[MBTI General] Need for freedom and control-freakiness?

[alicia91]

I have been talking to my husband (ENTJ) about freedom, conformity, arbitrary rules, being a control freak etc. He might not like conforming to someone else, following rules and so forth, but he generally has no problem with it, and if he sees the logic then he might actually support it. I have a real issue with some of these things and I often remind him of my need to manouver, set my own pace, etc. and he believes that this is all a crock and that it's basically just me being a control-freak. He says I grew up stubborn and spoiled because my parents let me do as I pleased, now that I'm older I refuse to cooperate with other's agendas (unless I am in agreement) because of this.

I admit that I've not given this any indepth thought, but just curious what your thoughts are. I guess what I'm asking is - is the need for freedom really about control for many of you?

BTW- I don't think that I'm a control-freak at all, that's just his interpretation. But typed me as an ISTJ (but admits I'm more creative)!

 

[6sticks]

Freedom is my most important value. If I don't have full control over my own life, everything else is secondary.

 

[Kleinheiko]

Freedom has nothing to do with control. I doubt, since you are an ISTP, that you are controlling at all; but your husband, being a J, doesn't realize that it's possible to not have a specific plan in mind ahead of time. While he's trying to go through with his plan and you interrupt him by suggesting another something you could do, if it doesn't fit into his plan, he will react negatively to your idea. He sees it as though you are trying to take control of his plan.

My dad is an STJ, and I know that when he's doing something that he has planned out, I follow his plan, and only suggest a change when I feel it's really necessary, or if I can get away with it easily enough.

 

[Usehername]

Either he doesn't value a different way of being and dealing with the world than what comforts him (xxTJness), or you aren't stepping enough out of your comfort zone to deal with reality like everyone has to with whatever their challenges are.

Likely both are true, but you'll have to be the one to judge who should be the one making more adjustments. This is the sort of thing that a RL friend is far more helpful for--we can't tell if you're biased to kindly guide you to "see the light" just as we can't tell how much your husband's xxTJness is setting the tone for what "should be standard" and if he's being domineering in an unhealthy way.

Good luck figuring it out...

 

[Jeffster]

I have a real issue with some of these things and I often remind him of my need to manouver, set my own pace, etc. and he believes that this is all a crock and that it's basically just me being a control-freak. He says I grew up stubborn and spoiled because my parents let me do as I pleased, now that I'm older I refuse to cooperate with other's agendas (unless I am in agreement) because of this.

I don't buy that. My parents definitely did NOT let me do as I pleased (INTJ dad ruled the house with iron belt) and I had and still have the desire to refuse to cooperate with others' agendas. Now sometimes I cooperate anyway, but that urge to rebel is always there, and it definitely doesn't come from being spoiled, because I wasn't. I don't think it comes from resentment of my upbringing either, I just think it's my natural tendency. I don't want to be told what to do. Ever. But I accept that sometimes I'm going to be, and when it's my boss for instance, I need to accept reality and do what I've been told. But I always try to change it up a little, make some part of it my own idea. Which at my job isn't too hard, I can change up the order I do things and still get them done.

 

[Dali]

Ah, Jeff said it; I hate being told what to do and that got me into a lot of trouble with my ENTx father, and ESTJ grandparents (maternal grandma and paternal grandpa). My ISFx mother also absorbed a lot of my father's 'Army General' tendencies so you can imagine what kind of childhood this SP underwent. In terms of teenage terrorism (stealing family car, smoking, playing truant...) I was a positive saint compared to my xSTP and ENTP elder half-brothers but they still say I gave them the hardest time simply because I quietly did what I wanted when I wanted to.

Because of the 'I', they assume us to be more passive and it poses even more of a shock for them when we 'rebel' against the agenda they've set out for us.

Does your ENTJ know about personality typing? That might make him understand you that little bit more.

 

[substitute]

he believes that this is all a crock and that it's basically just me being a control-freak. He says I grew up stubborn and spoiled because my parents let me do as I pleased, now that I'm older I refuse to cooperate with other's agendas (unless I am in agreement) because of this.

What is your response to this? Do you think you were spoilt?
It's amusing that he calls you stubborn, yet reserves the right to insist you do things his way and won't consider alternative explanations
Can you think of times when you have cooperated even when you didn't like it?

