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[ISFP] ISFP Defensiveness and Anger

Lauren Ashley

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For the past few years I've found myself dealing with several ISFPs as friends, coworkers, boyfriends. One thing I have noticed about them (particularly the males) is how defensive they are. It appears that these ISFPs are quite self-centered in such a way that anything that is said or done they view from the lens of how it affects them or makes them feel. And if it is something unpleasant it is seen as a personal attack. Even neutral occurences can be made out to be attacking/bashing/coming after (all words they used) the ISFP personally.

For example, once I didn't say hello or talk to a close ISFP friend at work. He had previously told me that he didn't care if we spoke or not at work because he knew I was dealing with a lot. I'd had a terrible night and wasn't in a cheery mood. However, he later saw me talking to another coworker so he took this to mean I had a grudge against him and the next time I spoke to him, he flipped out. He yelled at me, calling me fake, untrustworthy, one of the most disrespectful people he ever met, etc, said he hated me. When my behavior really had nothing to do with him.

In another very recent example, my ISFP ex is trying to prevent me from being friends with his friend's girlfriend. I randomly asked for her number from him and he left me a long, scathing voicemail ranting that she is his friend and I have no business with her since we are no longer in a relationship. Again, my desire to be friends with her (and her desire to be friends with me, which he also shut down) has nothing to do with him. Meeting her through him doesn't mean he can dictate if we can be in contact.

I've read about the grip of inferior Te but this is astounding. I was raised by an INFP and almost engaged to one yet I haven't experienced this until them. I could conclude that most/all of the ISFPs I've met are unhealthy but what are the odds? And how does one work around this? Since circumstances force us to deal with each other, how can I keep their oversensitivity and lashing out at bay?
 

1487610420

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You have to decide how/where/with whom you want to spend your energy in this life.
 

SearchingforPeace

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My wife is a ISFP. Te is worse in ISFPs than INFPs, as ISFPS lack Ne and their Ni is weak.

FiNe references self and explores how others can be impacted. FiSe gets locked into its narrow mindset. Quenk discusses this in Was That Really Me?

It can be very challenging when they encounter things different from their vision.
 

Lauren Ashley

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You have to decide how/where/with whom you want to spend your energy in this life.

Absolutely, but in most of these situations I have no choice but to deal with them. One is work, the others involve losing money, friends, etc upon cutting ties. Which I have considered but is not practical right now.

Lashing out just sounds immature.

I would say most are immature even though all but one (a 24 year old) is hardly young.
 

1487610420

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Absolutely, but in most of these situations I have no choice but to deal with them. One is work, the others involve losing money, friends, etc upon cutting ties. Which I have considered but is not practical right now.



I would say most are immature even though all but one (a 24 year old) is hardly young.

it's easy to do armchair psych over the internet with strangers. maybe you can look at the common denominator with all these relationships and look for answers there.
 

Lauren Ashley

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My wife is a ISFP. Te is worse in ISFPs than INFPs, as ISFPS lack Ne and their Ni is weak.

FiNe references self and explores how others can be impacted. FiSe gets locked into its narrow mindset. Quenk discusses this in Was That Really Me?

It can be very challenging when they encounter things different from their vision.

An interesting note is that the friend in the second example is an MBTI aware INFP. She was shocked to know she and my ex have the same dominant function. I'm always amazed at how different these two types appear in reality because most types who share a dominant function seem alike, at least to me.

I looked at the Quenk piece and found it helpful and very accurate re: what causes this behavior to emerge but I guess I need more actionable tips. How do you work this out with your wife?
 

1487610420

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An interesting note is that the friend in the second example is an MBTI aware INFP. She was shocked to know she and my ex have the same dominant function. I'm always amazed at how different these two types appear in reality because most types who share a dominant function seem alike, at least to me.

I looked the Quenk piece and found it helpful and very accurate re: what causes this behavior to emerge but I guess I need more actionable tips. How do you work this out with your wife?

have you noticed the theme in the choice of lenses?
 

