[SP] Are SPs truly reckless hedonists?

[rhinosaur]

Yes, all SPs are reckless hedonists. They spend their days riding motorcycles -- the extraverts in bike gangs, the introverts jumping cars on dirt bikes. At night, they drink whiskey and snort coke, and can usually be found passed out on a friend's couch, unless they're also on a meth binge, in which case they can be found pacing in a friend's living room. They do all this at friends' places because no bar within a fifty mile radius will let them through the door. All SPs are also terrible at paying bills on time, so they avoid going home as much as possible. No one knows exactly where they get the money to party this hard, but many suspect they work odd hours with the local fire department or EMS.


(on a more serious note, I'm thinking about going to the coast this weekend to try to catch the hurricane. I think I'm going to miss it by a day, though. Maybe it will at least bring some rain so I can go kayaking.)

 

[Dali]

No, all SPs aren't walking disasters. Most people aren't very careful in how they define "hedonism" and other words Keirsey used to describe the SP temperament. People automatically think of words like impulsive, risk-taking, hedonistic in their worst possible light, so no wonder they think badly of our temperament.

Better definitions:

Hedonistic: focusing your mind and body on the pleasurable aspects of whatever you encounter instead of dwelling on the negatives. Also, having a strong desire to turn everything in your daily life into an object of beauty, sensual delight, and having the ability to turn challenges into fun and exciting games.

Impulsive: instant decision-making. Having no need to analyze in-depth or agonize over what has been done before or what others would do in your situation.

Risk-taking: quickly assessing a situation and making an instant decision (see impulsive) that's in line with what you see as being a desirable outcome, with no waffling around. SPs feel good about taking risks that have potential to bring about a hugely desirable situation. this is what Keirsey means by "having impact" on others -- not that you do stupid things to get attention, but rather that you take a risk that's related to something you want to achieve. Sure, SOME SPs are attracted to extreme sports, but not all of us really care about whether or not we face down death like that (some of us think ther'es a lot more pleasure to be had in creating art, making good food, growing beautiful gardens, etc, than doing death-defying stunts, and that there are many ways of getting ooos and aaaahs from others.

I'm an ISFP, and I've never damaged my body with drugs, do not have any addictions, and do not engage in extreme activities like skydiving (no desire to). I love to cook, but I eat very healthy food because I love my body and don't want to mistreat it. I love to dance and I love to exercise but I hate sports, and was never "athletic" in terms of loving ball games. I am responsible when it comes to jobs and activities I value. Sure, I have to value something in order to want to be responsible, but then, there's lots of things worth valuing out there.

So am I hedonistic? You bet! But only if you define hedonism the way I do.

Am I irresponsible? Well, I don't think I'm too bad. I keep my promises to people I care about, and I do well in pretty much everything I've felt passionate about. I have a husband (an ENFJ) whom I adore and whom I'm faithful to.

Am I an underachiever, or a mute, silent loner (stereotypes of the ISFP type)? No, I don't think so. I have a bachelo'rs degree in fine art, and a master's degree in library science, and and a job as a a professional youth services librarian and I love my job because it gives me a lot of variety, and I get to do a lot of programming for kids of all ages, including art programs. I love to draw, and majored in fine art in college. with the kids. I have a number of close friends whom I love.

I think a lot of what's written about the SP temperament is either about the extraverts or else about people who have not bothered to value personal growth. I don't think you need to have a PREFERENCE for intuition in order to want to be a lifelong learner, and I really despise how the negative examples of SPs out there have made everyone believe that this is all that people of the SP temperament can possibly accomplish.

Sarah
(new poster)

You go, girlfriend!

 

[Jeffster]

Yes, all SPs are reckless hedonists. They spend their days riding motorcycles -- the extraverts in bike gangs, the introverts jumping cars on dirt bikes. At night, they drink whiskey and snort coke, and can usually be found passed out on a friend's couch, unless they're also on a meth binge, in which case they can be found pacing in a friend's living room. They do all this at friends' places because no bar within a fifty mile radius will let them through the door. All SPs are also terrible at paying bills on time, so they avoid going home as much as possible. No one knows exactly where they get the money to party this hard, but many suspect they work odd hours with the local fire department or EMS.

