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  1. #21
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    it's being pointed out by some of the INFJs here in the past that they often don't identify at all with the "evil INFJ ex" that quite a few seem to have. i find that divide interesting - and often wonder if that's a highly coincidental personality difference between the INFJs other people have met and the INFJs here themselves, or if it's simply a demonstration of the great difference between how INFJs in general tend to describe themselves and how INFJs are tend to be experienced by their spouses.

    this video provides a fine example, as there's a lot here that my own ex would greatly identify with, and has even declared in regards to herself (though not in the context of typology), which i can contrast with my own experience of her.

    her perspective:
    in bold - what she would describe herself as.
    in italic - the few bits she'd disagree with.
    in underlining - well, things that generally need to be underlined.

    the contrast:
    in blue - what has demonstrated and actually acted in accordance to.
    in red - what she has proven to be factually wrong in terms of her actions & choices.

    INFJs are supporting, insightful and intense partners, they value harmony, like to please and love intimacy, especially knowing how to delight and dissolve their partner. INFJs pride themselves on emotional intelligence and seek a deep emotional and spiritual connection with their partner, they desire closeness and love being the trusted confidant and protector of another's inner most thoughts and feelings.

    INFJs are extremely devoted parents who pour energy into nurturing deep and lasting bonds with their children, sometimes prioritizing their children's needs over their partners. the INFJ parent takes a keen interest in their children's development and well being, they will quickly in tune with their children emotional and intellectual interests, gently encouraging them to pursue and develop their own dream and fulfill their own inner potential.
    when it comes to parenting intensity, few match the INFJ, though this can occasionally spill over to molly cuddling. even then INFJ parents continue to find ways to keep their parenting flame alive.

    INFJs want to understand themselves, human nature in general, and develop a comprehensive conceptual framework into which these fit. they are highly empathic, gifted in understanding people, and often referred to as nature's psychologists. but like all of us, if an INFJ doesn't understand another's core values, they may misinterpret their actions.

    when in stress, an INFJ may often see threats in the relationship, that may be grains of sand, but which the INFJ will hyperbolize into mountain ranges. this happens with both INFJs and INTJs. in stress, all INxJs can get stuck in the grip of their inferior extroverted sensing, which Roger Pierman in "i'm not crazy i'm just not you",describes in the following terms:
    "extroverted sensing has the natural strength of collecting evidence from the environment - people, things and places. the fluid experience of information enables those using extroverted sensing to describe experiences well. but in its compensatory form, extroverted sensing leads to incorrect deductions from a single fact. at times a simple smell can lead to the catastrophic conclusion that a relationship is over.
    there is no step-by-step logic leading to the conclusion; it is as if the conclusion already existed and merely required the observation of a random fact to allow it to be arrived at."
    ordinarily very good at connection observations to illuminate deeper meaning, when stressed it may be very difficult to get an INFJ to reexamine their trusted insight, as they may simply find new random facts to validate their perspective.


    INFJs are creative and will inspire their partner and children with new ideas and perspectives.
    INFJs need a sense of meaning and purpose in their lives. they need to feel that they are contributing towards a better, more loving world. so when an INFJ has found their passion, they may become extremely driven to actualize their internal ideals in the outer world. this can also lead the INFJ to become so determined to achieve their goals that they may ignore all of their own personal needs. one INFJ university lecturer was so dedicated to her students, that she would work extremely long hours, often forgetting to eat and sleeping in her office, such that she eventually developed chronic fatigue syndrome.

    it should be noted that INFJs like SFJs are extremely faithful to their cohort. not the point where they need to attend all social events, but INFJs value loyal reliable friends. friends that have stuck by them through thick and thin are often afforded the same level of regard as a partner. this can be problematic when an INFJs sense of obligation to their cohort conflicts with the needs of their partner. INFJs spend such a lot of time ministering for the needs of others, so a partner may feel excluded or overlooked at times.

    INFJs navigate the emotional lives of others with care and sensitivity, trying to avoid causing offense, looking for the highest good in others, and seeking to maintain harmony.
    like INTJs, INFJs tend to be their own worst critiques, and demand of themselves very high standards, particularly when it comes to emotional and moral integrity.
    INFJs can also be very sensitive to criticism from others, and can regards negative comments as a personal a front. when hurt, even if no offense was intended, they may choose to avoid confrontation and clarifications of the other's intentions, and simply retreat and discuss with their cohort later, the offender might never know.
    regardless of type, unexpressed discontent breeds shadow, projection and more discontent, if an INFJ doesn't learn to share their feelings and clarify miscommunication, layers of misinterpretation can build up to the point where the INFJ may become outright condescending of what they believe are another's erroneous values.