SearchingforPeace

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An interesting note is that the friend in the second example is an MBTI aware INFP. She was shocked to know she and my ex have the same dominant function. I'm always amazed at how different these two types appear in reality because most types who share a dominant function seem alike, at least to me.

I looked at the Quenk piece and found it helpful and very accurate re: what causes this behavior to emerge but I guess I need more actionable tips. How do you work this out with your wife?

Lots of patience by me. Nothing else works. No logic, no reasoning, no talking, nothing. Just time, sleep, space.

She can not explain herself in a logical manner and using techniques like active listening just annoys her worse.

Expect irrational blowups. Try to not let them bother you, telling yourself, no matter the words, "This is all about the ISFP and the ISFP's issues, not about me or anyone else, no matter what they say. " They project a lot and misunderstand others, a lot. That works sometimes....
 

Lauren Ashley

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Lots of patience by me. Nothing else works. No logic, no reasoning, no talking, nothing. Just time, sleep, space.

She can not explain herself in a logical manner and using techniques like active listening just annoys her worse.

Expect irrational blowups. Try to not let them bother you, telling yourself, no matter the words, "This is all about the ISFP and the ISFP's issues, not about me or anyone else, no matter what they say. " They project a lot and misunderstand others, a lot. That works sometimes....

Wow, thanks. That is a lot of the behavior I have been exhibiting. I just wonder how much they take that response to mean they are justified in their actions. I don't know, a part of me feels uncomfortable with not ever responding to false accusations, misinterpretations, and what is essentially bully-like behavior from people who claim to care about me. I just know though that when I try to explain they don't learn or realize their mistakes. Then they accuse me of interrupting their peace or causing them negative feelings.

I see you're a 9w8 sx/so. This is my ex's exact Enneatype (the friend is a 6w5 sx, likely). I'd always thought the dichotomy of this type might have added to the peacemaker/fighter dichotomy within him; he exhibits the worst temper of the bunch. Do you have any suggestions on how to approach someone of your type in disagreement?
 

SearchingforPeace

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Wow, thanks. That is a lot of the behavior I have been exhibiting. I just wonder how much they take that response to mean they are justified in their actions. I don't know, a part of me feels uncomfortable with not ever responding to false accusations, misinterpretations, and what is essentially bully-like behavior from people who claim to care about me. I just know though that when I try to explain they don't learn or realize their mistakes. Then they accuse me of interrupting their peace or causing them negative feelings.

It took me way to long to come to this understanding. And it remains a constant struggle to follow it. Seeing irrationality in others is frustrating to me. Having them try to force it on to others more so.

They can take it however they like. I just have realized that trying to use either logical or emotional arguments does not work. It only creates greater problems. It is as if they can't see or hear anything once they are in the mood.

Yes, it is bullying and abusive, and usually contrary to everything they believe, but they can't see what they are doing. The lack of Ne appears to be the key factor for this in XSFPs.

I see you're a 9w8 sx/so. This is my ex's exact Enneatype (the friend is a 6w5 sx, likely). I'd always thought the dichotomy of this type might have added to the peacemaker/fighter dichotomy within him; he exhibits the worst temper of the bunch. Do you have any suggestions on how to approach someone of your type in disagreement?

Non confrontationial, for sure. I am an easy going guy, but attack me and the w8 side comes out.....don't poke the bear.

The best thing is to keep it as cooperative problem solving. Or debating ideas. But making it personal unnecessarily will be counterproductive.

I don't mind people with contrary opinions. I love engaging with them and having a good discussion. I can merge pretty well with anyone with any background, finding common ground to build towards a consensus between us on something.

But a person shouldn't think for one second that they understand my goals or motives or even my ideals outside of very general principles. Assuming my goals, motives, or ideals, and projecting their assumptions on to me, will almost always result in two things: 1) the assumptions being very wrong, and 2) me being extremely annoyed by the person who just demonstrated they really don't know or understand me. Annoying me often brings out w8.

I don't know how much this is a 9w8 thing vs a ENFJ thing (and it is an odd combo for ENFJs), but this is me.

Approaches such as, "I was thinking about (problem a) and trying for a better solution. Here is what I thought might work, (solution 1)."

