worrying, but... i've never quite considered that thoughts can be judged as ugly or distasteful or.. i am trying to think of a better term here, "not worth thinking" ? an "unwelcomed thought"? anyway....

in certain situations, it seems like INFJs are able to judge a thought prior to actually thinking it, and choose to not think it at all.

so let's say A leads to B which implies C
but C is judged as ugly (a thought one desires to not think?)...
and so they thus choose to not go from A to B at all.

it's as if the thought was discontinued at A on the basis of the implications of C.

i say "prior" here with a certain reservations regarding a leap of assumptions - i can say that at least it looks from the outside like you have never thought the actual thought, never uttered it in full within your own minds, and instead choose to put a lock on it or walk around it... it's sort of like the opposite phenomena to what described in the video's bit about inferior Se. it's as if your mind is capable of walking around your own eggshells. like there are situations things are on the tip of your tongue but you won't say them, you seem to have situations where something is on the tip of your mind, but you won't think it.

Maybe like you can kind of see it in the distance and get a vague idea what's up ahead and instead of going in for a closer look, you think "That does not look good. I can't see anything good coming out of going there." And then just go someplace else. I suppose part of the brain kinda goes there but you don't let yourself dwell on it or explore it and if it tries, you redirect it.

I would imagine the way you would decide it doesn't look like a good place to go would be based on past experiences and observations. My brain is always projecting where things are going to end up if things continue on their current path or where I'd like to see things going and what I need to do in order to get from point A to point B or what improvements I would make if I did a particular thing again. It won't really stay in the present unless I make it and I can only do that so long, so I don't even have to try to see what I think is going to happen. It just sort of does it on it's own, although working out alternative scenarios and planning takes actual focus and effort.

I don't know if that's how it works for all INFJs or if it's an INFJ specific thing or if that helps at all.
Yeah, this is the sort of thing I was getting at in the INFJ vs INFP thread (I still don't know who won that fight. No KO blow yet :D ). This is where I think the foreseeing aspect of Ni is actually much more complex and revealing than most people realise (as I have learned). Feel free to correct me if I get things wrong BTW.

It seems the INFJ sees the world as a series of pathways. They foresee where each path is leading (it might be very short, with almost immediate results, or it may be more long-term) and make a choice as to which one to walk down. They see the choice as an active one and appear to have more capability than most types (certainly a hell of a lot more than me ;) ) to control the direction they travel. And that 'direction' does not merely refer to their actions, behaviour and beliefs, but in their thoughts as well. What I was trying to convey in the other thread was, they don't seem to believe in mistakes in terms of (interpersonal or intra-personal) outcomes; to them it's just a failure to either comprehend the chosen path, or to choose the correct path in the first place (?). To the INFJ, you can't walk down a path, knowing where it leads, and then complain about the scenery when you get to the end. So for example, to the INFJ if you don't want to experience that ugly thought or feeling, don't go there.

This is a really fascinating quality. To help put it in perspective, it's so different to my own personal version of 'introspective self-possession', so to speak. I can deal with feelings and thoughts after the fact, redirecting them where I need them to go, but I can't pre-empt their existence*. I have no idea how a person can achieve that. So much of my life is reacting to what happens or what I feel, then going about shaping things. I can foresee how I or others might feel or react to a situation but it is a vague imaginary construct (based on universal truth, and experience, projected forward), not a clear vision with distinct choices laid out in front of me. The world must be an orderly place to INFJs.

*This is perhaps a source of some miscommunication with NPs because we can't pre-empt thoughts/feelings, we aren't as capable of consciously controlling our interpersonal behaviour, and we don't even travel in set pathways. If we inadvertently wander onto a (INFJ-style) path, we might follow it with no idea where it leads.