    what INFJs want others to know about them:
    in a partner INFJs value mutual support, intimacy, intensity and shared values.
    INFJs have a deep and complex inner spiritual life, which they only share with those they absolutely trust, if at all. somethings are simply too precious or emotionally intense to be shared with anyone.
    INFJs like to be appreciated and recognized for who they are, and particularly for their understanding of people.
    INFJs are themselves great listeners, but also value being listened too. being consulted and feeling their values have being considered in decision making, is important to all feeling types, and INFJs like to know their input is valued.
    INFJs want authenticity. they are extremely tolerant and forgiving of others faults and foibles.. in turn they want to be accepted to who they are, especially their insights, which can be confronting to a partner at times.
    INFJs keep their innermost feelings very closely guarded, to avoid hurting and being hurt by others. emotional disclosure and openness in a partner encourages an INFJ to share more of themselves, also creating the intense intimacy the INFJ craves.
    INFJs are highly independent thinkers on matters relating to people, and need others to respect the clarity of their feelings. they also need the freedom to follow their personal dreams and aspirations. INFJs don't want a partner who craps their style. they will lovingly support and encourage a partner to pursue their own dreams, and want their partners to be similarly unimposing.
    while INFJs love ministering to people, listening to stories of pain can drain them and they may need to sit down brief with others. for the INFJ it can be difficult to strike a balance between the Ni need to spend time in reflection and contemplation, and the Fe desire to reach out to people. having regular 'me' time helps avoid emotional burnout.

    common mistakes INFJs make:
    especially with people insight, INFJs can spend so much time being tuned into what's happening in another person's psyche that they become oblivious to all sort of problems that are happening in their own lives. NiFe spends such a lot of time tending for the potential and well being of others, that the INFJ's Ti can become so fixated on self obligations to the outer world, that the core needs of self are overlooked.

    if a relationship is valuable, INFJs may also purger their own values to keep the peace, not speaking up when they are upset, or trying to find a more beautiful interpretation of their partners actions. but if an INFJ hides behind nice words too often, the unexpressed desires of the self can lead to bitterness and resentment.
    NiFe is naturally giving, and INFJs are energized by reaching out to encourage, protect and uplift others. where INFJs can become unstuck, is in failing to recognize that this desire is a self imposed discipline, a personal desire and need. when this is not understood, in a relationship where an INFJ has high degree of emotional investment fails, the INFJ may reframe past events in their mind, so as to position self as having being exploited by the other. and while it is true that the good nature of the INFJ is often exploited by opportunistic partners, INFJs that don't recognize it is their own compulsion that drives them to serve others, may project onto those who reject their help as having taken them for granted.

    like the INTJ, at times the INFJ can have delusions of grandeur. the INTJ believes they have superior insight into the nature of knowledge, which can lead to arrogantly discounting whole areas of information, so merrily discrediting views and opinions that can not be proven. the INFJ believes they have superior insight into the nature of people, which can lead to arrogantly disregarding science and even people, those who don't follow their model.

    it takes a long time for an INFJ to trust a partner enough to let them into their inner world. and once part of that inner world, they may expect a partner to operate according to their Ti model of appropriate social protocol and personal morality. and ESTP husband once complained of his INFJ wife,"we go out to the club and i'm just having a laugh being charming, and she goes around apologizing for me. look, i live and die by my actions. i don't need a pompous morality lecture. i am who i am. people can make up their own minds".

    as with all types, when the child function is threatened, the INFJ can go into meltdown. the INFJ's child function is introverted thinking, an evaluation of personal conduct based social norms and morals. most of the time INFJs can be incredibly sensitive to the emotional lives of others, so it can be really debilitating to realize they have offended someone. having spent so much time writing that Ti model of how to respect and honor others, the realization that they got it wrong can be a crippling upfront to the INFJs basic need to be people-competent. this can be so mortifying that the INFJ may find it difficult to apologize, preferring to reauthor the event to highlight or accentuate all the other good things they have done, hoping the offense is drowned out of contention.

    in intimate relationships the INFJ desire to establish harmony, and achieve closure when conflict arises, can mean that rather than deal with the issue at hand, the INFJ may simply re-double their expressions of love and affection, without embracing the discomfort that this can cause their partner.

    INFJ deal breaks and caveats:
    INFJs don't have many deal breakers. like the rest of us, they won't stand abuse. however they are surprisingly long suffering with even incompatible partners for the sake of their children.
    INFJs are patient and gracious partners, who will forgive and forgive and forgive, but when they do finally close the door, there's no going back.
    while extremely congenial and accommodating in the outer world, the INFJ has extremely deep personal values, like all introverted types, the child function is highly sensible, and being introverted thinking, somewhat rigid.

    both the INFJ and their partner need to be aware that INFJs do not disavow their inner values easily. to change an INFJs requires a careful even methodical rebuilding, systematically explaining how and why encumbered values are causing difficulty.
    partners and cohort are cautioned to never criticize or offend an INFJs values. to do so may unleash a creative fury, that is difficult for anyone to forget, leaving the INFJ greatly embarrassed and a partner greatly hurt. any wonder they get on with the morally unimposing ESTP so well.
    INFJs are fiercely protective of their children, do the wrong thing by the child of an INFJ and the severance would be completely and utterly final. in fact, an INFJ in rage makes a grizzly bear look tame.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Scheherezade's Avatar
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    @Mane - you really enjoyed tearing this apart

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherezade View Post
    @Mane - you really enjoyed tearing this apart
    i found the amount of blue ink surprising.