Instead of, "Why do you keep doing (problem a)? That is so stupid! The only way to do this is (solution 1)."

Both address the same problem, but one way does not make it personal to the other person and insult them and just sets forth an objective solution that can be addressed.

The first approach often results in: "Nice idea. It might work. Here are some issues with it that we should look at first, as (solution 1) may not solve (problem a)" The cooperative problem solving can move on from there. Often (problem a) really isn't the problem they believe it is, so (solution 1) is solving the wrong thing. There is often different problem that contributes to (problem a), so (solution 1) is solving the wrong thing.
 

Lauren Ashley

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It took me way to long to come to this understanding. And it remains a constant struggle to follow it. Seeing irrationality in others is frustrating to me. Having them try to force it on to others more so.

They can take it however they like. I just have realized that trying to use either logical or emotional arguments does not work. It only creates greater problems. It is as if they can't see or hear anything once they are in the mood.

Yes, it is bullying and abusive, and usually contrary to everything they believe, but they can't see what they are doing. The lack of Ne appears to be the key factor for this in XSFPs.

SearchingforPeace, thank you so much for your help. Seriously. It helps to know that I'm not the only one who has experienced this and drew the same conclusions. This is not something you can find a lot of information on. ISFPs are very easygoing, sweet, and even seeming like pushovers so that people seem to be completely unaware of this side of them and it is only discussed in theory.

It's interesting to me because of course in every day life I'm not thinking about a person's type. However, it makes me wonder if in the future when I see similar issues arising between myself and an ISFP if I should consider not pursuing the relationship. I wonder what either of us gain from doing so.

Approaches such as, "I was thinking about (problem a) and trying for a better solution. Here is what I thought might work, (solution 1)."

Instead of, "Why do you keep doing (problem a)? That is so stupid! The only way to do this is (solution 1)."

Both address the same problem, but one way does not make it personal to the other person and insult them and just sets forth an objective solution that can be addressed.

This is quite helpful. My ex was very apologetic for the incident in the OP, saying he did not want to lose his best friend and he is embarrassed that he reacts this way since I've always been so patient with him and he loves me. This is not his first time lashing out then asking for forgiveness but I accepted his apology because I'm not trying to hold anything against him and I care about him deeply also, I just want to get along.

He has been trying to make amends so we had a discussion last night. I read your comment earlier and I would have tried to weave it into the discussion but things took a turn as soon as I mentioned I wanted to find a solution. I thought with him making amends he would have been more open to trying to find a way for things to be different in the future but nope. He belittled my way of thinking saying looking into what happens between us and finding a deeper meaning is part of the problem, I should just accept it and move on. This is not the first time I have heard something like this from an ISFP (the man I was with before him was also an ISFP... what can I say, it's the IxFx softy-ness and Se that draws me in). It appears Ni bothers certain ISFPs not only because it contrasts with their Se "Go with your gut/what you see is what you get/all that matters is now" way of thinking but it also makes them feel insecure. It is somewhat familiar to them and they probably believed they were quite skilled in it. Then they encounter me. It might be how I feel with certain IxTPs - :mellow:. If so, I can see why they react so sharply and perhaps I should make myself scarce.

Anyway, I gathered the conversation was leading to him using personal information about me against me so I ended it there. I've decided to cut him off, and will be cutting off my ISFP friend soon. I blocked his number and contacts after this incident and I will be returning his stuff later. I hadn't done it before because of the previously mentioned consequences (which I'm already dreading) and because I sort of saw him like a permanent fixture in life; like a family member I didn't get along with but had to work with anyway. No doubt being blocked and seeing his stuff will incite a fury within him that I've yet to see, on top of the outside consequences, but I can't keep allowing him to lash out and apologize but not ever work on doing something different in the future.
 

SearchingforPeace

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SearchingforPeace, thank you so much for your help. Seriously. It helps to know that I'm not the only one who has experienced this and drew the same conclusions. This is not something you can find a lot of information on. ISFPs are very easygoing, sweet, and even seeming like pushovers so that people seem to be completely unaware of this side of them and it is only discussed in theory.