I knew I could count on rhino to bring the accuracy to the topic!

Meanwhile, here I am on a Thursday morning with no clean socks for work. So, do I go foot commando or do I put on dirty socks after my shower? These are the kind of dilemmas an SP faces in life.

 

[sarah]

Me too, I think we might actually have enough ISFPs now for a basketball team.

You guys are too kind. I sometimes read messages on this list but never felt like joining because I hated all the type bigotry (you know what I mean -- all those people who spout off about how they think S=stupid and N = iNtelligent...). This thread about SPs who aren't irresponsible daredevil drug addicts finally made me feel like contributing.

I belong to a yahoo discussion group in which I'm the only active SP member. It's a good group, and the owner is very friendly, but being the only person of my temperament there can make me feel a bit.. well, defensive. I'm the "token SP", which isn't as fun as maybe it sounds. There's a lot of misperception about the Artisan temperament out there.

Sarah

 

[SolitaryPenguin]

This thread about SPs who aren't irresponsible daredevil drug addicts finally made me feel like contributing.

Sorry to chime in, but at an earlier age I was entirely an irresponsible daredevil drug addict. In my early twenties I would have smoked anything, taken any pill or snorted any substance you would stick in front of me (no needles though, ouchie). I just had to experience everything while I could. The only thing I got hooked on was heroin but I kicked its ass in about a year and a half.

Now, in my mid-30s, all I have is the occasional beer or glass of wine. I look back at those times with fond memories of some stupidly fun times, and I am constantly amazed I survived it. I don't miss those times, but I am glad I had them.

 

[Angry Ayrab]

Maybe not more hedonistic, but I am most definitely more reckless than any sp I know. I mainly know three self proclaimed ESFP's and two ESTP's really well.

 

[Dali]

You guys are too kind. I sometimes read messages on this list but never felt like joining because I hated all the type bigotry (you know what I mean -- all those people who spout off about how they think S=stupid and N = iNtelligent...). This thread about SPs who aren't irresponsible daredevil drug addicts finally made me feel like contributing.

Sarah

Ah, the N bigotry, I think I addressed that a few days ago.

I'm also frequently on the INTJ Forum where you do have a few enlightened INTJs and many that believe that they're a higher class of human. I was rather peeved in the beginning but I just find it pretty funny nowadays.

 

[sarah]

Ah, the N bigotry, I think I addressed that a few days ago.

I'm also frequently on the INTJ Forum where you do have a few enlightened INTJs and many that believe that they're a higher class of human. I was rather peeved in the beginning but I just find it pretty funny nowadays.

I'm always amused by the ones who claim that it's become a weary chore for them to communicate on a plane that the S-people can comprehend, and yet, when you look at what they write, it's mostly banal complaints about groups of people in general.

Sarah

 

[Dali]

I'm always amused by the ones who claim that it's become a weary chore for them to communicate on a plane that the S-people can comprehend, and yet, when you look at what they write, it's mostly banal complaints about groups of people in general.

Sarah

You're so stealing my thoughts aren't you?

Imagine how cool it would be if you, Sunshine, Jeffster and anyothersofourkindonhere and I met up to hangout? Totally understanding each other and and finishing each others' sentences and kinda knowing what the other's thinking and... no wait, that would be freaky.

 

[sarah]

You're so stealing my thoughts aren't you?

Imagine how cool it would be if you, Sunshine, Jeffster and anyothersofourkindonhere and I met up to hangout? Totally understanding each other and and finishing each others' sentences and kinda knowing what the other's thinking and... no wait, that would be freaky.

I gotta admit I've been so used to talking "on a plane that the N-people can understand," that I'd have to remind myself that around my fellow SPs, being lighthearted won't get me automatically branded as shallow. Heh.

Actually, I got interested in type about 5 years ago through a desire to have a better relationship with my INFJ mother. I wish we'd both known about psychological type when I was a kid/teenager. Ironic that I end up marrying an _NFJ guy. But then, what's hard to love about dominant Fe people? (I think our marriage could be described as One Giant Feeling!)