  4. #24
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I think it's all that attempted giving or believing that you should be super-altruistic that makes a lot of INFJs crazy. It makes me tired just reading all that do-goody stuff. Not that it isn't a good idea, but one person can only do so much.

    Everyone is a lot happier at my house if I take plenty of time to chill and take care of myself. That way I don't get stressed out and resentful and turn into a psychotic bitch. The world isn't going to fall apart if I read a book when I want to. I'm not that important.

    BTW, that transcript is impressive, @Mane. I don't know how you stood that horrid music long enough to do that.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #25
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it's being pointed out by some of the INFJs here in the past that they often don't identify at all with the "evil INFJ ex" that quite a few seem to have. i find that divide interesting - and often wonder if that's a highly coincidental personality difference between the INFJs other people have met and the INFJs here themselves, or if it's simply a demonstration of the great difference between how INFJs in general tend to describe themselves and how INFJs are tend to be experienced by their spouses.
    Since I'm the one who has referred to "everyone having an evil INFJ ex", I should clarify that I use hyperbole because I don't know how many do, but in a former thread there were three I think, I have a vague recollection of a couple of other people over the years (I can't identify how many), and then on another site there was a person famous for hating INFJs and wishing they did not exist, etc.

    While this does not refer at all to your issues with an INFJ ex, I should say that when I make that comment about INFJ exes, I question the validity of the typing because it is supposedly a rare type, and I think it is a type that is misunderstood. I think it could be easy to think an ex is an INFJ because:
    I = distant
    N = incomprehensible
    F = overly emotional
    J = rigid and controlling

    That could describe just about anyone's ex. It is of course possible that each case I've encountered is accurate. It could also be that I remember a small number of incidences just because each time it communicated conflict and sometimes hostility redirected to people online.

    It is just important that you do not assume that every relationship case with INFJs is like yours. I had a frightening relationship with an ESTP when I was 16, but that doesn't have any bearing on other ESTPs, even if he shares personality traits and thought processes in common with them. Even if other ESTPs have striking similarities - it wouldn't mean that when applied in an interaction with me it would be the same. It is of utmost importance that people do not universalize single incidents of suffering It distorts a sense of reality and can justify punishing people who have not committed similar acts.

    Edit: I wish there was a way for the exes of many of the INFJs here to post about the relationship, but when there wasn't horrible unresolved pain, people don't tend to revisit it or talk about it. They just move on with their lives. There was an ISTJ who posted some very kind things about his INFJ ex online here in another thread. Those are harder to remember as well because they are just peaceful, single posts that go by quietly that don't create conflict or lack of resolution either. The peaceful data points don't get seared into our memories and so just fade away.

    So what I am saying is that the negative data points are important to remember and examine, but they do not map with 100% accuracy and by nature they distort most human beings perception of reality because they lack closure. For any disastrous interaction between two types, there are also some wonderful examples that occur in the world. It's just like marriage or communism - each application is primarily unique based on the context in which it is experienced. There are millions of additional factors besides a theory or ideology that is imposed on a context.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    It is of utmost importance that people do not universalize single incidents of suffering It distorts a sense of reality and can justify punishing people who have not committed similar acts.
    but how else can i be framed as ? a man has to work the resume'... the jew angle just isn't what it used to be.

    Fe play aside - in all honesty thats a convenient intent prescribed to my actions externally by a few here regardless of what i said and regardless of actual stated intents. since there was no point in repeating myself to walls, so eventually i just run with it - there's a surprising amount of social leeway granted by conforming to what is convenient for others to see you as, and i'm not complaining. but no, there's never being an intent of punishment involved.

    it's never being a clear cut answer or conclusion for me, just a continues open question, re-examining my own data point, examining that of others, and mostly examining and reexamining reactions based on continually diversifying and filtered mental models to see when they work and when they don't, because in the end of the day that is what the INFJ or ENTP or any of those are - mental models, and i have at least another half a year to figure out what stands in the recipe before it needs to be cooked. that's being said, there's a reason why in this case i've gone for examining reactions and behavior rather than self-testimony, which i know can be frustrating on the other end, but my post above should provide some clarity behind that.

    edit: i have to say, the ease and willingness to incorporate positives generalizations in threads like this and yet call out negative generalizations on being generalizations has never being positively inspiring.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it's being pointed out by some of the INFJs here in the past that they often don't identify at all with the "evil INFJ ex" that quite a few seem to have.
    That YOU have. Or rather, that you think you have.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    That YOU have. Or rather, that you think you have.
    meh, no to both implications. pay attention.