I should try to find links to some research that shows people make decisions unconsciously before they are aware of them, so I'm not certain how that relates.
A very telling statement. :D

As an aside: I think people are mix of unconscious and conscious decision making. Je+Pi users seem to lean towards the belief that most behaviour is conscious and Ji+Pe seem to think it is mostly unconscious. I definitely adhere to the latter and sometimes have to remind myself that this is not always so.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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A very telling statement. :D

As an aside: I think people are mix of unconscious and conscious decision making. Je+Pi users seem to lean towards the belief that most behaviour is conscious and Ji+Pe seem to think it is mostly unconscious. I definitely adhere to the latter and sometimes have to remind myself that this is not always so.
Ha! I guess that would apply to all people, and I was trying just to present it without communicating any specifics. If I were to say my best hypothesis - it is that I don't think "INFJs" filter ideas unconsciously any more than any other type. I didn't want to be confrontational or certain about it because I don't have enough enough information to present it as a solid idea. I don't know if that is helpful. I wasn't dismissing that it happens, I was just being accommodating and uncertain in my communication.
 

Southern Kross

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Ha! I guess that would apply to all people, and I was trying just to present it without communicating any specifics. If I were to say my best hypothesis - it is that I don't think "INFJs" filter ideas unconsciously any more than any other type. I didn't want to be confrontational or certain about it because I don't have enough enough information to present it as a solid idea. I don't know if that is helpful. I wasn't dismissing that it happens, I was just being accommodating and uncertain in my communication.
Stop apologising, INFJ!

I'm not even offended.

:D
 

Fidelia

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I think maybe part of it is that INFJs tend to do their filtering at the front end: with ideas, with who they welcome into their inner circle, with trying to predict where paths, relationships or feelings will take them. That way, once the work is done, they can relax a bit and let their guard down. (The downside is that if they become close to someone who later proves untrustworthy, it takes a long time for the INFJ to really be willing to believe that that is truly the case and the person has the capability to really mess with the INFJ first). I would by far like to do proactive, preventative work than try to clean up an unnecessary mess after the fact. I'd liken it to trying to getting grape juice out of a white carpet - much easier to set the glass where it won't get knocked over than invest in stain remover. I think that is in part for me, not only a logical decision, but it also is because I know that I have a much harder time processing difficult things and I find it hard to do without the help of various other people.

In contrast, I think that some other types open the floodgates at the beginning and only close them as necessary after the fact. The things that allows that system to work is that I believe they are more self-sufficient during the process of sorting out their feelings about what happened and getting on with things.

It was surprising to me to finally realize a few years ago that a lot of people don't think in terms of where each pathway leads to. To me it is like breathing. I would never think to verbalize that because it is so much a part of the landscape for me and I sometimes have thought that people were willfully being obtuse by acting like they couldn't have guessed what would happen next. Since being here, I've learned that that isn't the case and also seen both the benefits as well as downsides of that kind of orientation and approach to the world.
 

Southern Kross

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I think maybe part of it is that INFJs tend to do their filtering at the front end: with ideas, with who they welcome into their inner circle, with trying to predict where paths, relationships or feelings will take them. That way, once the work is done, they can relax a bit and let their guard down. (The downside is that if they become close to someone who later proves untrustworthy, it takes a long time for the INFJ to really be willing to believe that that is truly the case and the person has the capability to really mess with the INFJ first). I would by far like to do proactive, preventative work than try to clean up an unnecessary mess after the fact. I'd liken it to trying to getting grape juice out of a white carpet - much easier to set the glass where it won't get knocked over than invest in stain remover. I think that is in part for me, not only a logical decision, but it also is because I know that I have a much harder time processing difficult things and I find it hard to do without the help of various other people.

In contrast, I think that some other types open the floodgates at the beginning and only close them as necessary after the fact. The things that allows that system to work is that I believe they are more self-sufficient during the process of sorting out their feelings about what happened and getting on with things.
Yeah, this is basically what I was getting at. :yes:

It was surprising to me to finally realize a few years ago that a lot of people don't think in terms of where each pathway leads to. To me it is like breathing. I would never think to verbalize that because it is so much a part of the landscape for me and I sometimes have thought that people were willfully being obtuse by acting like they couldn't have guessed what would happen next. Since being here, I've learned that that isn't the case and also seen both the benefits as well as downsides of that kind of orientation and approach to the world.
That's the hard thing though, right? Working out how the hell someone could not think about things in the same way. It's all very well to talk about differences in cognitive functions in theory, but it is very bizarre when it sinks in how deep those differences go in actuality. Those deep distinctions are hard to comprehend. :shock:

I was going to ask though, what about the INFJ wariness of emotions? You've mentioned before that you are uncertain about your feelings and what they're telling you. Do you find emotions too messy to attribute clear cause and effect to, and consequently the 'pathways' don't reveal themselves to you as easily? Is this partly why you might avoid, what [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION] called, "ugly thoughts"?
 

