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  1. #61
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Hey Mane,

    I'm kind of lost in the discussion because I only just now came into it and am playing "catch-up." However, I will make my best attempt at a reply. I do agree with much of what Cafe says.

    - a notion which i found very foreign - was that a thought can be ugly.
    I don't know if I'd say that my thoughts are beautiful or ugly so much as they are possible results, some desirable, some not [I suppose that could be considered beautiful or ugly, beautiful being an outcome that is pleasing and ugly being one that is messy]. Some thoughts, if followed and brought into the world as actions or words, could lead to great results. Some if followed, could be devastating. Ever watch Sherlock Holmes with Robert Downey Jr.? On the movie Holmes always sees a multitude of possiblities before making any action. That is very much like how my brain works, except not as elaborate as on the movie. In any given circumstance, I consider what reprocussions will occur as a result of anything I do or say. I actually visualize them occuring and then decide whether it's worth the risk or not and if there's a loss involved, whether it's worth the loss or not. In a way, it is like seeing the future, or rather, multiple possibilities of futures. Thoughts are like portals to possibilities, things that either will become reality or not become reality, based upon whether I decide to go down a paticular thought path or not. No thought exists in isolation. Everyone of them is connected to other ones.

    before that i considered some thoughts awesome and even beautiful, other thoughts can be boring or uninspiring, other thoughts can be worrying, but... i've never quite considered that thoughts can be judged as ugly or distasteful or.. i am trying to think of a better term here, "not worth thinking" ? an "unwelcomed thought"? anyway....
    I do control my thoughts. I have constant ongoing internal conversations happening. I take every thought captive and examine it. If it has the potential to be something worthwhile, I let it breathe, and explore it. If it's just going to lead to a dead end and cause a lot of trouble, then I put it on a backburner [or as someone said, "In a box."] I put lots of thoughts on the backburner, or rather file them away for another date when they might prove useful.

    in certain situations, it seems like INFJs are able to judge a thought prior to actually thinking it, and choose to not think it at all.
    Yeah, I'd say that's very close to accurate. But the judging happens not prior to the thought but immediately upon it entering my mind. At that very instant, I decide whether it lives, dies or gets put on the back burner.

    so let's say A leads to B which implies C
    but C is judged as ugly (a thought one desires to not think?)...
    and so they thus choose to not go from A to B at all.
    Yes, depending on what the thought is...sometimes, it just undergoes reconstructive surgery. Remember, Ni is all about possibilities. If A is going to lead to C and C is going to yeild hazardous results then perhaps a detour can be arranged between A and B or B and C. In other words, I think about my thoughts and where they will lead and if the end result looks bleak, I may start looking for alterations, but still, there are times that when YES...C looks so bad that I just won't go there and totally banish its existence or possibility.

    i say "prior" here with a certain reservations regarding a leap of assumptions - i can say that at least it looks from the outside like you have never thought the actual thought, never uttered it in full within your own minds, and instead choose to put a lock on it or walk around it... it's sort of like the opposite phenomena to what described in the video's bit about inferior Se. it's as if your mind is capable of walking around your own eggshells. like there are situations things are on the tip of your tongue but you won't say them, you seem to have situations where something is on the tip of your mind, but you won't think it.
    Yes, that is a great description. There are lots of things I think but don't say, and lots of thoughts that start to be born but don't get to be, because I internally say, "No. That thought will screw up my life or someone else's because I know where it will lead."

    On a side note, I'd like to say that sometimes, I will mull a thought in my head for weeks, or months or even a few years, before I actually say anything about it or act on it. At other times, I will keep the thoughts secret and build an entire plan before I reveal it to anyone. I carry entire novels in my head before I type them and songs before I write them. On the other hand, I'm quick to recognize and seize an opportunity. In these cases I have to make those thought judgements very quickly and I don't have days or weeks to mull them over.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #62
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Ene's post resonates completely with me. I think it's important to note that there are a lot of thoughts that do get put on the backburner until there is emotional energy to deal with them, until they become useful or productive, until more information is gathered, until they are not so raw, until I have more perspective etc. So what may look like total avoidance to you is not always avoidance, so much as waiting for a time when it can be properly addressed because it is so important. Unfortunately, Ni is such that the person themselves rarely knows when exactly that will happen, so it's hard to give someone else a timeline. It's just like all the pieces fall together one day and the person is ready to address that particular idea or issue.

