[MBTI General] S descriptions of Ns?

[runvardh]

My ISFP little brother is into computers, visual art, and music. He's not great with sports, but he tends to gather friends that he builds up. Good kid even though he's constantly living in pain.

 

[Quinlan]

Sorry for being a crank, people, but I'm starting to wish I never joined MBTIcentral -- reading all the bias against Ss (SPs in particular) makes me angry.

Please don't go anywhere, you are a great, you post all the things I want to say but can't find the words to. Your posts have been very valuable in helping me understand myself and my type. I think a lot of your posts should be put in a thread and stickied to set people straight on the whole S vs N thing. Although I do understand a lot of iNtuitives might have built up angst against S's over the years, that does not excuse them from ignorance.

 

[entropie]

Although I do understand a lot of iNtuitives might have built up angst against S's over the years, that does not excuse them from ignorance.

Yea, they can give some back now.

Dont you come up with good ideas, please ?!

 

[Jeffster]

Sarah, it's a good thing you joined, you say some cool stuff. I guess I don't see specifically what you mean by a "bias" against Sensors on the forum. I think there is definitely some ignorance, simply because we are the minority here, but I think MOST of the members want to understand people that are different than them, and that's a big part of the reason they're here. There are a few that see this as their therapy room for all the abuse they have suffered from the tyrannical S's who have traumatized them their whole life, but I think those people are actually a pretty small minority. Some people make jokes, but I think they are mostly in good fun, so I guess I'd have to see some specific examples (like the good Sensor I am ) before I would agree with what you say about bias.

The other thing I'd say is that, the people at my work that I have tested, it has been the opposite of your experience, almost all of them have come out S's. And almost all of them J's. It's the second part I have trouble believing, so I don't know if the problem is that at work they are thinking too much about having to be organized in their job so they are seeing themselves more that way or if the test questions (mostly I have used the Keirsey sorter) make P sound too irresponsible and childish. I suspect it may be some of both. Several of the people who have taken it, I believe the J result without any trouble, but others I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.

 

[millerm277]

Sorry for being a crank, people, but I'm starting to wish I never joined MBTIcentral -- reading all the bias against Ss (SPs in particular) makes me angry.

I'll be honest. I don't really see it. Mis-interpreting what some of our traits are, maybe, but I don't see a bias against any particular type.

 

[wolfy]

Please don't go anywhere, you are a great, you post all the things I want to say but can't find the words to. Your posts have been very valuable in helping me understand myself and my type. I think a lot of your posts should be put in a thread and stickied to set people straight on the whole S vs N thing. Although I do understand a lot of iNtuitives might have built up angst against S's over the years, that does not excuse them from ignorance.

I agree. Don't leave us! I love your posts.

 

[Sunshine]

Thank you, entropie, this is really important. I'm so sick of hearing people talk about "Ns" adn "Ss" as though a preference for one means you can't do both!

I realize this thread was started a long time ago, but I just feel the need to say that yes, everyone I know who is interested in type identifies first with the iNtuitive descriptions. EVERYONE. Pretty remarkable, huh? And only later do some of them come to realize that they might prefer sensing, thanks to reading more accurate descriptions of the 16 types. I myself can't score as having a preference for sensing on many type tests, given the way they are worded, and yet I know now that I fit the ISFP pattern. Something's clearly wrong with the way these tests are worded, seeing as how so many people are being misled by them.

Secondly, I majored in fine art in college. Meaning, I didn't just make "pretty pictures", my art was definitely communicating my worldview. I can't stress this enough -- all fine art conveys a worldview, and people like me who prefer Sensing can and do produce fine art! Why on earth would anyone here believe that _S_s don't have feelings or opinions about the world that we want to communicate visually? It's insulting! And what on earth made so many people here believe that SPs can't communicate visually? This is the sort of thing that makes me so mad that I want to dispense with the whole idea of psychological type altogether -- I'm so tired of the misinformation about what it means to prefer Sensing, and I'm so sick of seeing person after person talk about Sensing in a degraded, insulting way.

Wouldn't you agree that the act of creating tangible, visual works of art with your hands is a sensory pastime? NO, it's not just that we "play sports" with art materials, as someone here suggested. (that's insulting too!) SPs like me can and do feel passionately about the things and ideas we care about, and we want to say something through their art. You DON'T have to have a preference for abstract language in order to communicate your feelings and opinions visually!!!!

