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  1. #61
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I know, I guess that's right. But... seriously. Read the quoted statements again... and try to imagine how you'd feel if you lived in this world:



    Don't you see? You all basically said, in not so many words... that you don't like Ni at all. True, you didn't say it directly... but can you really deny that the trend indicates that? I admit that I might be wrong, reading too much into it... but it seems like a pretty strong impression.

    Of course, I guess I could concede that not liking Ni doesn't necessarily translate to not liking NJs.
    I NJs. I even married one. Actually, I'm confused as to why you're equating this with Ni. I feel I have quite an easy time relating to people using introverted intuition. It's the N_Ps who throw me for a loop with their use of Ne. Not that I dislike them personally, but I equate Ne with reading between the lines, making allusions that seem to me to be vague, and choosing to be overtly metaphorical rather than direct. The NFJs in my life are also refreshingly interested in focusing on real possibilities for the future, as opposed to analyzing the past or talking about purely hypothetical things.

  2. #62
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    That makes sense to me.

    I'm honestly a little ashamed to admit that I went along with some of those threads even though part of me probably knew there really wasn't anything that bad about Se... not out of frustration, but because I didn't want to alienate the people who did believe that, draw frustration and accusations onto myself or break up their enjoyment of casting aspersions on the exaggerated image, and because it was a comfortable belief to entertain (at least until I was forced to deal with the negative implications of believing it), considering how clumsy I am with Se situations. I didn't want be the one to draw the attention to myself by pointing out the elephant in the room, I guess.

    Now that I know how it feels... I'm sorry I remained silent and went along with it.

    I read some of that stuff I wrote now and wonder what I was thinking... I guess it was something like "There are hardly any SPs around here, it's not like anyone's actually going to be affected by this." I failed to foresee that SPs might actually show up and read that stuff (back then there were only two, and everyone thought they were Ns anyway). I never would have said it or gone along with it if I had thought they would.
    Or that SPs might show up, read the stuff, and decide that they can't possibly be SPs if that means they have to be associated with all this negative stuff. So they pick another more popular type to "be," and then proceed to mess up everyone's understanding of what it's like to actually be those other types.

    Or (and I've known this to happen, at least in another type group), they believe they're SPs and admit that only to a select few, but publically don't make mention of that because it they're afraid of the "unintelligent" label. So they choose to publically label themselves N_Ps in order to be taken seriously. Thanks to that, everone equates their thoughts and feelings with what it means to be an NFP or an NTP, which means that when SPs who are thoughtful and not dumb show up in a discussion group and are brave enough to admit their true type, people respond by telling them they must be mistyped.

    If I weren't so determined to present myself accurately and honestly, I could very easily claim to be an INFP. I could then proceed to muddy-up what it really means to be an INFP by claiming that Se-related behavior is all part of what it means to be an NF. That would be helpful to exactly no one, but if I did that, it would have the temporary effect of making me feel happy to belong to a popular, desirable type group. Who doesn't want to be associated with intelligence and desirability?

    Not that I'm a saint regarding this -- when it comes to the SP types, I admit I'd much rather imagine that I can easily "disown" behavior traits that scare me by claiming that ISFPs don't do that sort of thing. It's just pure vanity, though. I have no doubt there are many undesirable, reprehensible ISFPs in this world.

  3. #63
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I NJs. I even married one. Actually, I'm confused as to why you're equating this with Ni. I feel I have quite an easy time relating to people using introverted intuition. It's the N_Ps who throw me for a loop with their use of Ne. Not that I dislike them personally, but I equate Ne with reading between the lines, making allusions that seem to me to be vague, and choosing to be overtly metaphorical rather than direct. The NFJs in my life are also refreshingly interested in focusing on real possibilities for the future, as opposed to analyzing the past or talking about purely hypothetical things.
    For your statements, you probably are correct. I can actually see that now. But some of them seem to be referring to Ni rather than Ne.

    As far as what you're talking about with Ne, I think I know what you mean. Sometimes I can't pick up on Ne either. They seem to accept ideas they're presented with as initial boundaries, and can only plan/think outside of them once they've experienced being outside of them. I tend to only think of what I'm literally capable of doing or choosing as an initial boundary, and only allow my goals and fears to prune my range of choices.

    It's hard to pick up, because it uses a lot of generally accepted assumptions about how things are as starting points for the ideas, rather than what's actually being looked at or seen. What's worse is that sometimes I end up being scared into thinking that something they meant metaphorically or as an exaggeration of the reality is literally the case, at least for a moment. You have no idea how many flawed beliefs I held for a long time as a result of being exposed to bad Ne, and thinking it was meant literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Or that SPs might show up, read the stuff, and decide that they can't possibly be SPs if that means they have to be associated with all this negative stuff. So they pick another more popular type to "be," and then proceed to mess up everyone's understanding of what it's like to actually be those other types.