    I do know that the more information to process or subjective emotional turmoil that gets in the way, the longer it will take to get to the point of dealing with it, which I have found can be extremely frustrating for ENXP types, who prefer to get things hashed out sooner. Sometimes it feels like they are following me into the back rooms of my mind, even after I've explained that doing so will keep on bogging down the whole process and they just need to give me a little time if they want to expedite action. The more they push, the blunter I'll get with them (which has on here strangely ended up with them feeling hurt by me when I was only feeling annoyed with them and thought I was giving very clear "back off for a bit and all will be well" statements. I found after the fact that they were clear to the Ni-Fe crowd, but to not to the NFPs in that conversation - or at least they felt the statements were unfair and exclusive, so they chose to ignore them).

    STJs hate the feeling of uncertainty and would rather make a decision and stick to it (even if in retrospect it wasn't the best) rather than feel uncertain. I am quite the opposite. I don't like uncertainty either, but rushing through the process makes me feel even more unstable. I need time to make sense of it all and choose a course of action that makes some sense. I need time to resolve the things that don't sit right, build an internal framework that holds together and decide if I'm being mostly objective or mostly subjective, before I complicate everything with the millions of possibilities that another person in the mix introduces. I think because Ni spins out into so many branches, I need time to prune my own branches before looking at the possible additional possibilities introduced by someone else. The more emotionally painful it is to look at the situation or the more options that are there to sort through, the longer it's going to take. I'm best left to myself during that time, or be allowed to clarify an uncertain point with someone and use the new information to finish ruminating.

    One thing I learned from one of these threads was that often Ne users are likely to look at all the parts that are assembled and decide what can be built out of it, while Ni users are likely to envision what it is that they want to build and then sort through the parts for what will be useful to them. I think that helps to explain why Ne users feel it detrimental and unnecessary to rule out information or pare down possibilities, while Ni users find it essential. If the Ni user has someone constantly suggesting new things they they could build, it's going to hamper the process of getting on with making the thing that needs to be made. Ni needs some time alone to decide what machine will best serve the task at hand and then time to see if they have what they need to do so (and make up a list of what they need the other person's help with). Ne users are going at it from the opposite end, so of course that is going to look constricting and backwards to them.

  3. #63
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Ene's post resonates completely with me. I think it's important to note that there are a lot of thoughts that do get put on the backburner until there is emotional energy to deal with them, until they become useful or productive, until more information is gathered, until they are not so raw, until I have more perspective etc. So what may look like total avoidance to you is not always avoidance, so much as waiting for a time when it can be properly addressed because it is so important. Unfortunately, Ni is such that the person themselves rarely knows when exactly that will happen, so it's hard to give someone else a timeline. It's just like all the pieces fall together one day and the person is ready to address that particular idea or issue.
    i can relate to this part. The process for me if I'm facing emotional turmoil is to become overwhelmed by a tidal wave of external information that is subtle, complex emotional dynamics, or if it is an internal issue, to first become overwhelmed and then my circuits blow and I become numb. At that point the negative thoughts leave me until I have more energy to process them, and I think my subconscious is always processing.


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    One thing I learned from one of these threads was that often Ne users are likely to look at all the parts that are assembled and decide what can be built out of it, while Ni users are likely to envision what it is that they want to build and then sort through the parts for what will be useful to them. I think that helps to explain why Ne users feel it detrimental and unnecessary to rule out information or pare down possibilities, while Ni users find it essential. If the Ni user has someone constantly suggesting new things they they could build, it's going to hamper the process of getting on with making the thing that needs to be made. Ni needs some time alone to decide what machine will best serve the task at hand and then time to see if they have what they need to do so (and make up a list of what they need the other person's help with). Ne users are going at it from the opposite end, so of course that is going to look constricting and backwards to them.
    This aspect that many agree upon is a little different from how I process information. I tend to be a data hoarder inside which is why I have to have a lot of time to introvert and make sense of it. I am always internally building, working on the puzzle, working out several hypotheses for every question, and try to find the core concepts to build information like a tree. Information that does not fit with my internal model is saved aside for later because I believe that everything means something. Even lies are relavent because there is a reason it was spoken. There will always be some place that everything will connect to eventually. I just know that this aspect of my thinking can frustrate pure logic types because it is like holding onto garbage data.