At first glance, I recognized this as unhealthy ENTJ style projection, where in fact it's they who are stubborn control freaks with relentless agendas, but they make out it's you. One of my ENTJ's went through a phase like that... took a lot of working through but he's great now.

It looks to me like you're trying to think rationally about the situation and find solutions, whilst he's just insisting 'my way or the highway'. But without more information I couldn't say whether that's really the case...

 

[alicia91]

Does your ENTJ know about personality typing?

Yes, and he was professionally typed at U of M when he did his MBA there. Still, he thinks it's an outdated piece of pop psycology and claims that the business world stopped using it 10-15 years ago. But, he usually humors me and listens when I prattle on about it. But he's really more behavioral in his approach though he recognizes that intelligence is at least partially inherited. So in his mind it's all about desire and hard work. If I ever say "it's not my nature to...." then his response would be "fine, but that means you really don't want it bad enough."

What is your response to this? Do you think you were spoilt?

Hardly spoiled. Yeah, I did what I wanted a lot of the time, but that was because my parents basically neglected me, gave me no guidance or support. Strangely enough, his parents were exactly like mine - absentee father, and a critical, depressed mother. Funny how we turned out so different.

Can you think of times when you have cooperated even when you didn't like it?

Several times per week.

At first glance, I recognized this as unhealthy ENTJ style projection, where in fact it's they who are stubborn control freaks with relentless agendas, but they make out it's you. One of my ENTJ's went through a phase like that... took a lot of working through but he's great now.

How did your ENTJ friend get over this tendency? Did your friend also have a tendency to blame others when things went wrong?

Freedom has nothing to do with control

I didn't think so, but he has a way of connecting the two.

This is the sort of thing that a RL friend is far more helpful for--we can't tell if you're biased to kindly guide you to "see the light" just as we can't tell how much your husband's xxTJness is setting the tone for what "should be standard" and if he's being domineering in an unhealthy way.

True. I was really just wondering whether the need for freedom was essentially the same as being controlling (but mainly turned inward), the same with stubborness.

 

[sarah]

Ah, Jeff said it; I hate being told what to do and that got me into a lot of trouble with my ENTx father, and ESTJ grandparents (maternal grandma and paternal grandpa). My ISFx mother also absorbed a lot of my father's 'Army General' tendencies so you can imagine what kind of childhood this SP underwent. In terms of teenage terrorism (stealing family car, smoking, playing truant...) I was a positive saint compared to my xSTP and ENTP elder half-brothers but they still say I gave them the hardest time simply because I quietly did what I wanted when I wanted to.

Because of the 'I', they assume us to be more passive and it poses even more of a shock for them when we 'rebel' against the agenda they've set out for us.
.

Wow. I could've written this same stuff. Only I never exhibited any typical outward signs of rebellion. I just quietly did my own thing regardles of what I was expected to do by others. As a teenager, I was a sneak rather than a rebel, but I never felt the need to prove rebellion to anyone (and hence never smoked, never wore shock-value clothing, never committed any crimes, never did drugs and never did anything rash just to make a point).

To this day, if anyone tries to tell me what I "ought" to do, my immediate impulse is to stonewall them. If I end up doing what they suggest, then I try to make it clear to them that it's not their telling me what to do that influenced me.

I wasn't spoiled as a kid, and fortunately I had wise parents who didn't issue orders like drill seargants. So that probably saved me from making a lot of bad decisions just so that I didn't have to feel obliged to be obedient.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[Randomnity]

I just quietly did my own thing regardles of what I was expected to do by others. As a teenager, I was a sneak rather than a rebel, but I never felt the need to prove rebellion to anyone (and hence never smoked, never wore shock-value clothing, never committed any crimes, never did drugs and never did anything rash just to make a point).

Ha, I could've written this too. I definitely wasn't spoiled as a kid, but I did do essentially what I wanted to do - my parents had a lot of rules, many of which I thought were stupid (and still do) - but I pretty much said "make me" and they couldn't, no matter how they tried. I think I was a good kid behavior-wise, I just didn't want to cooperate with rules that had no logical basis in my eyes.

I think it's a chicken and the egg thing though - I might be spoiled by my parents "letting" me do what I wanted, but they wouldn't have if I wasn't already a stubborn brat (my sisters mostly obeyed, for one thing).

