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  1. #11
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Yeah, and if you can use your NP-ish scattiness to give over an impression of benevolent uselessness and dependence on her superior skills, sometimes that can be a way through - bringing out the 'mommy' in them.

    But you have to be careful with this - if you do it wrong, it might actually just annoy her and she'll resent this idea she'll get that you just take her for granted and don't even try yourself.
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  2. #12
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by girlnamedbless View Post
    -What's the best way to persuade you?
    Well, it depends on what exactly you're talking about. If you're asking me for your help with something, no doubt about it that I will try to help you in anyway that I can. I honestly wouldn't find a reason to say "no" unless I thought what you were doing was wrong, or I was honestly not able to help you at that time. There's usually no persuasion involved in these types of situations. However, if I see that you're trying to sell me something (like a car or a house), and I really, really don't want it- I will say no, and I'll mean it. Basically, I think that if I care about you and I consider us friends, I'll do anything I can to make you happy.
    The "asking for help" thing is something that really doesn't come naturally to me. It feels like an admission of weakness and (ooh, bad for NTs) hints of incompetence. (You watch--if you want to get an NT emotional, question competency.)

    On the other hand, it is being factual. I wouldn't be asking for help if I didn't need help. Oh--and I'm admitting that I'm human. Check.
    -How do you want me to approach you?
    Smile... be kind. Show me that you're interested in what I'm saying. Give examples and be clear. Instead of being indirect, be direct. ... For me, it makes a difference in how someone asks me something. I am more pleased when someone asks up straight up for something.
    , , and . (Now I have a visual that'll stick.)
    -What annoys you?
    The things that kind of annoys me sometimes with Ns is their vagueness... I need examples and lots of them. Tell me HOW something will better peoples' lives. If you need something, state it clearly... I can't stress that enough.
    Okay--I'm with you on the vagueness thingie. Sometimes other Ns' vagueness bugs me too--and other Ns will sometimes assume that all Ns' make the same intuitive leaps from the same data. But iNtuiting is a subjective process (so is Sensing, for that matter).
    -If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?
    Basically just make it clear so I can understand it. If you're giving me directions, tell me what color your house is. Ask me if I need clarification by saying simple things like, "So you got it?" or even "Are you good on that?" These little things can help a lot.
    Information, details, and feedback.

    How about this? Does it work to give you the details that I've got and ask if you need more?
    -How can I show you I'm paying attention to the details and that I'm concerned for the personal side of decisions?
    During a conversation, you can do a lot of things to show me that you're actually enjoying and paying attention to details. For example, say things like "Yeah, I know what you mean!" because a lot of the times when I'm talking to Ns, they just don't respond to what I'm saying.. like they're in their own little world. A lot of the times I have to ask them if they heard what I was saying. Another thing you can do is ask questions. I personally like it when I say something and someone asks me questions about what I said, such as "Ah, what did you do after?" because it shows me that they are interested in what I am saying and care about the details. You can show you're concerned for the more personal side of decisions by, again, just asking questions, but more geared around feelings. Ask me how something makes me feel, if I need anything, etc.
    I can ask questions.

    You know, all this reinforces to me why Active Listening is such a useful technique to learn. It forces me to be in the moment and it helps me maximize the information you're providing me, so I get to feed my thinking process.

    Being aware of feelings is harder--I've spent three decades being barely aware of my own feelings! Basic etiquette lessons have helped me appear more in touch, tho--even if I don't have one clue why I'm saying these things, it makes you feel better and it makes it easier for us to communicate. Cool! That's a win:win!
    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Yeah, and if you can use your NP-ish scattiness to give over an impression of benevolent uselessness and dependence on her superior skills, sometimes that can be a way through - bringing out the 'mommy' in them.

    But you have to be careful with this - if you do it wrong, it might actually just annoy her and she'll resent this idea she'll get that you just take her for granted and don't even try yourself.
    Er....... That explains something. A project manager I worked with was an ESFJ. I do my best problem-solving as an INTP, but I do my people/project management as an xNTJ (yeah, not a great improvement, and the more I extravert, the tireder I get). When I was on one of her projects as a subject matter expert, I INTPed all over--she was furious at me, because she wanted the extraverted thinker to drive the tech show while she kept people happy. (She was a lousy tech-PM, but good at managing most people [not INTPs, but, meh].)
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  3. #13
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Wow.

    I was part of an SF:NT discussion once like this in real life. 5 NTs and three SFs. This thread and the discussion revealed the same thing--the divides exist but are not insurmountable.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  4. #14
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    - If money's involved, show you've thought about the costs, and preferably have something printed, a breakdown of some kind of the costs, that you can leave with her.
    - After explaining it, don't ask for an answer now. Say you'll leave it with her to give her a chance to think about it.
    - Don't speak too enthusiastically, or excitedly, or she'll be suspicious and assume there's a lot in it for you, and therefore distrust your presentation. You gotta play it cool, like it's no skin off your nose whether she agrees or not, you just thought you'd tell her cos it "occurred to you" that it might be useful to her.
    I do all three of these things when presenting requests to my INTP and it's pretty effective. Sometimes he will go along just so he doesn't have to actually read the printed up breakdown of expenses.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #15
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Yeah--some of those seem like good practices for dealing with any IxTxs, too.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #16
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    ESFP:

    - Be goodlooking and have a nice ass
    - Speak eloquently
    - Be reasonable and logical in your conclusions
    - Weak nice clothes

    ISFJ.

    - Be blunt and straightforward in your dealings
    - Laugh a lot and make jokes, even if they're bad it doesn't really matter
    - Don't dress too well
    - Having a nice ass can help, even if most ISFJs will deny it

    Generally SFs quickly catch any attempt at emotional manipulation, and/or react with hostility to pushiness.

  7. #17
    Junior Member Spartan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Let's say I need to sell you on something. I might be your spouse, kid, sibling, parent, coworker, employee.

    I need to convince you of something or get you to work with me. I want us to go on a cruise; I want to sell you a car; I need you to help on a committee.

    How do you want me to approach you? What annoys you? If I need to give you information, how do you want me to present it?

    You can assume that I'm NT--your opposite--and that I've just been dropped on Earth. (Um, not too far from reality when you're regarding Rivercrow.... )


    send me a letter about the benefits of what you are selling and why I should buy it. If I am interesting I will call you and make contact with you.

    I don't particularly like when salesman approach me face to face with offers.

    I need to make a thoughtout decision and have a good reason before I buy something.
    "Move swiftly."

  8. #18
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    Wow great thread. Im an INFP who recently had a 2 month relationship with an ISFP and communication was always the biggest problem. Wish I would have known this 2 weeks ago. Any advice on talking to an ISFP who thinks you overanalyze everything (true N in action) and doesnt hear what she says?

  9. #19
    Senior Member sriv's Avatar
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    This all seems very manipulative and tricky. Are you asking what disguise to wear to easiest scam an SJ? It does not sound moral since you are not being yourself when you do it. I love it. Continue.

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