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  1. #1
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Default SFs: What's the best way to persuade you?

    Let's say I need to sell you on something. I might be your spouse, kid, sibling, parent, coworker, employee.

    I need to convince you of something or get you to work with me. I want us to go on a cruise; I want to sell you a car; I need you to help on a committee.

    How do you want me to approach you? What annoys you? If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?

    You can assume that I'm NT--your opposite--and that I've just been dropped on Earth. (Um, not too far from reality when you're regarding Rivercrow.... )

    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  2. #2
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Let's say I need to sell you on something. I might be your spouse, kid, sibling, parent, coworker, employee.

    I need to convince you of something or get you to work with me. I want us to go on a cruise; I want to sell you a car; I need you to help on a committee.

    How do you want me to approach you? What annoys you? If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?
    If you're asking in order to improve your technique, you might find these links useful:

    How to sell to Ts
    How to sell to Fs

  3. #3
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    If you're asking in order to improve your technique, you might find these links useful:

    How to sell to Ts
    How to sell to Fs
    Yeah, that helps.... I still wanna hear from SFs--come on! I know you're out there!
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Shimpei's Avatar
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    I tend to be passive aggressive, and I would never buy what you try to sell me in case I'm not convinced that it would be good for me too. Approach me with something really promising.
    Flatter me. Be kind and attentive.
    I have no other idea.


    What's wrong with sdalek again?

  5. #5
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Thanks for replying, Shimpei!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shimpei View Post
    What's wrong with sdalek again?
    Nothing's wrong with him. This is just a question about communications, nothing more. (Sometimes a cigar is just a good smoke, you know.)

    He'd be answering on behalf of SFs everywhere, but I have him locked in the basement studying for a major exam tomorrow.

    Until then, I guess Shimpei is the Global Voice of SFness.

    My perception of SFs is that I need to focus more on social niceties than with STs--and way more than with NTs. Also, I have to keep details and sequence in mind and build up to the big picture; for NFs, I have to present the global assist to world peace (tongue in cheek, you know) first, then go down to the details.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #6
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Damn fine question RC. Having tried in vain to persuade my ISFJ mother at several points the techniques evade me. What I did pick up is that my attempts to plant and idea as her own were met with suspicion (that could well have been my inexperience with such techniques however), the reasoning often failed also as there seemed to be suspicion that there was something missing or some reason (perhaps a social imperative) which wasn't being shown and would invalidate the idea. Although there is the reputation that SJs respond to authority figures, I couldn't necessarily see that either. Perhaps with the realisation that I was talking to an ISFJ/ ENTP I'd have gotten on better. Perhaps it's the blend that needs taking into account to gain access to both the conscious and subconscious minds. Not to manipulate but to properly address those shadows (sorry about the usage of that word, my vocabulary failed) which cause suspicion of problems. Like a check list there are certain issues that need to be addressed for each idea (preaching to the converted I know but I'm covering my ass here) a persons doubts and suspicions must be covered by the concept/ plan.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #7
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Hm. Let me try again.

    SFs, you're great people. I love your diligence and attention to detail--and your concern for the impact of what you're doing amazes me.

    I really need your help, though.

    Sometimes I leap into conversations too soon and I get excited about vague, blue sky stuff. How can I show you I'm paying attention to the details and that I'm concerned for the personal side of decisions?

    That way, we can connect better and help each other get what we each want.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  8. #8
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    I've got my ESFJ mother round my little finger! It's easy-peasy:

    - Speak calmly and nicely
    - Don't swear or use too much slang, but don't use overly pompous academic language either.
    - Be doing something for her while you're speaking, like making her a coffee or fixing her computer or something like that.
    - Cite authorities for what you're saying. Often, saying it was someone else's idea and not your own can help. Like saying it came from a teacher or someone on TV she respects.
    - Describe why you think it's a good idea using facts, and also illustrate how it'll make things nicer, happier, more convenient etc for other people, including her.
    - If money's involved, show you've thought about the costs, and preferably have something printed, a breakdown of some kind of the costs, that you can leave with her.
    - After explaining it, don't ask for an answer now. Say you'll leave it with her to give her a chance to think about it.
    - Don't speak too enthusiastically, or excitedly, or she'll be suspicious and assume there's a lot in it for you, and therefore distrust your presentation. You gotta play it cool, like it's no skin off your nose whether she agrees or not, you just thought you'd tell her cos it "occurred to you" that it might be useful to her.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  9. #9
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    OMG. No wonder I have troubles talking to SFs!
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  10. #10
    Senior Member girlnamedbless's Avatar
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    -What's the best way to persuade you?
    Well, it depends on what exactly you're talking about. If you're asking me for your help with something, no doubt about it that I will try to help you in anyway that I can. I honestly wouldn't find a reason to say "no" unless I thought what you were doing was wrong, or I was honestly not able to help you at that time. There's usually no persuasion involved in these types of situations. However, if I see that you're trying to sell me something (like a car or a house), and I really, really don't want it- I will say no, and I'll mean it. Basically, I think that if I care about you and I consider us friends, I'll do anything I can to make you happy.

    -How do you want me to approach you?
    Smile... be kind. Show me that you're interested in what I'm saying. Give examples and be clear. Instead of being indirect, be direct. An example of this happened last night. I picked my iNtutive friend up to go out with a few other people, when her boyfriend called, and she asked him to hang out with us. He told her he didn't have a ride. So my friend looks at me and goes, "Ahhh my boyfriend doesn't have a ride." She was expecting me to offer and say, "I can get him, no problem." Which wasn't really a problem at all. However, I would have liked it more if she had said "Sarah, do you think you can pick my boyfriend up too, because he doesn't have a ride?" For me, it makes a difference in how someone asks me something. I am more pleased when someone asks up straight up for something.

    -What annoys you?
    The things that kind of annoys me sometimes with Ns is their vagueness... I need examples and lots of them. Tell me HOW something will better peoples' lives. If you need something, state it clearly... I can't stress that enough.

    -If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?
    Basically just make it clear so I can understand it. If you're giving me directions, tell me what color your house is. Ask me if I need clarification by saying simple things like, "So you got it?" or even "Are you good on that?" These little things can help a lot.

    -How can I show you I'm paying attention to the details and that I'm concerned for the personal side of decisions?
    During a conversation, you can do a lot of things to show me that you're actually enjoying and paying attention to details. For example, say things like "Yeah, I know what you mean!" because a lot of the times when I'm talking to Ns, they just don't respond to what I'm saying.. like they're in their own little world. A lot of the times I have to ask them if they heard what I was saying. Another thing you can do is ask questions. I personally like it when I say something and someone asks me questions about what I said, such as "Ah, what did you do after?" because it shows me that they are interested in what I am saying and care about the details. You can show you're concerned for the more personal side of decisions by, again, just asking questions, but more geared around feelings. Ask me how something makes me feel, if I need anything, etc.
    I bet they'll put something in the air tonight, just to light your face.

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