    Or (and I've known this to happen, at least in another type group), they believe they're SPs and admit that only to a select few, but publically don't make mention of that because it they're afraid of the "unintelligent" label. So they choose to publically label themselves N_Ps in order to be taken seriously.

    If I weren't so determined to present myself accurately and honestly, I could very easily claim to be an INFP. I could then proceed to muddy-up what it really means to be an INFP by claiming that Se-related behavior is all part of what it means to be an NF. That would be helpful to exactly no one, but if I did that, it would have the temporary effect of making me feel happy to belong to a popular, desirable type group. Who doesn't want to be associated with intelligence and desirability?

    Not that I'm a saint regarding this -- when it comes to the SP types, I admit I'd much rather imagine that I can easily "disown" behavior traits that scare me by claiming that ISFPs don't do that sort of thing. It's just pure vanity, though. I have no doubt there are many undesirable, reprehensible ISFPs in this world.
    I can definitely see that happening, too, now that you mention it. I think that my idea of SEVERAL types has been muddied by people who've done just this... especially INTPs.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Sarah, you use the term "overtly metaphorical" and seem to think that it's deliberate evasiveness. I thought I'd say something about how it is for me. I don't know if this applies to others or not, but suspect it does to some degree.

    I "think" in metaphors. I ""see" in metaphors. Everything is connected to everything else in my world. It's a wonderous place to be and full of images and "aha" moments and poetry. I consider it a true gift of birth and like all blessings it has its down side as well. For one thing, it's so attractive and powerful that I can be drawn there and end up bumping into furniture and stuff. Heh. Hard to look like a dreamy muse when you're fallin' down allada time.

    Kinesthetic awareness is a must for me. And frequent reality checks, as well. So lots is goin' on when I'm dealing in the world of people.

    Throughout my eighteen years plus of school I never realized that I was being asked to translate all my thoughts and feelings into a foreign language! But that's what I was doing for all those years. A good thing, or people wouldn't be able to understand me at all. Well other NFPs and a couple of other personality types, I guess.

    There were times in my life when I was new at things - new relationships, new jobs, and the like and at those times I think I'd fall back into my more natural way of being and, knowing that I didn't communicate well in that mode, would be hesitant, tentative about expressing myself.

    There was also that troublesome INFP thing about seeming to feel other people's feelings which caused fear of harm for them/myself, also. It was only after I learned to differentiate well between myself and others that I took the first, somewhat courageous, steps to be assertive with confidence.

    Hope that adds a new dimension to the viewpoint.

    Edit: Just thought to add that for many years I thought everyone processed information in the same way and so I would make assumptions that my metaphorical speech was understandable. Couldn't figure out why people would misunderstand me!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #65
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I know, I guess that's right. But... seriously. Read the quoted statements again... and try to imagine how you'd feel if you lived in this world:
    I may not be able to imagine it very well, but I do have a lot of experience with it. My mom is INFJ and so is the co-worker I talk to the most. And probably several other people I've known in my life before I was aware of types at all. Probably some of my teachers when I was in school. There are moments when they frustrate the hell out of me, but that doesn't mean I don't still love them.

    I didn't start this topic as a "here's what I don't like about N's" thread. And I don't think most of the posts here have really taken on that tone either. I think maybe the SPs are attempting to help y'all to better communicate with us, you know, in the interest of fostering understanding and all that type of crap.

    Just remember this: Sometimes a statement is just a statement. It's not always a cry for help or a petition for advice. Sometimes we just feel like sharing something with you. And we don't mean anything else. Really. Just what we said. Honest.

    Now let's go get a burger and a shake.
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  6. #66
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Sarah, you use the term "overtly metaphorical" and seem to think that it's deliberate evasiveness. I thought I'd say something about how it is for me. I don't know if this applies to others or not, but suspect it does to some degree.

    I "think" in metaphors. I "see" in metaphors. Everything is connected to everything else in my world. It's a wonderous place to be and full of images and "aha" moments and poetry. I consider it a true gift of birth and like all blessings it has its down side as well. For one thing, it's so attractive and powerful that I can be drawn there and end up bumping into furniture and stuff. Heh. Hard to look like a dreamy muse when you're fallin' down allada time.

