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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    INFJs
    so far so good, just a regular type-affirming thread...
    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    and those that have been in relationships with them.


    seriously, when have those two sets of descriptions ever matched the slightest? if this vid can find common ground between those two, that would be incredible. i will try to grab some time to watch it later.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Scheherezade's Avatar
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    accurate, i`ve been in a relationship with an INFJ and we were extremely "in tune"and intense, by far the most i ve been with someone, i still can`t explain it entirely, but it ended due to lack of communication, i couldn`t get through the barrier he put up when he thought i was cheating and talk to him, it was as if i was actually speaking another language to him; the silence treatment continues even today after 5 years

  3. #13
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherezade View Post
    i couldn`t get through the barrier he put up when he thought i was cheating and talk to him,
    Just curious. Were you? Why would he think that?

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  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I was surprised how closely it does map to my thinking and behavior. Also, now that I finished writing the following, I can see the hyper self-criticizing aspect at play. It feels more embarrassing to go on and on about being considerate, empathetic, and inspiring, but I do feel ownership over those traits as well.

    Positives:
    Inspiring and helping others reach potential - this is something that I do as a teacher and feel I am quite good at listening deeply to people, asking questions, throwing out ideas, until I help them to find their innermost goals and sources of inspiration. Instead of pressuring students to practice and fearing my response if they don't, I try to find what they really love so I can guide them into a project that they desire to do.

    Empathy and focus on others needs with tendency for oblivious to one's own needs- I do experience this and tend to seek out people who can benefit from my help. This imbalance is accentuated in me because I grew up the youngest and strongest in a vulnerable family and so I was trained to overlook my own needs in favor of others. I get really confused and lost and have trouble being conscious of my needs. This is something that has caused relationship problems because it builds up over time and I feel neglected, but I am at the core of that neglect and not the other person. They have to be given a chance to comprehend my needs, so I have to develop both the ability to comprehend needs and to express needs. This imbalance works great for distant friendships and professional interactions where there are hard boundaries in place and I can leave and recover, but for intimate relationships it has to be addressed.


    Negatives:
    Intense self-criticism - this is definitely an issue, but I work to externalize myself and ask if I would judge another as harshly. This helps me to see myself as a person.

    Too much privacy - I realize this is not evident in this context because I overshare, but throughout most of my life I have been too private. As an artist I have admired those who are completely open and transparent emotionally and have worked to become more that way to help me achieve deeper expression as an artist. I still take a long time to think about personal things before sharing - unless I've had a couple glasses of wine.

    When stressed using Se to validate internal assumptions - I have reframed external info to fit an internal model when it is based on fear and rejection. When I was young I would reinterpret everything to prove I was being rejected socially which drove me further inward and isolated. When going through my divorce I had moments of reframing the relationship to see myself as the harmed party as it said in the video, but I made an effort to see my own failings and remain balanced in my views. My counselor at the time said it was rare how much I defended my partner while going through the divorce. When having relationship trouble I always defend my partner moreso than myself, so that intimate reframing doesn't occur in every scenario, unless I also do it in the opposite direction. In intimate social instability I do feel like I struggle to maintain a sense of objective reality, and work continually to hold on to it, and tend to distrust my inner assumptions to a point of feeling like I am completely adrift and just hope for the best.

    Morally controlling - this one I don't relate to, but they also said that INFJ tolerate a lot from people. When younger I was intensely religious and eventually found organized religion too overstimulating and so rejected it in my life. At this point my sense of morality entertains the possibility that each person is exactly the result of experience and that we may be merely observers of processes and not in control of our lives. In this way there is not the option of looking down on anyone because deep down they are just observing the processes of their own life as I am. It is possible that this is how I reconcile the desire for coherency between not wanting to judge anyone and dealing with the cruelty and arrogance that exist in the world.

    Judging based on social norms - this one I don't relate to, but they also said INFJ has unique understanding of people. Although, I can become socially embarrassed easily if attention is drawn to me for any reason. I don't think I would apologize for another person's behavior, though, as they described in the video.