I do consider myself a control freak in some ways though - mostly I just don't like other people having control over my life unless I trust their judgement (and even then..)

 

["?"]

I have a real issue with some of these things and I often remind him of my need to manouver, set my own pace, etc. and he believes that this is all a crock and that it's basically just me being a control-freak.....
I admit that I've not given this any indepth thought, but just curious what your thoughts are. I guess what I'm asking is - is the need for freedom really about control for many of you?

BTW- I don't think that I'm a control-freak at all, that's just his interpretation. But typed me as an ISTJ (but admits I'm more creative)!

Well I voice my ditto on everyone's need for freedom, however the need is different. I can work within the parameters of a structured establishment in fact I want the structure. However I do want to know how far I can push the envelope to assure that I at least feel that I have freedom.

As for your hubby's insinuation that you are a control freak Alicia, sure you are as are we all. Keep in mind that our dominant function is a judging one (Ti). Contrary to Keirsey's theory for SPs (in particularly ISPs) we do not rule by our auxiliary and in fact like many introverted types, the function may be undeveloped. So contrary to the assertion that ISTJs or even IJs in general appear controlling is only relative to how developed their auxiliary may be. The thinking functions are similar in that with any judging function we want structure regardless of the attitude.

 

[substitute]

Unless Maverick was born perfect, he probably went through phases like this himself at some point in his life. Maybe he could tell you from an insider's view, how an ENTJ can get to thinking around that sorta behaviour... he's pretty balanced now (or at least seems to be lol). In all probability he won't look at this thread though, so give himm a shout. He usually helps out

 

[Sunshine]

I hate being told what to do. I always have and I always will.

I'm the farthest thing from a control freak that there ever was. Control others? NEVER. Control what I do with my own life? YES.

ISPness. That's just what it is.

 

[Dali]

To this day, if anyone tries to tell me what I "ought" to do, my immediate impulse is to stonewall them. If I end up doing what they suggest, then I try to make it clear to them that it's not their telling me what to do that influenced me.

We are the premier rebels; in our own understated way of course.

 

[Jeffster]

One time when I was probably 7 or 8, we were at my ESTJ grandmother's house, and she brought me a bowl of ice cream after my meal. I didn't immediately say "thank you" so she took the bowl away. I said "No! Bring it back!" She did and set it down again and waited for a second. I still didn't say "thank you" so she took it away again.

I knew what she wanted me to say, and that's precisely why I couldn't do it. It was more important for me to maintain my own personal freedom by fighting her on that than it was to get the yummy tasty ice cream that awaited me if I only said two measly words.

I never had any explanation for that confrontation before I started reading the personality type stuff. Now I see it as a pretty classic SJ authority vs. SP child battle. Neither of us were gonna give an inch because we both thought our way was best. I regretted not having the ice cream, but I still wouldn't admit defeat, because she didn't get me to bow to her rules. When I tell people of other temperaments that story, they don't understand why I would deny my own pleasure just to resist being directed. It doesn't make any sense to them, but my fellow SPs know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[ptgatsby]

Have to agree with everything here re: resisting being told what to do. I did this extremely often and it was very self destructive. Mostly over it now, but... sometimes the impulse comes back.

Failed courses, lost money... done so many stupid things, now that I think back.

 

[substitute]

.....When I tell people of other temperaments that story, they don't understand why I would deny my own pleasure just to resist being directed. It doesn't make any sense to them, but my fellow SPs know exactly what I'm talking about.

your fellow P here has fought similar skirmishes and understands perfectly, for all that he's an N

 

[alicia91]

Well then, perhaps all this resisting being directed is a control issue? But rather than it being directed towards others, it's an internal thing. I guess it doesn't matter what it is, most of us SPs feel the same way.

 

[Jae Rae]

I don't see the wish to be thanked for a kindness as control-freakiness.

Letting the pizza burn because someone says "your timer just went off" (ie, it's time to take the pizza out) doesn't make sense to me, but I've known people to do this.

 

[Jeffster]

your fellow P here has fought similar skirmishes and understands perfectly, for all that he's an N

Yeah, if anyone else can understand, it's the NTs. They just might have not chosen to pick that particular battle, whereas for me it felt like I had no choice, the battle picked me.