Fidelia

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INFJ
I wouldn't say that I'm wary of my emotions. It's more that I feel they are transient and so I don't attach much significance or personal identity to them.

I sometimes find though that they sneak up on me or build and I don't always realize how much something is bothering me until the dam breaks. This usually is after there are several incidents that bothered me, but I didn't have an explanation for why they did, or a larger pattern that they fit into. When that pattern finally emerges, that's usually when the negative emotion washes over in a wave. Usually it's a very small detail that is the final straw that breaks the camel's back. Depending on how the person decided to respond in the previous number of unexplained, but negative incidents, it may never advance to that state. That's why it's very hard for me to know if something is big enough to bring up or if it is just me on that day, or if it just an isolated incident, or if I am looking at things incorrectly, or if it something that is of significance but I don't know what the significance is yet, even though it creates a certain kind of gut feeling etc. By the time it does become clear, usually I feel upset enough that I don't want to address it in the moment, or else the emotions overflow and I find myself extremely embarrassed at the lack of control and apologizing for my reaction, even as the situation still remains unresolved.

I do find it unsettling when I can't figure out why something makes me feel a certain way. I find tremendous emotional relief once I can finally figure out what has triggered that feeling and that it's a valid thing or even once I can explain where a certain behaviour in someone else is stemming from. I would prefer direct information, as I care about accuracy, but Ni possibilities running amuck (sp) in the absence of real information are too terrible for me to bear and so I need at least a working hypothesis to start from. (I realize this is less than ideal, as other types of course aren't going to think the way I do, so I'm likely to be incorrect in my assumptions and probably annoy them terribly in the process for my presumption).

I see negative feelings as an indicator that something needs to be looked at. When the problem is addressed, or time has passed and objectivity is regained, or the puzzle is solved, then the negative emotion naturally goes away. Perhaps that even explains in part some reframing of the situation after the fact. It is an attempt at resolving the problem in one's own head if a proper kind of resolution can't be found elsewhere.

I think the reason for reframing after the fact could be that little details in themselves aren't a big deal until suddenly Ni connects a bunch of niggling details into a larger overall emerging pattern of behaviour in the other person and then it's easy to feel foolish and resentful for allowing oneself to put up with it that long (especially if it was obvious to onlookers).

Yes, I would say that emotions create noise that makes it distracting and hard for me to get on with the business of problem solving. I don't find them useful in and of themselves and sometimes I find that it is not immediate clear whether I feel that way because I am tired, because I am being unreasonable, because the other person is being unreasonable, whether there are outside factors I haven't considered or something else. I usually need to come up with some kind of hypothesis after I've had time to let things settle a bit, and then bounce it off of one or two trusted people privately to see if it holds any water.

I think maybe avoiding ugly thoughts is more a matter of avoiding the incredible amount of emotional energy and processing time taken up with dealing with those thoughts. It's kind of like purposely downloading a very large and memory consuming computer program right at a time when you also need to be actively using several programs. It just bogs the whole system down and would work better if you wait until you know you won't need the computer for a bit, so that it doesn't interfere with the rest of the work that needs to be accomplished.
 

21%

You have a choice!
Joined
May 15, 2009
Messages
3,224
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I identify a lot with everything [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION] said.
 

hazelsees

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2013
Messages
124
MBTI Type
INFJ
it is, feedback from others is welcomed.



so... what happens when someone else opens the box?