It's interesting to me because of course in every day life I'm not thinking about a person's type. However, it makes me wonder if in the future when I see similar issues arising between myself and an ISFP if I should consider not pursuing the relationship. I wonder what either of us gain from doing so.



This is quite helpful. My ex was very apologetic for the incident in the OP, saying he did not want to lose his best friend and he is embarrassed that he reacts this way since I've always been so patient with him and he loves me. This is not his first time lashing out then asking for forgiveness but I accepted his apology because I'm not trying to hold anything against him and I care about him deeply also, I just want to get along.

He has been trying to make amends so we had a discussion last night. I read your comment earlier and I would have tried to weave it into the discussion but things took a turn as soon as I mentioned I wanted to find a solution. I thought with him making amends he would have been more open to trying to find a way for things to be different in the future but nope. He belittled my way of thinking saying looking into what happens between us and finding a deeper meaning is part of the problem, I should just accept it and move on. This is not the first time I have heard something like this from an ISFP (the man I was with before him was also an ISFP... what can I say, it's the IxFx softy-ness and Se that draws me in). It appears Ni bothers certain ISFPs not only because it contrasts with their Se "Go with your gut/what you see is what you get/all that matters is now" way of thinking but it also makes them feel insecure. It is somewhat familiar to them and they probably believed they were quite skilled in it. Then they encounter me. It might be how I feel with certain IxTPs - :mellow:. If so, I can see why they react so sharply and perhaps I should make myself scarce.

Anyway, I gathered the conversation was leading to him using personal information about me against me so I ended it there. I've decided to cut him off, and will be cutting off my ISFP friend soon. I blocked his number and contacts after this incident and I will be returning his stuff later. I hadn't done it before because of the previously mentioned consequences (which I'm already dreading) and because I sort of saw him like a permanent fixture in life; like a family member I didn't get along with but had to work with anyway. No doubt being blocked and seeing his stuff will incite a fury within him that I've yet to see, on top of the outside consequences, but I can't keep allowing him to lash out and apologize but not ever work on doing something different in the future.

I am sorry for you that it isn't working well right now.

It is very frustrating that this type can act out in this way and almost never accept ownership of their own behavior. They are what they are and it seems a part of the package.

I don't cut connections (though I do let them die out), as inferior Ti pushes to stick with it longer than is wise.

The argument rings so familiar in my ears.

Recently my wife and I had one. I was feeling a lot of stuff and dropped my happy face and let it all show. She asked what was wrong, but started attacking me in seconds rather than listen. It bothered me a bit because she listens to lots of random people when they issuses, but she can't hear me. She got ridiculously awful and nasty.

I did something different this time, though. I never raised it again. I never talked about the topic. I never mentioned her behavior and words.

I also stopped talking to her much. I didn't put on a happy face at all. I didn't offer affectionate words. I let my feelings about her behavior be easily read, but didn't use words. I went about my life otherwise and was helpful like normal, but I just didn't hide what I was feeling with her.

A week or so later, she told me she had considered my words and would act in consideration of them. There was no verbal apology.

I have learned that it is worthless to ever expect a verbal apology, but every one is gold. But there was a definite nonverbal apology and verbal expression of a desire to act differently.

And you are right: tert Ni is a huge problem here. FiNi looping traps them.

Anyway, I would caution anyone trying a xNFJ xSFP relationship. Communications will always be troubled, so it will never be worth it. But I for one am pulled towards dom Fi. If one is constantly pulled to a small range of types, it is likely best to learn how to manage dealing with them.
 

Lauren Ashley

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I am sorry for you that it isn't working well right now.

It is very frustrating that this type can act out in this way and almost never accept ownership of their own behavior. They are what they are and it seems a part of the package.

I don't cut connections (though I do let them die out), as inferior Ti pushes to stick with it longer than is wise.

The argument rings so familiar in my ears.

[...]

Anyway, I would caution anyone trying a xNFJ xSFP relationship. Communications will always be troubled, so it will never be worth it. But I for one am pulled towards dom Fi. If one is constantly pulled to a small range of types, it is likely best to learn how to manage dealing with them.