    Trouble apologizing - I apologize all the time, but I have some fear of apologizing for something deeply personal that it could be used to manipulate me. I'm not certain where that comes from, but it feels like I can fall into such intense personal criticism that if someone gets ahold of an exposed nerve that they could do far more damage than they realize if they use it to make me feel worse about myself or they use it to control me. I think this impression comes from aspects of my religious background. I don't demand apologies from others, but appreciate it if I have been harmed and find it endearing when I have no memory of being harmed. I would not want someone to apologize if overall it caused them more mental stress than it was worth. If it helped them feel better about themselves and corrected conflict, then I value and would encourage it. If I know it is the right thing to apologize I will do it regardless of the feelings of discomfort.

    Rigid internal values - I'm not sure this fits, but I'll think about it. My NFP family feels stressed that I don't agree with them on politics and religion, so I try to focus on whatever we do agree on, and it doesn't bother me that they think differently from me. I'm glad they do because it helps them to be connected and to have harmony with their partners and co-workers.
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 06-10-2013 at 08:44 AM. Reason: spelling
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    A few more thoughts from the shower.

    I was wondering how would any of those descriptions differ for the ISFJ or ENFJ? I think there are a few details that would, but the video mostly addressed Fe. It did not really explore what Ni is at all and left Ti as an especially weak function, so in that way I felt the video reflected a lot about my socializing, but not my inner world - which I guess is what the title conveys as well.

    Considering type theory, I disagree with INFJs having rigid inner morality. I think the combination of Ni and Fe places the INFJ in a unique position to comprehend relativistic morality. Because the intense empathy that can result from Fe, and the externalizing of subjective systems, there would be more accommodating of multiple systems, and instead finding a very few underlying, core principles to connect to these systems to satisfy the Ni-Ti need for coherency, or in some cases, an INFJ may be content with a purely relativistic view.

    Ni is not about morality, it is about abstract reasoning and understanding the world by seeing relationships between concepts and the underlying patterns. To use a metaphor: A human being is an abstract pattern through which matter flows. The atoms are replaced in our bodies continually, but the underlying abstract pattern of a person forms the container for this matter. Ni is seeing that underlying structure while Si is comprehending the matter that flows through it. It may be that Ni can form rigid inner constructs as Si, Ti, and Fi can, but of the four introverted functions, I would suggest that Ni is capable of entertaining multiple frameworks because of its very nature of viewing things from multiple angles to get the greatest, clearest sense of the "big picture", a picture so enormous it cannot be seen all at once.

    Also, Ni combined with Ti creates a unique inter-relationship of applying logic to this unseeable system.

    Edit: as I think back, my morality could have been described as somewhat rigid when I was immersed in one organized religious systems. I think when an INFJ is in that context, their Fe in relationship to that environment can overwhelm the Ni making it appear more like the experiential quality of Si or the moralistic structure of Fi. I did have secret, inner spirituality when alone in nature that was indefinable and the only aspect that has remained a constant in my life. When I pulled back, gained distance and saw multiple systems in a non-personal, non-involved manner, then my true Ni kicked in to make sense of the existence of multiple systems of similar value, and I worked to extract one or two underlying principles of compassion and sincerity that can make sense of most. At this point I would say my morality is best described as flexible.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #16
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Considering type theory, I disagree with INFJs having rigid inner morality.
    I didn't understand why she said that. If anything, it sounded more Fi than Fe.

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  7. #17
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I can kind of see it. Because it takes awhile to build an inner structure within our heads of how to look at the world and why we believe what we do and it becomes a central part of what we're all about, I think sometimes INFJ expectations, particularly of someone close to them, are that they share the same basic outlook (and therefore behaviour should be consistent with that outlook). In some cases, I can see how that would seem like imposing a rigid inner morality on someone else.

    For example, I tolerate much different kinds of decision-making, personal choices, treatment of others in my acquaintances than I do in people I am known to be close friends with. In a partner, I'm not likely to stand by and watch while they act in a way that appears to me to be destructive, unkind, inconsistent or socially ignorant without some kind of conflict about it. It's not that I want to remake the basic person. It's more that I wouldn't get involved with someone that saw the world hugely differently than me or acted in a way that I found morally repugnant. My ex bf and I had several go arounds about how he would treat his friends nicely to their faces, but then when he was talking about them when they weren't around, he'd make fun of them, or if they were all at a party together, he would make them look bad in front of people he thought were cooler. Or he chose to remain in a community where he no respect or kinder way of looking at the people he was serving as a teacher and would constantly slag the community, the school and the people he worked with. I found those kinds of behaviours absolutely unattractive and they had not been out in the open when we first met. Over time, they were the sticking point that decided me that I did not want to be with him in the long term.