I'm sorry if I sound offensive here, but threads like this that generate commetns that totally diss _S_s really make my blood boil.

For the record, my art could be summed up as being about displaying my feelings in a way that communicates visually that all of humanity faces similar feelings, whether they choose to display them or hide them. Also, I love to highlight beauty in what I find in my daily life so ast to make viewers sit up and take notice of what htey might ordinarily. Although my art looks different than Georgia O'Keeffe's giant flowers and skeletons (which make you sit up and take notice), THAT's the sort of message comes through very clear is in my collages and drawings. (Claude Monet did something similar -- if you've ever been to the Musee D'Orsay and seen his series of paintings of Rouen cathedral at a dozen different times of day, know that he wanted to call your attention to something you'd ordinarily not even notice but that he wanted to communicate to you was well worth valuing and appreciating.)

So what differences DO I see between myself and people who actually prefer iNtuition (not counting all the obviously mistyped people out tehre -- and there seem to me to be legions of them!):

1. I tend to take what people say literally instead of figuratively, unless it's clear to me that they are making a metaphor (yes, I DO understand metaphors -- I'm not stupid!)
2. I don't tend to take specifics and diffuse them to an abstract level unless there's a practial reason for doing so.
3. I am usually focused on practical ways I can make a visible difference to other people's lives, as opposed to thinkign about ways I could change things way down the road. If people talk about ideas for the future around me, I get impatient if I can't start on something related to making these ideas real right away.
4. I feel driven to accomplish tangible goals rather than trying to be diplomatic or theoretical, unless there's an urgent need for tact and diplomacy -- and then I try my best but feel impatient with that. This does not mean I'm incapable of thinking theoretically -- it simply means I have a preference for tangible-related activities over those taht aren't. Please understand this is just a preference, not a limitation.
5. When my brain is on auto-pilot, I'm constantly thinking of ways I can visually improve my surroundings, make others feel good, or impact others positively on a psychological level (leave them better off for having encountered me), or make things happen that relate to my values. I'm dominant introverted Feeling, people -- I have a strong set of internal values just like the NFs do!!! I don't know how this differs specifically from what iNtuitives do, but I notice that those who ACTUALLY prefer iNtuition as opposed to those who only think they do tend to be much more abstract-minded than I am. They don't really focus on the here-and-now, and often miss opportunities to make an impact on others right this moment. (I bet someone who thinks they prefer iNtuition but who probably actually is an SP is going to disagre with me on that and not realize that they've mistyped themselves.)

Sorry for being a crank, people, but I'm starting to wish I never joined MBTIcentral -- reading all the bias against Ss (SPs in particular) makes me angry.

Sarah
ISFP

+100000000000000000000000

 

[Sunshine]

I'll be honest. I don't really see it. Mis-interpreting what some of our traits are, maybe, but I don't see a bias against any particular type.

You might want to get your eyes checked.

Please don't go anywhere, you are a great, you post all the things I want to say but can't find the words to. Your posts have been very valuable in helping me understand myself and my type. I think a lot of your posts should be put in a thread and stickied to set people straight on the whole S vs N thing. Although I do understand a lot of iNtuitives might have built up angst against S's over the years, that does not excuse them from ignorance.

Yeah, same here!! Sarah, you are awesome.

My ESFP son is extremely creative... but what I see with SP types who are creative is that they tend to enjoy putting together sensory/tactile stimulations in new and different ways, without necessarily a deep vision in mind. With my son, it's like you just upended a bunch of objects / puzzle pieces together, and he takes them all and makes something out of it just because he likes how it feels or looks, then he can mix them all back together and do it again, without real rhyme or reason.

It's like he's experiment with creating different combinations of things for the pure sensation and experience of doing so.

An ISFP friend of mine used to drive me batty when we would eat together. When he was full, he'd take the leftover food and condiments from his plate and whomever elses (usually without asking) and make designs on his plate and mix them up and whatnot, sometimes making a disgusting mess. He just got a kick out of it. He was being creative and seeing what he could come up with and what happened.

Sometimes SP artists (was Mozart ISFP?) *can* have some real coherency and structure, such as with Mozard's music. It's usually to evoke some sort of tangible feeling state -- an aesthetic quality of some sort.