I don't know anything about your marriage other than what you've shared here so I truly hope I do not offend by asking why you married in the first place? Surely you encountered these issues earlier on in your relationship? I could never imagine marrying my ex unless he works on this issue. I told him as much and he made an effort to do so but gave up when it became too difficult (another pet peeve of mine with the ISFPs I've known - they only go for the pleasant/easy route and equate "difficult" with "bad").

I am drawn to Ne and Fi types but Ne doms haven't been very reliable for me so I've eased off of them. My longest relationship was with an INFP and at least two of my exes are suspected ISFPs, in addition to the two confirmed more recent ISFPs. Although I simply can not see how I can work with them, as you say, if they themselves do not care to work on the dynamic? I can not be the only one putting forth effort, even if I wanted to, because it will never work.

I've been moving more toward J types as they bring the structure and knowing where things were headed that was missing with all the Ps. ENFJ seems like it could work out, what do you think?
 

SearchingforPeace

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I don't know anything about your marriage other than what you've shared here so I truly hope I do not offend by asking why you married in the first place? Surely you encountered these issues earlier on in your relationship? I could never imagine marrying my ex unless he works on this issue. I told him as much and he made an effort to do so but gave up when it became too difficult (another pet peeve of mine with the ISFPs I've known - they only go for the pleasant/easy route and equate "difficult" with "bad").

I am drawn to Ne and Fi types but Ne doms haven't been very reliable for me so I've eased off of them. My longest relationship was with an INFP and at least two of my exes are suspected ISFPs, in addition to the two confirmed more recent ISFPs. Although I simply can not see how I can work with them, as you say, if they themselves do not care to work on the dynamic? I can not be the only one putting forth effort, even if I wanted to, because it will never work.

I've been moving more toward J types as they bring the structure and knowing where things were headed that was missing with all the Ps. ENFJ seems like it could work out, what do you think?

I credit my own issues in large part. I felt pulled to my wife in ways that still don't make great logical sense, and I am a very logical person. I could explain the dynamics at play, now, after years and trying to understand, but it really wouldn't help out.

I believe that we are pulled to our shadow, the part of is we unconsciously reject. I can't be around strong Fi users without being pulled to them. If I encounter a new female FP in real life, it takes effort for me not to pay attention to them, even though I have no desire to pursue anything and never have.

Likewise, I suspect FPs are pulled to FJs.

I get along great with ENFPs, having great talks on interesting subjects, and enjoy the time, but I suspect it would still be a difficult relationship on an intimate level.

When I was younger, I didn't like other FJs much, in large part because I struggled to accept myself. These days, I enjoy spending time with most FJs and it seems like a double NFJ relationship would likely be very successful.

My eldest sister is an INFJ and we get along the best among the siblings. We have discussed how we think and see get similarities and a few differences (she is slower to process, she understands things at a deeper level, I see the broader picture much better)

I love my wife and have passed through many a cauldron of pain in our relationship. I suspect it is because I have a problem with codependency that I could stick around.

In life, we are drawn to those that can help us grow. Sometimes that means they can help us and other times it means they are a challenge to us. If you are repeatedly drawn to ISFPs, then perhaps this is because you need to grow through dealing with their crap, developing better boundaries and becoming a more complete person.
 

Lauren Ashley

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I credit my own issues in large part. I felt pulled to my wife in ways that still don't make great logical sense, and I am a very logical person. I could explain the dynamics at play, now, after years and trying to understand, but it really wouldn't help out.

[...]

My eldest sister is an INFJ and we get along the best among the siblings. We have discussed how we think and see get similarities and a few differences (she is slower to process, she understands things at a deeper level, I see the broader picture much better)

I love my wife and have passed through many a cauldron of pain in our relationship. I suspect it is because I have a problem with codependency that I could stick around.

In life, we are drawn to those that can help us grow. Sometimes that means they can help us and other times it means they are a challenge to us. If you are repeatedly drawn to ISFPs, then perhaps this is because you need to grow through dealing with their crap, developing better boundaries and becoming a more complete person.

