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  1. #11
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Well, the internal/external orientation makes a big difference. Because IP's are internally oriented with their J, you generally don't see it, and you only see the "openness" of the external perception. That's what then characterizes the "J/P" preference.
    I know it sounds farfetched, and he probably could have worded it differently or something, but there really is something to that. When thinking about this more, recently, I'm realizing, that yeah, I'm just as closed as I see the J's as; only it's internally based. The J's do in fact often think we're ridiculously "rigid" or closeminded, because to them, the course of action is decided by the object. So to them, we look like we're just "being that way" for no reason at all, because our standard is not the external object right before us.
    Yeah IPs can be very stubborn and defensive of personal beliefs but they are still not goal oriented(not even close) in the way EJs and IJs are, compared to INTPs even most ENTPs need to see some kind of external result/application from their ideas but they just tend to lose interest quicker(off to the next shiny new thing) while INTPs can hold their interests longer(but still shorter than Js) but usually seek understanding for it's own sake(subject orientation). The way goal oriented is used is to imply a set external completion and application that most IPs(especially INPs) could care less about, IPs have the most difficulty with external organization and fitting into heavily structured roles.

    But in some ways I'd consider the NJs to potentially be the most open minded types because Ni appreciates interpretive ambiguity so much, Ni just "settles" for externally predictable methodology(even if it ultimately considers it arbitrary) to set limitations.
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  2. #12
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Again, I think he would mean internal goals (which I could certainly testify to), which won't look as obvious as external goals, which is what most would associate the term with.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Again, I think he would mean internal goals (which I could certainly testify to), which won't look as obvious as external goals, which is what most would associate the term with.
    I do recognize the "J" in myself but I would describe it as a distinct priority of exactitude in expression of meaning, it is always subject oriented , somebody would only notice this exatitude when engaging in a serious intellectual argument, this is when I can get to the very nuances of construction in a person's ideas. But my outward behaviors and the way I approach stuff/solve problems is very much perceptive, I really don't "know" what I'm doing but just go by trial and error until I get something right. It really is an irrational approach to the outward world, I have a mostly SJ family and they call me to fix all kinds of appliances and they've noticed I have a knack for fixing things.

    But the thing is I know about as much about how to fix it as they do but I just go in there and get my hands on it until something works, I'm just really good at bumping into the solution by accident. They approach things in a very rational, one step at a time way(Je) that works well in a structured environment where you know what to expect over and over again but this approach fails when dealing with too many unknown variables.

    How would you describe your internal goals, are they fixed and applicable, are they general and kind of vague?
    I would think Ti "goals" would be more removed from more worldly concerns and be more towards some unattainable ideal.
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  4. #14
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Part of it may be the same as what you describe. Unattainable ideals and such.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Robopop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Part of it may be the same as what you describe. Unattainable ideals and such.
    Well the Personality Junkie guy is still dead wrong on grouping IPs and EJs together just because they are judging dominant, they have radically different approaches to their priorities, lifestyles, ect. IPs just have much much much more in common with EPs than EJs, here's a good quote from Lenore Thomson's Personality Type book that does an excellent job of explaining the difference between the Pe conception of freedom and Pi freedom:

    P types, who are response-ready, naturally understand freedom as the absence of constraint. They want the ability to take immediate action, as a situation is occurring, without having to explain it to themselves or reckon with prior limits.

    J types understand freedom from the opposite perspective. Without plans or expectations, one has no choice but to be response-ready, constantly alert to all the data available in a situation. This lack of choice makes J types feel trapped. It forces them to react, and only to react, without recourse.

    From this point of view, the ability to establish priorities doesn't limit one's options. It creates options that don't exist in nature, thus freeing one from the mercy of chance and circumstance.
    Pi still has a negative association of external possibilities and situations, what this means is that Pi dominants are still not spontaneous in the same way EPs or IPs are, they are still generally cautious and need their environment to be stable, saying IJs have more in common with EPs than EJs is just plain ridiculous(Personality Junkie seems to have little understanding about introverted perception to begin with). The cautious, serious IJs ends up looking like the complete opposites of the more free spirited, risk taking EPs, vice versa for the individualistic, easygoing IPs vs the managerial, task oriented EJs.
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  6. #16
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Funny, as he's just sent a mailing, in which he says "And of the four NT types, I identified least with ENTJ. This helped to confirm my status as an introvert in general, as well as an INTP in particular."

    I still say his statements on IJ/EP and IP/EJ have to be understood in context, though I guess the emphasis he places on them in the book makes that difficult.
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  7. #17
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    He's just published a new book:
    My True Type Book
    (includes excerpts)

    Sounds like it's going to be good.
    It goes into the four dichotomies, and the eight function-attitudes. He even compares similar ones, which is a good way to understand what makes each one distinct.
    There is a chapter on EP, EJ, IP and IJ, but mybe this will help clarify what he says about them.

    They're outlined as:
    EJs & IPs: “J-P-J” Types
    EPs & IJs: “P-J-P” Types

    Looks like he's going to go into the order of information gathering and decision making.
    It also includes his own two-part assessment instrument (dichotomy preferences and then actual functions).
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  8. #18
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    I just started reading his INTP e-book.

  9. #19
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    I've got all his ebooks and have found them the most useful resources to me so far regarding mbti and functions. I especially like how he discusses the temptation to jump from our primary function to the Tert and how that negatively affects our choices of career and partner. I've observed those tendancies in myself but didn't have words to describe it.

  10. #20
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    He's a good writer, I like his style and usually enjoy his blog posts. He does tend to focus on the INxx types more than other types, but that doesn't bother me, although I could see others taking issue.

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