An N, in contrast, usually has some conceptual purpose or meaning in what they are doing and they are using sensory things in order to evoke that deeper meaning. It's less about the sensory impressions and experience and random combinations of things, and more about organizing the things to suggest something else entirely. There's like a method to the madness, and the tools and items are being used to peer into something else... the art is the "signifier" and the signpost, and NOT the actual end result itself.

That has just been my experience and seems to make sense, if we are going to generalize at all.

You are wrong.

 

[MacGuffin]

You are wrong.

I was going to ask how Jennifer was wrong, but I agree with Sunshine.

 

[heart]

My ISFP friend has some great N, she just doesn't prefer to spend the majority of her time there.

Most of the time when N people are are venting about the S types in their lives that they came to grief with they are talking about people who had very little appreciation, patience or respect for N, not all S types. Everybody is in different learning stages on this board.

 

[Sunshine]

Three things:

1. A bias
2. People just venting and blaming it on S
3. People not fully understanding what S is and isn't and what S types are and are not like.

When people are biased or just venting it's usually obvious so I actually don't mind it as much (Not that I want to promote it!) as when people believe/spread incorrect information.

I'm really glad that Sarah cleared things up that seemed to be misunderstood.

 

[Tallulah]

Three things:

1. A bias
2. People just venting and blaming it on S
3. People not fully understanding what S is and isn't and what S types are and are not like.

When people are biased or just venting it's usually obvious so I actually don't mind it as much (Not that I want to promote it!) as when people believe/spread incorrect information.

I'm really glad that Sarah cleared things up that seemed to be misunderstood.

Hers was a very good post. I think most Ns don't really have a clear understanding of what it's like to be S. It's good when we get an explanation like Sarah's, so that we aren't just forced to make up in our heads what it must be like.

Another factor is that SJs in particular tend to make up a majority in our society, or at least it feels like they do. A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers--they can't always account for their time and efforts with something concrete, etc. So when they find MBTI and discover there's a reason they're actually different, they cut loose with the venting about prior experiences in the SJ world that have caused them pain. It's a major generalization, of course, and not always accurate, since it's venting.

I definitely understand your frustration, though.

 

[Quinlan]

A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers

The SJs usually aren't too fond of males who prefer F and P either.

 

[sarah]

My ISFP friend has some great N, she just doesn't prefer to spend the majority of her time there.

Most of the time when N people are are venting about the S types in their lives that they came to grief with they are talking about people who had very little appreciation, patience or respect for N, not all S types. Everybody is in different learning stages on this board.

yes, thank you heart, this is quite true. I've said this before but I'll say it again -- I'm really sorry to hear that so many of you have been emotionally abused by insensitive people who didn't know how to value your preference for iNtuition and all that it adds to your temperament. I can well believe that hurt and I'm not surprised at people who have lasting grudges as a result.

But I would just like to say also...

I think unconscious bias is inescapable, seeing as how type is inborn. Whenever we try to imagine what it must be like to be someone else, we're bound to get important details wrong. If I went around confidently creating website articles and writing posts to discussion lists about what I believe it's like to have a preference for iNtuition, chances are most of you would say my beliefs are one-sided, wrong in many ways, and don't come close to doing justice to your intelligence, your talents and your complexity. Is it any surprise then that this is exactly how those of us who prefer Sensing feel when they witness _N_s confidently writing down and sharing their assumptions about what it's like to be us?

Many people would rather get free information than pay for it, and I have no doubt a lot more people get "information" about type through websites and discussion list posts instead of buying quality literature on the subject and taking the time to read it carefully and thoughtfully. So whatever misinformation here is spread about _S_s is what gets cemented in people's brains as fact. Such a shame, don't you think?

What astonishes me about this list is this: There are some very articulate SJs and SPs on this list who don't seem to me to be at all lacking in intelligence or the ability to communicate well with _N_s. Moreover, they all seem willing to participate seriously in discussions about type preferences. And yet, MBTI Central still ends up with with hundreds of posts like the ones earlier on this thread, in which a bunch of people who say they prefer iNtuition "dumb down" what it's like to prefer Sensing and talk about their beliefs like it's all provable fact.