    I will add though, that when learning something new, if there is not some sort of framework to place the details in, then I do tend to forget that data. I don't want to forget it, but if my mind can only hold X amount, it will be the parts that fit within a system.

    So I guess the question confuses me a bit because I am definitely a systems thinker, but ideally I would like to build systems that account for everything and so I desire to hold onto all data because it fits someplace, but where? It could take more than a lifetime to answer that.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  4. #64
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I don't know if what we are saying is incompatible, fia. I think very similarly to what you are describing, and there are rarely thoughts or information that I throw out completely. I think Z Buck's description of mental sticky notes is very apt - then when enough of them accumulate, usually I start noticing some kind off pattern or commonality that helps make sense of those details that have been gathered.

    What I was referring to was more that most of my interactions with other people have a goal. Similarly it drives me nuts when I cannot figure out what the other person's goal in communicating is, because I have no way to measure whether I'm being of service or if I'm hindering the process. I'm not likely to throw random information in my head out there just to see if it might be useful or lead somewhere, in the same way as Ne users do.

    However, I do look to develop overarching frameworks to hang new information on and I assemble that framework very slowly, testing it all the time for soundness in many different situations before really adopting it. I'm happy to recategorize information as new details come to light, but once the main structural framework is in place, I need some convincing to really dismantle it and start the process of organizing my information all over again. That can make me look stubborn, but really I'm a lot more open than it may outwardly appear. I felt similarly to umlauu that while we look unflexy outwardly, we actually are fairly inwardly flexible in some ways, while the opposite types appear pretty open on the outside, but you are more likely to hit internal bedrock.

  5. #65
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I would go with thoughts being or feeling destructive rather than ugly, FWIW.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #66
    Senior Member hazelsees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    oh, just speculation, i wasn't sure about that part or how that works exactly, if at all. just trying to put two and two together here, thinking out loud...

    see one of the concepts introduced to me by INFJs and reaffirmed throughout getting familiar with more here - a notion which i found very foreign - was that a thought can be ugly. before that i considered some thoughts awesome and even beautiful, other thoughts can be boring or uninspiring, other thoughts can be worrying, but... i've never quite considered that thoughts can be judged as ugly or distasteful or.. i am trying to think of a better term here, "not worth thinking" ? an "unwelcomed thought"? anyway....

    in certain situations, it seems like INFJs are able to judge a thought prior to actually thinking it, and choose to not think it at all.

    so let's say A leads to B which implies C
    but C is judged as ugly (a thought one desires to not think?)...
    and so they thus choose to not go from A to B at all.

    it's as if the thought was discontinued at A on the basis of the implications of C.

    i say "prior" here with a certain reservations regarding a leap of assumptions - i can say that at least it looks from the outside like you have never thought the actual thought, never uttered it in full within your own minds, and instead choose to put a lock on it or walk around it... it's sort of like the opposite phenomena to what described in the video's bit about inferior Se. it's as if your mind is capable of walking around your own eggshells. like there are situations things are on the tip of your tongue but you won't say them, you seem to have situations where something is on the tip of your mind, but you won't think it.
    Yes! You explained this so well...and it's very perceptive of you to even recognize this in other people. How did you do that? Very curious. But, at the same time, I assumed (almost) everyone does this as well until very recently. My ENFP supervisor and I were just talking about it...

    There are a variety of reasons for doing this (what are we calling It?), but I don't feel comfortable sharing them. But like someone said--Café maybe?--those pre-thoughts do not really ever go away.