Sarah

 

[Angry Ayrab]

Lol, the anti-S world of the internet is very well played out on MBTIc and more overdone on INTJforum in the shape of the next evolutionary step of human beings. I always get a kick out of visiting INTJforum because of how many of them have this one-up-manship about being the most INTJish of the bunch. Most of the time its about one upping each other in the worst and most unhealthy qualities of being an INTJ. Many look down upon us other N types for being whatever it is they look down upon, but being an S immediettly throws you into the category of the sheeple.

I have honestly come to the conclusion that many of these people do suffer (or maybe love it) Aspergers syndrome at the least. They show typicall characteristics for the traits presented by one. Now that is very unprofessional of me, to make an E-diagnosis, but in med school, so far I have been able to dominate the class in the psych department.

Honestly, I personally love socializing in real life more than most people and can hang with anyone to speak about any topic no matter how mundane it is. The thing is, no matter how much socializing I can get, I never really get to talk about what I really like to talk about because most people find it boring (I pick up on that quick) or have nothing or can't come up with anything to input quick enough. Also, most people would take my on fire conversational method to be very offensive, I get really quick with the topic drifting and very quick with finishing others sentances. Some people are really peeved by that so I always have to sensor myself.

I, like many other weird people, get to come on here and talk with people about things that really do interest me. The internet becomes my solace to talk about anything and everything my dysfunctional brain feels like exploring simultaneously. So when I am interested in disscussing lasers and also disscussing psych at the same time, I can be found on two forums asking related questions to both sides and not being critisized for being so random. Only issue with the net that it is never quick enough for me in terms of responses, I do really more enjoy that in your face at the moment interaction.

Anyway, I know this probably doesn't make sense at all, but I just wanted to show you a glimpse of the inside of the N type (insane) mind, so you can see the other side of the fence maybe a lttle easier.

But trust me, I do understand where you are coming from with the S-types being looked down upon on the webs, and it is seriously due to a lack of maturity and willingness to understand people of all walks of life. Humans are creatures of comfort and they gravitate to what they feel most comfortable with, while trying to block out all that may poke them the wrong way without probing it to make it a part of their life so the poking turns into a pleasurable stimulus.

/rant off.

 

[Dali]

I gotta admit I've been so used to talking "on a plane that the N-people can understand," that I'd have to remind myself that around my fellow SPs, being lighthearted won't get me automatically branded as shallow. Heh.

Ah, the lighthearted bit about me actually sort of died after a 1/4 life crisis last year and I'm slowly reclaiming it. I'm also learning to somehow temper it around Ns though else they 'close off' or get this weird lost look on their faces that is actually kind of cute (the latter).

Actually, I got interested in type about 5 years ago through a desire to have a better relationship with my INFJ mother. I wish we'd both known about psychological type when I was a kid/teenager. Ironic that I end up marrying an _NFJ guy. But then, what's hard to love about dominant Fe people? (I think our marriage could be described as One Giant Feeling!)

If you don't mind my asking, what would you describe as type-specific hurdles you may have had with your SO? I ask because I'm considering getting romantically involved with an ENFJ and she seems like the prototype of her 'type'.

 

[sarah]

Lol, the anti-S world of the internet is very well played out on MBTIc and more overdone on INTJforum in the shape of the next evolutionary step of human beings. I always get a kick out of visiting INTJforum because of how many of them have this one-up-manship about being the most INTJish of the bunch. Most of the time its about one upping each other in the worst and most unhealthy qualities of being an INTJ. Many look down upon us other N types for being whatever it is they look down upon, but being an S immediettly throws you into the category of the sheeple.

I have honestly come to the conclusion that many of these people do suffer (or maybe love it) Aspergers syndrome at the least. They show typicall characteristics for the traits presented by one. Now that is very unprofessional of me, to make an E-diagnosis, but in med school, so far I have been able to dominate the class in the psych department.