  9. #29
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    but how else can i be framed as ? a man has to work the resume'... the jew angle just isn't what it used to be.

    Fe play aside - in all honesty thats a convenient intent prescribed to my actions externally by a few here regardless of what i said and regardless of actual stated intents. since there was no point in repeating myself to walls, so eventually i just run with it - there's a surprising amount of social leeway granted by conforming to what is convenient for others to see you as, and i'm not complaining. but no, there's never being an intent of punishment involved.

    it's never being a clear cut answer or conclusion for me, just a continues open question, re-examining my own data point, examining that of others, and mostly examining and reexamining reactions based on continually diversifying and filtered mental models to see when they work and when they don't, because in the end of the day that is what the INFJ or ENTP or any of those are - mental models, and i have at least another half a year to figure out what stands in the recipe before it needs to be cooked. that's being said, there's a reason why in this case i've gone for examining reactions and behavior rather than self-testimony, which i know can be frustrating on the other end, but my post above should provide some clarity behind that.

    edit: i have to say, the ease and willingness to incorporate positives generalizations in threads like this and yet call out negative generalizations on being generalizations has never being positively inspiring.
    Just to be clear, I was trying to make a generalization about the punishment aspect. The closest I can conclude about your thoughts/feelings about INFJs is that it is complex. I've seen you write positive and negative things. This issue of intent comes up in many conflicts I have with NPs. I don't think as much in terms of intent. Even when I generalize about punishment, I think there are likely a million internal ways to frame an action that appears like and can feel like punishment. The NPs I discuss subjective systems with often assume we are exchanging information about the inner worlds, the intent, of people, but my focus is more often on the external action. I've had arguments (rarely) with NPs where they tell me about their inner feelings/intent, then they tell me mine, then they tell me how that makes them feel, never once considering that their internal constructs could be off. It is rarely possible to change these inner view, so I apologize and ask how I can change to fix it. It is the only way to resolve it about 80%of the time. Inner certitude is the measure if doing this.

    You are right that people don't often question the positive descriptions, but I don't think that is solely INFJs, but rather human nature. What INTP is going to say they aren't intelligent or objective? You should see the IQ reports on their forum. They range from 130 up through 170 as a common occurrence. And I didn't reject the positives.

    brb

    Edit: I was just going to say that I'm not certain that people accept the positives because they are proud and not self critical. I think it might be because people are completely overloaded with criticism in our society. Ads show everyone they aren't attractive enough, in-laws may gossip and do subtle put downs, pastors tell people how much they have sinned, and employers take advantage and criticize all the time. Where are people getting positive reinforcement? Some never do, so if there is a personality description saying they are smart or kind-hearted, or insightful, it is only natural that people will just take it because they are so starved for someone to say someone nice or just assume the best for once. This is my continual impression of the vast majority of people I encounter.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I've had arguments (rarely) with NPs where they tell me about their inner feelings/intent, then they tell me mine, then they tell me how that makes them feel, never once considering that their internal constructs could be off.
    hrm, this might relate to something i've experienced with NJs in general - taking whatever propositioning i am examining as a matter of finale conclusion, when most of the time it's just something i am putting out there to gather feedback - both directly and generally to see how it's reacted too. i don't know if this is correct to apply to all NPs, but it matches with my experience with other NPs so far and it sort of makes sense in the context of Ne. if it is accurate, i suppose you might just want to take it as such - assume it is being questioned, the proposition and seen your reaction is part of the process of questioning.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    You are right that people don't often question the positive descriptions, but I don't think that is solely INFJs, but rather human nature. What INTP is going to say they aren't intelligent or objective? You should see the IQ reports on their forum. They range from 130 up through 170 as a common occurrence. And I didn't reject the positives.
    you are right, but to add to that, i don't think many ENTPs would feel a sense of finding themselves if described as altruistically nurturing & self-sacrificing, nor would many ISFJs find pride in being thrown the badass card... this is a big part of why i see MBTI as an examination of the ego more than an examination of one's true nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    It is rarely possible to change these inner view, so I apologize and ask how I can change to fix it.
    hmm, with me it's a matter of demonstrate, don't declare.

    not sure how much of it is applicable to others though. it's just my own experience with people in general that the more enlightened self-compliments i see someone giving themselves, the more i've learned to expect it to fall like a house of cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    brb
    rofl - love that - feels like a real conversation.

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