    You're right, Anja -- it's not the function itself that's the problem, it's my perception of it, given my psychological makeup. Chances are, if I'm being "overtly metaphorical", it's in order to create a smokescreen so that I don't have to say what I really want to say, so it's probably more about how I use it than how others use it. If you accept the Beebe model of cognitive processes order, Ne is a shadow function for me, which means that I use it when I feel stressed, and when I use it, I use it badly (for me that would be convincing myself that all sorts of shady hidden motives are behind someone's actions):

    ISFP

    I don't want to criticize Ne users-- in fact, although I don't have a firsthand knowledge of how their minds work, I've gotten lots of help from them, and I have several friends who prefer Ne. However, I do find it very embarrassing when I've taken something that was supposed to be metaphorical as literal and nobody politely corrects me, but I can sense that I said something wrong. I also find it frustrating when someone says something that seems to be metaphorical and I ask for clarification as to its' meaning (because the meaning isn't obvious) and get nothing in reply. That makes me feel completely left out of what seems to me like a grand, mysterious conversation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Kinesthetic awareness is a must for me. And frequent reality checks, as well. So lots is goin' on when I'm dealing in the world of people.

    Throughout my eighteen years plus of school I never realized that I was being asked to translate all my thoughts and feelings into a foreign language! But that's what I was doing for all those years. A good thing, or people wouldn't be able to understand me at all. Well other NFPs and a couple of other personality types, I guess.

    There were times in my life when I was new at things - new relationships, new jobs, and the like and at those times I think I'd fall back into my more natural way of being and, knowing that I didn't communicate well in that mode, would be hesitant, tentative about expressing myself.

    There was also that troublesome INFP thing about seeming to feel other people's feelings which caused fear of harm for them/myself, also. It was only after I learned to differentiate well between myself and others that I took the first, somewhat courageous, steps to be assertive with confidence.

    Hope that adds a new dimension to the viewpoint.

    Edit: Just thought to add that for many years I thought everyone processed information in the same way and so I would make assumptions that my metaphorical speech was understandable. Couldn't figure out why people would misunderstand me!
    Thank you! Yes, it does help.

  7. #67
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I didn't start this topic as a "here's what I don't like about N's" thread. And I don't think most of the posts here have really taken on that tone either. I think maybe the SPs are attempting to help y'all to better communicate with us, you know, in the interest of fostering understanding and all that type of crap.

    Just remember this: Sometimes a statement is just a statement. It's not always a cry for help or a petition for advice. Sometimes we just feel like sharing something with you. And we don't mean anything else. Really. Just what we said. Honest.
    I totally agree with that. I don't think any of the SPs who contributed to this conversation are just interested in whining. Maybe I'm presuming too much, but I think the reason most of us are we're here is in order to find out how to have the best possible relationships with Ns. Because we like them.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    However, I do find it very embarrassing when I've taken something that was supposed to be metaphorical as literal and nobody politely corrects me, but I can sense that I said something wrong.

    Thank you! Yes, it does help.
    Good. I hope for the same from others. It's so easy to misunderstand others when we can only filter them through our own preferences. That's where the Ne for me gets unruly!

    Here's a funny story about when my metaphorical speech caused a problem. One among many.

    I was new to a job. A new resident came just before the weekend. He was psychotic and terrified. I did my best at quick damage control before I went home for the weekend.

    I told him to find a "safe place" and nurture himself.

    When I came back Monday morning staff rushed to me in alarm and told me that X had huddled in a foetal position under the stairwell all weekend!

    They looked shocked when I began that infamous INFP inappropriate laughter!

    Oopsie. I didn't know how literal psychotics could be.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #69
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Good. I hope for the same from others. It's so easy to misunderstand others when we can only filter them through our own preferences. That's where the Ne for me gets unruly!

    Here's a funny story about when my metaphorical speech caused a problem. One among many.

    I was new to a job. A new resident came just before the weekend. He was psychotic and terrified. I did my best at quick damage control before I went home for the weekend.

    I told him to find a "safe place" and nurture himself.

    When I came back Monday morning staff rushed to me in alarm and told me that X had huddled in a foetal position under the stairwell all weekend!

    They looked shocked when I began that infamous INFP inappropriate laughter!

    Oopsie. I didn't know how literal psychotics could be.

    hahaha! (Actually, it would be hard for most people not to find that funny, even though you feel bad for the guy.)

    My husband's a special ed teacher, and he could also relate to what you've said. Some of the students he works with take everything you say literally, because they're not good at reading body language.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Yeah, well. I certainly had a suspicion that he was a "workable" human being since he would do whatever he was told! Your husband teaches special ed? Bet he has a lot of funny stories. In that line of work a person has to have a good sense of humor.

    A friend of mine had that job and some of the stuff she'd tell me had me just losin' it.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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