    With a close friend from grad school, several of our friends as well as me observed that he was behaving inconsistently depending on whose company he was in. It wasn't simply a matter of people bringing out slightly different sides of him, but rather a complete change in persona, actions and character. I felt that it was dishonest. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Be who you are and let the chips fall where they may, but don't pretend to be several different people so you can reap the rewards with none of the downsides. Again, had he been a casual acquaintance, I couldn't have cared less what he did. Because he was a close friend, I did care and told him so rather bluntly, even though I rarely go seeking out conflict.

    With less important people to me, I just limit my interaction or distance myself from negative behaviours. With someone I care about, I'll fight it out. After a period of time though if nothing changes I'm prepared to change the type of relationship we share.

    Note: I just also thought of another thing. Because I put a lot of effort into being able to know what to expect from someone, when they behave uncharacteristically or in a way not in keeping with the particular viewpoint they have subscribed to, I feel kind of had, like they lied to me. I'm not including an unintentional mess up, but rather a pattern of behaviour that doesn't line up with what the person has led me to believe about them over a period of time. This might also contribute to the "rigid inner morality" thing she's talking about.

    I don't think this morality has to necessarily be limited to religion, but rather to anything that is really important to the INFJ in question (treatment of others, being vegan, saving the animals, championing certain causes, subscribing to a certain set of social mores, being part of a particular subculture...)

  8. #18
    Senior Member Scheherezade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Just curious. Were you? Why would he think that?
    I wasn't, i had met with my ex to help me with something at my Univ. and he happened to call and got really angry, but in his defense he also had a minor bike accident that day and was pretty mad about it..

  9. #19
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    9/10.

    it's pretty good. when things are rolling well with an infj, you'll often see yourself more clearly than you ever have before. but infjs are people too, and people've got problems (i say this knowing that one of the issues is in over identifying with potential, with what could be when placed in a different pattern of conditions, a different context, and not allowing ourselves to just be people, to be what we are, to be where we're at, especially under duress, rather than identifying with a kind of transcendental perfection, a complex transcendental aesthetic/sense of beauty/ecological sense). as far as being capable of and skilled enough to work with an infj's somewhat unusual brand of problems, that, like she says in other videos about the core ingredients of all relationships, takes some luck.

    i'm in a relationship with someone who can work with my issues, but i had already been in a place where my commitment to working with them (the issues) and willingness to let go of parts of myself to relate to them better was already well in motion. so there's a kind of balance that allows the pillars to have a little more space and grounding in their own accord, rather than feeling like it's all one reason or another. some detachment in both ways is necessary to find balance, which gives more resources to find balance in the relationship as a whole.

    as is always the case, other aspects of personality also play a huge role in feeling out the probability gradients that make the prediction feel worth it/not worth it. that really coalesce into a clear intent, an organized, integral commitment. as an sx, someone who can help me actualize my potential is incredibly important. i'm finding that i'm (somewhat paradoxically) willing to let go of more of myself to realize this.

    as far as other videos, like where she talks about shared perception functions as being the most important thing in relationships (a la socionics), i don't really buy it (because the productive capacity is also different). but it definitely does take more trust, as transparency decreases. i always thought for me, relationship-wise, infp was a real, viable possibility. we can have very little transparency apart from aesthetically relating, apart from communicating principally through aesthetic vision and understanding (well, and body language and identity modeling). but that always still seemed workable to me because i felt like the values-based connection that was possible through those aesthetic means had enough potential to hold strong. i've seen it work too many times in other relationships. i feel like one's sense of purpose, and how those relate, which is probably more of an enneagram issue than a socio-cognitive one, is where much of the promise lies anyway. nevertheless, implementation matters, and pragmatically organizes worthwhileness/expediency as well, even if it's never enough by itself to dictate worth.

  10. #20
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    in order to be able to better break it down later - with the video having many interesting and points to consider carefully on one hand, while having the most annoying background music and general tone on the other and not being excited on rewatching it, i've written for myself a transcript, so i figured i might as well share it (feel free to correct any english errors, and @highlander - feel free to to add it to the OP, as others expressed similar annoyance).

    video transcript:

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