  7. #67
    Senior Member hazelsees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iNtrovert View Post
    You're not alone. I have done this too. What's worse is I have been known to tell the other person there is something wrong with the way they interpreted my actions and that there is no reason why they should feel the way they feel. I have even gone as far as to tell them if they were offended they are being to sensitive and if they are hurt it's there own fault. Up until now I never knew why I did that. After reading this I would defiantly say it's because I am so careful not to do it. I feel like I put so much thought into it that if they somehow still manage to take it the wrong way it's by their own sensitivity not by my miscalculation. I know now that is wrong and I feel horrible about it
    That's it. If you're like me, you try so hard to be perfect and careful with other people. When you do mess up, it's painful to admit to it. It's brutal even. Then you try to fool yourself and them by "making" it the other person's fault. Then it can become an even bigger deal, complicated and ugly--when it would have been better to recognize and accept the failure at the beginning and to simply apologize.

    ...and I placate myself with "I do so much good and so many nice things. This one awful thing doesn't mean anything--in fact, it's probably the other party's fault."

    I'm so far behind here. Everyone is posting interesting stuff.

  8. #68
    Senior Member iNtrovert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    ] do you identify with what locking the ugly or undesired thought on the horizon in a box before thinking it?
    humm....to be honest I really cant think of a time where I have done that off hand but I will say I shut thoughts on an off. Over time I feel like I destroy that thought process I find unfavorable. For example gossip. I'm just a really quite person. Most people at work or at school just assume I can't hear them and they speak candidly in front of me. I mean I knew about teen pregnancies/abortions impending divorces mental issues and other things I had no business knowing. I often ended up holding that information against them in everyday interactions and judging them. Some one would bring up the person in question and my mind would automatically go there making all these judgments of disapproval ect. That was problematic for me so I needed cut off the information I knew. It was almost like i needed to associate them with something else. I also found myself doing this with people I desperately wanted to forgive. Idk I guess I used it to override my affinity to holding grudges. I would just play the offense over and over in my mind until I can rationalize my way around my anger(normally means make it my fault some how). I only do that when I have already idealized the person or my relationship with them so much that cutting them off is more painful than dealing with what they did.
    "Re-examine all that you have been told... dismiss that which insults your soul."_Walt Whitman

  9. #69
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazelsees View Post
    as with all types, when the child function is threatened, the INFJ can go into meltdown. the INFJ's child function is introverted thinking, an evaluation of personal conduct based social norms and morals. B]most of the time INFJs can be incredibly sensitive to the emotional lives of others[/B[B]], so it can be really debilitating to realize they have offended someone. having spent so much time [/B[]writing that Ti model of how to respect and honor others, the realization that they got it wrong can be a crippling upfront to the INFJs basic need to be people-competent. this can be so mortifying that the INFJ may find it difficult to apologize, preferring to reauthor the event to highlight or accentuate all the other good things they have done, hoping the offense is drowned out of contention.

    Wow. Read through the transcript and this stood out. This is so me, although it makes me feel very ashamed. But...I'm trying to better myself so admitting it here--to strangers--is a first step, right? Luckily, this has only happened a handful of times. I hate this about myself.
    Yeah, that part stood out as the most interesting observation to me. It seems like something worth exploring more at some point. I do think NFJs are prone to "reauthoring" (such a good word!), I just didn't think of it as an attempt to reduce the offence given. It seemed to me to be an effort to deflect personal blame.

    Something for me to think about...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    oh, just speculation, i wasn't sure about that part or how that works exactly, if at all. just trying to put two and two together here, thinking out loud...

    see one of the concepts introduced to me by INFJs and reaffirmed throughout getting familiar with more here - a notion which i found very foreign - was that a thought can be ugly. before that i considered some thoughts awesome and even beautiful, other thoughts can be boring or uninspiring, other thoughts can be worrying, but... i've never quite considered that thoughts can be judged as ugly or distasteful or.. i am trying to think of a better term here, "not worth thinking" ? an "unwelcomed thought"? anyway....

    in certain situations, it seems like INFJs are able to judge a thought prior to actually thinking it, and choose to not think it at all.

    so let's say A leads to B which implies C
    but C is judged as ugly (a thought one desires to not think?)...
    and so they thus choose to not go from A to B at all.

    it's as if the thought was discontinued at A on the basis of the implications of C.

    i say "prior" here with a certain reservations regarding a leap of assumptions - i can say that at least it looks from the outside like you have never thought the actual thought, never uttered it in full within your own minds, and instead choose to put a lock on it or walk around it... it's sort of like the opposite phenomena to what described in the video's bit about inferior Se. it's as if your mind is capable of walking around your own eggshells. like there are situations things are on the tip of your tongue but you won't say them, you seem to have situations where something is on the tip of your mind, but you won't think it.
    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Maybe like you can kind of see it in the distance and get a vague idea what's up ahead and instead of going in for a closer look, you think "That does not look good. I can't see anything good coming out of going there." And then just go someplace else. I suppose part of the brain kinda goes there but you don't let yourself dwell on it or explore it and if it tries, you redirect it.