Hi Mane.
In my mind, I'm comparing the "pre-thought" to the "box"--to see if they are actually the same thing. They might be different things. The box is the thing that is being avoided, right? And the pre-thought is almost thinking about what is in the box, but not actually going there. An awareness that the box exists. (Sorry, it's a bit confusing and everyone's posts are so awesome and I need to think on each word in each post and that's not going to happen anytime soon. Typing it out helps because things are so web-y in my mind.)

If someone opens the box, it causes panic.
If it's by accident and the other party just happens to know about the box too, and opens it up--I panic inside and try to shut it back down as quickly and kindly as possible.
If someone charges ahead because 1. They are being butts and know that I want it to stay shut or 2. they really want to open the box for some other less evil reason or 3. they think opening the box would be a healing thing -- it's all the same. That's when the crazy comes out. Depending on how forceful the other party, the crazy can be a varying degrees. It's all about getting away from them and the box.
 

Fidelia

Iron Maiden
Staff member
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
14,497
MBTI Type
INFJ
Something else I was just thinking about. I have monthly concerts for my students to participate in. It is a very valuable time, not only for kids to practice leadership skills, get repertoire together as a group, get to know one another in a relaxed and non-competetive environment, and involve the audience and their family in day, but it serves as a huge motivator for the kids' practice, and also allows parents to swap ideas and talk. This month, some of the most experienced players have bailed for various reasons. It is indeed a busy time of year, but the reasons for missing are dumb ones, and are mostly due to parents' lack of prioritizing, rather than the children.

I felt really demoralized and am frustrated at some of the parents who don't understand that this isn't really about violin at all, but rather about developing character, confidence and communication skills and the program I offer affects all areas of life, rather than being an activity where you show off your skills and then leave.

As I have been wrestling with how to set things up for next year, I've come to a few conclusions and also had a chance to bounce some ideas of my mother to figure out just why I felt so upset initially. Through doing that, I came to some realizations and developed a plan for what I was going to do. I also made the necessary adjustments in my head for a concert with a different collection of kids and what we would do for repertoire. Now, while the situation hasn't changed, and I still feel that I need to have a discussion with those parents if we are going to continue next year, I no longer feel upset. If I can find a way to understand the situation or deal with it, it no longer upsets me. If it's okay in my head, then it's okay, whether or not the situation is fixed.

I think this is both a good and a bad quality. In some ways, it allows INFJs to be much more patient with others and to see things from multiple perspectives. At it's worst, it means that the INFJ either puts up with far too much before dealing with the problem and then when there is too much emotional noise, it means that the INFJ either has to cut the person off for awhile until things quiet down or else they re-write the narrative in their head a little bit in the light of this new information to make sense of it and cope with the situation. (I don't mean make up, but perhaps put different perspective on it than before).

ESTJs cannot abide being stuck in a holding pattern of inaction. For me, I cannot abide being stuck in a holding pattern of flux about what I think about the situation. I have to be able to draw some kind of conclusion, even if it a temporary one, so that the tension in my head can be released. I suppose both of those traits are outgrowths of extraverted functions (ESTJ - Te), (INFJ-Fe?).

A lot of things that would not normally be huge issues in and of themselves become a big deal when I realize that they are indicative of a larger problem. Therefore, it may seem sometimes like all is going along with with the INFJ and then all the sudden one small thing happens and it appears to be a complete dealbreaker, with no notice!!! In reality, those other things were also issues along the way, but depending on how the other person chooses to respond to them, the little things' larger meaning may appear to be much different to the INFJ. That's why one little thing can end up becoming a huge issue in a short amount of time.
 

Ene

Active member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
3,574
MBTI Type
iNfj
Enneagram
5w4
INFJ's sound like monsters.

I'm staying away! :horror:

Well, I was called a monster TWO times this week! But it's okay because one party said I was a "monster with a paint brush" and another said I was just an ordinary "Cookie Monster." So, thank you, AA. I LOVE being a monster! I'm gonna OWN it. [snaps fingers and twists all about chanting, monster, monster, monster while visions of Where the Wild Things are dance through my head.]
 

cafe

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
9,827
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
9w1
The Monster at the End of this Book was one of my favorite things to read to my kids. :wubbie:
 
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