If the reason for this is related to people wanting to carving out a unique identity for themselves, I can understandat least why there's so much of it. But in real life, a number of us who prefer Sensing and who aren't stupid can actually nicely compliment those who prefer iNtuition as long as there is mutual respect and both parties are willing to suspend their judgment and not make snap judgments. Nobody here needs to feel their identity is compromised just because those of us who prefer Sensing insist that we're every bit as intelligent and complex as you are. Nor does anyone here need to pretend (or imagine) they know all about what it's like to prefer Sensing when there are a number of well-spoken SJs and SPs here to actually ask questions of.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[sarah]

Hers was a very good post. I think most Ns don't really have a clear understanding of what it's like to be S. It's good when we get an explanation like Sarah's, so that we aren't just forced to make up in our heads what it must be like.

Another factor is that SJs in particular tend to make up a majority in our society, or at least it feels like they do. A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers--they can't always account for their time and efforts with something concrete, etc. So when they find MBTI and discover there's a reason they're actually different, they cut loose with the venting about prior experiences in the SJ world that have caused them pain. It's a major generalization, of course, and not always accurate, since it's venting.

I definitely understand your frustration, though.

Thanks Tallulah and everyone else who's responded. I do appreciate that nobody took my rant the wrong way. It was long-winded and vehement, but I'm glad my point didn't get lost behind all the emotion.

We all know that _S_s vary widely in intelligence, variety of interests, and ability to communicate with _N_s about topics we find mutually interesting. I know that as well as you do. So why anyone here should talk about us as though we're all on the "dumb" end of the scale is beyond me. For every person you've met who probably prefers Sensing and who seems lacking in intelligence or thoughtfulness, there are others of us whom you would not be able to immediately identify as having a preference for Sensing. When people rant about "Sensors," my mind understands that they're talking about those on the dull, boring or dumb end of the scale, but my feelings don't agree with my mind -- it still FEELS offensive to read that we are all being lumped into such a negative category of people.

Sarah
ISFP

 

[Jeffster]

Sarah, since we're all intelligent and complex, and mutually respectful and all that stuff, I feel like I can safely inform you that writing "iNtuition" is kinda gay.

 

[Kasper]

I think most of the angst about N v S is based in everyday frustrations, anyone who genuinely believes a S preference is inferior is deluded. Recon Tallulah said it best;

Hers was a very good post. I think most Ns don't really have a clear understanding of what it's like to be S. It's good when we get an explanation like Sarah's, so that we aren't just forced to make up in our heads what it must be like.

Another factor is that SJs in particular tend to make up a majority in our society, or at least it feels like they do. A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers--they can't always account for their time and efforts with something concrete, etc. So when they find MBTI and discover there's a reason they're actually different, they cut loose with the venting about prior experiences in the SJ world that have caused them pain. It's a major generalization, of course, and not always accurate, since it's venting.

I definitely understand your frustration, though.

It's venting, misunderstanding and frustration all rolled into one. That said I SPs

And Jeff you know I think you're awesome but I got to say I don't like it when people use the word 'gay' as an insult.

 

[Bella]

Everything Sarah said.........ever.

 

[proteanmix]

Yay, Sarah!!!

I love it when you IFPs get angry.

 

[Salomé]

How do you go about introducing the S/N dimension to Sensers and are you successful ?

If they fall asleep/become impatient in the middle of said lecture, they are likely to be S.

Actual vs. possible seems most useful dichotomy.

everyone I know who is interested in type identifies first with the iNtuitive descriptions. EVERYONE.

- the clue was in "interested in type"

Tests which are not self-selecting suggest that Ns number no more than 1 in 7 of general population

We're just more interested in this useless sorta sh*t K?

I think unconscious bias is inescapable

it's not unconscious - MBTI relies on clearly expressed conscious functional preferences i.e. bias

I have no doubt a lot more people get "information" about type through websites and discussion list posts instead of buying quality literature on the subject and taking the time to read it carefully and thoughtfully.

Most (all?)of the literature (thoughtful or otherwise) published on the topic is produced by INs.
Maybe you should write a book for Ss.
(Don't expect to get rich).

I don't accept that most Ns disrespect or devalue Ss. Many I know would prefer to be that way inclined, myself included (I want to be an Artisan - it's funner) but you are what you are.

Sarah, since we're all intelligent and complex, and mutually respectful and all that stuff, I feel like I can safely inform you that writing "iNtuition" is kinda gay.

i know I shouldn't, but i did