    I would imagine the way you would decide it doesn't look like a good place to go would be based on past experiences and observations. My brain is always projecting where things are going to end up if things continue on their current path or where I'd like to see things going and what I need to do in order to get from point A to point B or what improvements I would make if I did a particular thing again. It won't really stay in the present unless I make it and I can only do that so long, so I don't even have to try to see what I think is going to happen. It just sort of does it on it's own, although working out alternative scenarios and planning takes actual focus and effort.

    I don't know if that's how it works for all INFJs or if it's an INFJ specific thing or if that helps at all.
    Yeah, this is the sort of thing I was getting at in the INFJ vs INFP thread (I still don't know who won that fight. No KO blow yet ). This is where I think the foreseeing aspect of Ni is actually much more complex and revealing than most people realise (as I have learned). Feel free to correct me if I get things wrong BTW.

    It seems the INFJ sees the world as a series of pathways. They foresee where each path is leading (it might be very short, with almost immediate results, or it may be more long-term) and make a choice as to which one to walk down. They see the choice as an active one and appear to have more capability than most types (certainly a hell of a lot more than me ) to control the direction they travel. And that 'direction' does not merely refer to their actions, behaviour and beliefs, but in their thoughts as well. What I was trying to convey in the other thread was, they don't seem to believe in mistakes in terms of (interpersonal or intra-personal) outcomes; to them it's just a failure to either comprehend the chosen path, or to choose the correct path in the first place (?). To the INFJ, you can't walk down a path, knowing where it leads, and then complain about the scenery when you get to the end. So for example, to the INFJ if you don't want to experience that ugly thought or feeling, don't go there.

    This is a really fascinating quality. To help put it in perspective, it's so different to my own personal version of 'introspective self-possession', so to speak. I can deal with feelings and thoughts after the fact, redirecting them where I need them to go, but I can't pre-empt their existence*. I have no idea how a person can achieve that. So much of my life is reacting to what happens or what I feel, then going about shaping things. I can foresee how I or others might feel or react to a situation but it is a vague imaginary construct (based on universal truth, and experience, projected forward), not a clear vision with distinct choices laid out in front of me. The world must be an orderly place to INFJs.

    *This is perhaps a source of some miscommunication with NPs because we can't pre-empt thoughts/feelings, we aren't as capable of consciously controlling our interpersonal behaviour, and we don't even travel in set pathways. If we inadvertently wander onto a (INFJ-style) path, we might follow it with no idea where it leads.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I should try to find links to some research that shows people make decisions unconsciously before they are aware of them, so I'm not certain how that relates.
    A very telling statement.

    As an aside: I think people are mix of unconscious and conscious decision making. Je+Pi users seem to lean towards the belief that most behaviour is conscious and Ji+Pe seem to think it is mostly unconscious. I definitely adhere to the latter and sometimes have to remind myself that this is not always so.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #70
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    A very telling statement.

    As an aside: I think people are mix of unconscious and conscious decision making. Je+Pi users seem to lean towards the belief that most behaviour is conscious and Ji+Pe seem to think it is mostly unconscious. I definitely adhere to the latter and sometimes have to remind myself that this is not always so.
    Ha! I guess that would apply to all people, and I was trying just to present it without communicating any specifics. If I were to say my best hypothesis - it is that I don't think "INFJs" filter ideas unconsciously any more than any other type. I didn't want to be confrontational or certain about it because I don't have enough enough information to present it as a solid idea. I don't know if that is helpful. I wasn't dismissing that it happens, I was just being accommodating and uncertain in my communication.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

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