Honestly, I personally love socializing in real life more than most people and can hang with anyone to speak about any topic no matter how mundane it is. The thing is, no matter how much socializing I can get, I never really get to talk about what I really like to talk about because most people find it boring (I pick up on that quick) or have nothing or can't come up with anything to input quick enough. Also, most people would take my on fire conversational method to be very offensive, I get really quick with the topic drifting and very quick with finishing others sentances. Some people are really peeved by that so I always have to sensor myself.

I, like many other weird people, get to come on here and talk with people about things that really do interest me. The internet becomes my solace to talk about anything and everything my dysfunctional brain feels like exploring simultaneously. So when I am interested in disscussing lasers and also disscussing psych at the same time, I can be found on two forums asking related questions to both sides and not being critisized for being so random. Only issue with the net that it is never quick enough for me in terms of responses, I do really more enjoy that in your face at the moment interaction.

Anyway, I know this probably doesn't make sense at all, but I just wanted to show you a glimpse of the inside of the N type (insane) mind, so you can see the other side of the fence maybe a lttle easier.

But trust me, I do understand where you are coming from with the S-types being looked down upon on the webs, and it is seriously due to a lack of maturity and willingness to understand people of all walks of life. Humans are creatures of comfort and they gravitate to what they feel most comfortable with, while trying to block out all that may poke them the wrong way without probing it to make it a part of their life so the poking turns into a pleasurable stimulus.

/rant off.

It'd sound awfully Bill Clintonesque if I said I felt your pain, and I know I really don't actually know exactly how it feels to be you, but I want you to know I really do feel terrible whenever I hear about people being criticized repeatedly throughout their life for their cognitive preferences. I mean it -- it really makes me feel sad and angry at the same time whenever I hear about how people who prefer iNtuition have had to suffer what amounts to emotional abuse from parents, siblings, classmates, bosses, etc. simply because their brains are wired differently than that of the majority.

I'd love to live inside the mind of either an NF or an NT for a day just so I could get a tiny glimpse of what it's really like, in order to better appreciate them.

I understand that it can be really boring being around people who don't share your interests. It's especially bad if they seem to resent your individual choices rather than just being live-and-let-live about it. Being the boredom-phobe that I am, I also fear being stuck in social situations where I have to converse with people I have absolutely nothing in common with and who can't even tell an entertaining story, and I imagine the same is true for iNtuitives.

I can even understand the reason for the backlash against people who prefer Sensing. It stands to reason that when some people who have been severely criticized all their lives for who they are discover that these traits are actually very awesome and worthy of celebrating, its not surprising that they sometimes feel they want to get back at their oppressors, even if it's just a symbolic gesture. I guess temporarily it "evens the score" for them. Too bad they can't spare the rest of us and just confront those actual people who have hurt them, but hey, I get where all that energy comes from, and I'm trying to not let it get to me personally.

Also, although I love to roll my eyes at the arrogance of some people in these discussion groups, it doesn't surprise me that most type discussion groups are made up of mostly NTs and NFs. Were it not for the fact that occasionally I have a slow day on the reference desk, I'd probably not spend much time on the computer myelf. I'm one of those SPs who has a huge number of hands-on projects in the works right now, not to mention books I want to read and projects I'd love to get started on... *sigh* Whenver I think about this, I feel kind of glad my hubby's an extravert who has more friends than he can possibly keep up with, and who can get into lots of deep conversations with a few special few, so I'm not left having to be his sole conversational outlet for that. My limit for "deep and meaningful" conversations is about an hour at any given time, after which I want to get up and run around screaming and being silly (or dancing, depending if there's any music available).

Sarah

 

[Dali]

Lol, the anti-S world of the internet is very well played out on MBTIc and more overdone on INTJforum in the shape of the next evolutionary step of human beings. I always get a kick out of visiting INTJforum because of how many of them have this one-up-manship about being the most INTJish of the bunch. Most of the time its about one upping each other in the worst and most unhealthy qualities of being an INTJ. Many look down upon us other N types for being whatever it is they look down upon, but being an S immediettly throws you into the category of the sheeple.

That never fails to amuse me too.

I have honestly come to the conclusion that many of these people do suffer (or maybe love it) Aspergers syndrome at the least. They show typicall characteristics for the traits presented by one. Now that is very unprofessional of me, to make an E-diagnosis, but in med school, so far I have been able to dominate the class in the psych department.