Oh, I see. I discovered your blog so I will be stopping by there some time later to get more background, if that's okay with you.

That's funny. My older brother is an ENFJ. :) We got along very well as kids but nowadays we don't see eye to eye much.

Well, I have a pretty good idea of why I was initially drawn to the last two ISFPs, but that's a different topic...Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread because my conversations tend to go all over the place, so I'll see you on your blog.
 

lazylin

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I was in a temporary squeeze and had to move in with my friend who is an ISFP for 1 months. He had previously been in love with me, but this was a year ago and it seemed that there was not a "thing" anymore. I could live in another apartment, but the day before I was moving he brought a rental car and said he could help me stay with him for a month. After it had emerged that he wanted me to stay (forever) and that he was in love with me, I told him I was 100% NOT in love with him. I still had to stay there for 1 month. I told him I was going to move out and that all this was unpleasant, but after a lot of and but he told there was not a "thing" after all, and it was OK for me to stay.

Nevertheless . in hindsight I have been a lot with the neighbor boy (tried to stay in the house as little as possible)and then my ISFP friend has become a psco.

He sits at home all day on the couch and just looks at dark series and how to use your brain to control others stuff. I'm going to move out tomorrow, but this has been the weirdest person I've met. He is in a constant fi ni loop I have started to think, and especially in the evening, he speaks with lower and a lower voice that slows down and slows down until he just sits and whispers. He tells how badly his childhood was, how everyone neglected him, etc, etc. He becomes angry and childish if others do not take his instructions when he sits and whispers on the sofa (he does not have a job and sits and smokes the day long).

He went on a walk in the woods and got wiggled his ankle, he says that is why he has not done anything yesterday, but the problem is that he has done very little since 2 years.

I have tried to cheer him up, and tell that I always will be his friend but 100 % NOT his girlfriend, It's like the next day he thinks that I have sad I'm in love with him. He is actually delusional. And this is just not one time, I'ts many times he just doesn't get "the message", I actually think he asked me to pitty f*** him when he had one of those "I have need for others to understand me" speeches

I have tried to show him MBTI and that he should probably seize his Se.

while writing this i understand that i probably have to deal with a very depressed person...
 

Bplrbr

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I was in a temporary squeeze and had to move in with my friend who is an ISFP for 1 months. He had previously been in love with me, but this was a year ago and it seemed that there was not a "thing" anymore. I could live in another apartment, but the day before I was moving he brought a rental car and said he could help me stay with him for a month. After it had emerged that he wanted me to stay (forever) and that he was in love with me, I told him I was 100% NOT in love with him. I still had to stay there for 1 month. I told him I was going to move out and that all this was unpleasant, but after a lot of and but he told there was not a "thing" after all, and it was OK for me to stay. Nevertheless . in hindsight I have been a lot with the neighbor boy (tried to stay in the house as little as possible)and then my ISFP friend has become a psco. He sits at home all day on the couch and just looks at dark series and how to use your brain to control others stuff. I'm going to move out tomorrow, but this has been the weirdest person I've met. He is in a constant fi ni loop I have started to think, and especially in the evening, he speaks with lower and a lower voice that slows down and slows down until he just sits and whispers. He tells how badly his childhood was, how everyone neglected him, etc, etc. He becomes angry and childish if others do not take his instructions when he sits and whispers on the sofa (he does not have a job and sits and smokes the day long). He went on a walk in the woods and got wiggled his ankle, he says that is why he has not done anything yesterday, but the problem is that he has done very little since 2 years. I have tried to cheer him up, and tell that I always will be his friend but 100 % NOT his girlfriend, It's like the next day he thinks that I have sad I'm in love with him. He is actually delusional. And this is just not one time, I'ts many times he just doesn't get "the message", I actually think he asked me to pitty f*** him when he had one of those "I have need for others to understand me" speeches I have tried to show him MBTI and that he should probably seize his Se. while writing this i understand that i probably have to deal with a very depressed person...

GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE ALREADYYY. Hope you're living separately now.
 
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