It's funny you say that; there was a thread a while ago that determined what 'social disorder' you were most likely to suffer from.

Several were 'diagnosed' with Asperger's and many seemed almost... pleased with the result... I'll never understand INTJs. lol

Anyway, I know this probably doesn't make sense at all, but I just wanted to show you a glimpse of the inside of the N type (insane) mind, so you can see the other side of the fence maybe a lttle easier.

Thank you for that candid view of your side of the fence

And you're no more insane than we are. Remember, we're the crackpots...

 

[sarah]

Ah, the lighthearted bit about me actually sort of died after a 1/4 life crisis last year and I'm slowly reclaiming it. I'm also learning to somehow temper it around Ns though else they 'close off' or get this weird lost look on their faces that is actually kind of cute (the latter).

Oh my god, I know that weird look! You say something silly and throwaway that's meant just for a quick laugh, but they stand there trying to figure out the implications of what it ll means. It can be awkward. (I've even had that with some people who view my art -- should I tell them that I really just felt like drawing tree branches because sometimes drawing tree branches is fun, or should I let them think it's got layers of profound depth to it?)

If you don't mind my asking, what would you describe as type-specific hurdles you may have had with your SO? I ask because I'm considering getting romantically involved with an ENFJ and she seems like the prototype of her 'type'.

Wow.. well, first of all, it feels wonderful to have someone really understand and appreciate you on a deep level. I think dominant Fe people are hugely generous when it comes to displaying genuine caring for others, and by caring I mean the emotonial sort, not necessarily taking care of your physical needs (although they seem to want to please on every level). I think ENFJs also take care of your feelings and validate everything you feel, even if they don't understand it or even agree with your choices. They're also somehow able to honor a person's humanity and dignity and worth and keep all of that separate from their feelings about those people's behavior, so they tend to be less judgmental than many people. They may not approve of everything the people around them do, but they won't talk about anyone in a dehumanizing sort of way.

One thing I've had to learn the hard way is that there really is no such thing as "common" sense, and that what's sensible for an ENFJ may have nothing to do with logic or what we typically view as being "sensible". I'm not the most logical person in the world either, but I have learned not to try to argue with Greg when it looks as though he feels strongly about something that's really not worth making a big deal about, or if the way he's interpreted something seems a bit off-the-wall to me. Much better to just accept that this is how he feels, and work out some sort of compromise if necessary.

I've also learned to be sensitive to his moods because he seems more comfortable talking about other people's pain than about his own personal hurts, and it's all to easy for me to get caught up in how I feel and forget that just because he's not talking about HIS feelings, that he must therefore be thinking the same as I do.

I've also learned that my hubby has a very selective memory, and that he has a tendency to recall events and decisions in a way that doesn't always match what really happened. Often his interpretation is based on what he thinks ought to have happened, or what should have been decided upon rather than what actually took place. I try to tell myself it's not worth arguing about -- much better to go with the flow and work out something we can both be happy with right here and now. I think SPs are more easily accomodating of that, since we tend to be present-oriented anyway, so the past is usually water under the bridge.

I don't know about all ENFJs, but my husband is very averse to conflict, and it pains him whenver he has to bring up a touchy subject. He'll hedge around and phrase everything so diplomatically (usualy starting out with compliments to soften things up) that I finally end up saying, "What? What did I do? Just.. just -- rrrrg! Okay, I promise nothing will be bad if you tell me, okay?"

The main thing I've learned after 6 years of marriage is that ENFJs can be remarkably easy to live with and love, but that you do need to remember to give them LOTS of verbal affection (!!!) and also remember that their feelings might be totaly different than yours and that you need to find out exactly how they feel and validate that before you make the assumption that all is well with them.

Good luck -- I think being in a love relationship with an ENFJ is an experience everyone should have. You haven't really lived until you've had your soul loved completely, and if my hubby is any indication, they're good at that sort of thing. But then, I'm biased in his favor.

Ooh, one last thing -- personal growth is HUGE. You MUST be interested in learning new things, and you MUST want on some level to become more emotionally mature, or they will feel as though they've failed to connect with you (and if the ENFJ is spiritually minded, then becoming more thoughtful and repsonsive to spirituality is important to them). Blow off their ideas and insights, and it feels to them like you're blowing them off personally. They have a real gift for being spirutal teachers and mentors, for what it's worth, and personal growth is something my husband has always said is most important to him. Hope this helps!

Sarah

 

[Giggly]

There are a lot of hedonistic people of all types.

 

[Jeffster]

You guys are too kind. I sometimes read messages on this list but never felt like joining because I hated all the type bigotry (you know what I mean -- all those people who spout off about how they think S=stupid and N = iNtelligent...). This thread about SPs who aren't irresponsible daredevil drug addicts finally made me feel like contributing.

I belong to a yahoo discussion group in which I'm the only active SP member. It's a good group, and the owner is very friendly, but being the only person of my temperament there can make me feel a bit.. well, defensive. I'm the "token SP", which isn't as fun as maybe it sounds. There's a lot of misperception about the Artisan temperament out there.

Sarah

See, I've actually kinda enjoyed being like the "token SP" on this forum. There's some others but over the last few months I've been the most active poster among them, so it kinda felt that way. And I actually got a lot of appreciation for what I brought to the board, but the funny thing is that a few members have said things to me that kinda translate to "okay, we get it. Now stop being so SP." And I'm like "no, you DON'T get it. I'm not putting on an act, I'm just being me." And it's like that still kinda blows their mind a little.

You're so Imagine how cool it would be if you, Sunshine, Jeffster and anyothersofourkindonhere and I met up to hangout? Totally understanding each other and and finishing each others' sentences and kinda knowing what the other's thinking and... no wait, that would be freaky.

Haha, I think the trouble is we might not actually SAY anything, we might just sit there looking at each other and laughing. And then be like, what are we doing sitting here? Let's go DO something!

Oh my god, I know that weird look! You say something silly and throwaway that's meant just for a quick laugh, but they stand there trying to figure out the implications of what it ll means. It can be awkward. (I've even had that with some people who view my art -- should I tell them that I really just felt like drawing tree branches because sometimes drawing tree branches is fun, or should I let them think it's got layers of profound depth to it?)

I KNOW! It's like, sometimes I want to share my experience with someone. But when I do it with an "N" person it's like they want to analyze it and give me advice or something, and I'm like "Dude! I was just telling you what happened! Not asking for advice for what to do in the future or your thoughts on the different angles that the past can be examined from or what the people might have been feeling and how I'm not putting myself in their shoes or blahblahblah."

Y'all are cracking me up. I should have been working, but this is much more fun.

 

[SaltyWench]

My lord, so many insightful replies! I'd take the time to reply to every single one of you, but I'm on a mobile device that's temperamental, so that's not a viable option right now.

Cze Cze, glad you like my name. It's kind of an inside joke, since I'm a huge Pirates of the Caribbean fan... and I tend to over-salt my food. Seriously, the salt is always by me at dinner time. My family always directs their requests for salt to me personally.

It's so good to hear from other SPs, and to know that they're not all like the pervasive stereotypes imply.

 

[SaltyWench]

@ sarah

Please stay and continue to post. You're worth your weight in gold! I love your definition of hedonism, it's the only way to live.

 

[SaltyWench]

Yes, all SPs are reckless hedonists. They spend their days riding motorcycles -- the extraverts in bike gangs, the introverts jumping cars on dirt bikes. At night, they drink whiskey and snort coke, and can usually be found passed out on a friend's couch, unless they're also on a meth binge, in which case they can be found pacing in a friend's living room. They do all this at friends' places because no bar within a fifty mile radius will let them through the door. All SPs are also terrible at paying bills on time, so they avoid going home as much as possible. No one knows exactly where they get the money to party this hard, but many suspect they work odd hours with the local fire department or EMS.


(on a more serious note, I'm thinking about going to the coast this weekend to try to catch the hurricane. I think I'm going to miss it by a day, though. Maybe it will at least bring some rain so I can go kayaking.)

I've been laughing over this all day today. You've got a gift, dude!