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  1. #131
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Sarah, since we're all intelligent and complex, and mutually respectful and all that stuff, I feel like I can safely inform you that writing "iNtuition" is kinda gay.

    Point taken, despite my not believing that the're anything the matter with being gay (as in homosexual.) I guess I'm just used to seeing it written that way because of another type discussion list I'm on.

    Sarah
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  2. #132
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Typical S - resorts to the scatological.
    Don't worry, I understand. You thought you were correct, and have to face that you might not be. No need to take it out on others, however.

    FWIW, the official statistics are 1/3 to 1/4 Ns, as defined by random sampling by CAPT, the official research arm of MBTI/CPP. You may of been looking at either younger populations, older data, or education-biased samples. Older books especially are prone to this.

  3. #133
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    FWIW, the official statistics are 1/3 to 1/4 Ns, as defined by random sampling by CAPT, the official research arm of MBTI/CPP. You may of been looking at either younger populations, older data, or education-biased samples. Older books especially are prone to this.
    I know you think you won the point. But you actually just proved mine.

    Good example of how getting lost in the detail means you can miss the big picture.

    To wit: Ns are in the minority.
    I thank you. :bows:

    (PS No statistics are completely random)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #134
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    If they fall asleep/become impatient in the middle of said lecture, they are likely to be S.
    If they fall asleep in the middle of one of your lectures, it means your delivery of the information was very boring, or you presented "S" to them in an insulting or patronizing fashion, or you failed to tell them how any of what you're talking about could have practical applications, or possibly all of that at once.


    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Tests which are not self-selecting suggest that Ns number no more than 1 in 7 of general population. We're just more interested in this useless sorta sh*t K?
    No, it means that everyone I know who's ever gotten into a discussion on type thinks initially that they have a preference for intuition DESPITE it appearing to me that a lot of them obviously have the SP or SJ temperament.


    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Most (all?)of the literature (thoughtful or otherwise) published on the topic is produced by INs.
    Maybe you should write a book for Ss.
    (Don't expect to get rich).

    I've actually thought about creating a website or a blog for ISFPs about our type preferences, but I figure it would be such a hassle to get emails from N-people suggesting to me that can't possibly be an SP because of various reasons that have nothing to do with actual type preferences.


    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    I don't accept that most Ns disrespect or devalue Ss. Many I know would prefer to be that way inclined, myself included (I want to be an Artisan - it's funner) but you are what you are.

    Thanks, I appreciate that, but I doubt that any of you would really want to give up the elite status that "N" in your type code is believed to come along with. Would you really want to read messages questioning the intelligence and creativity and range of talents of your type all the time? I don't notice Ss going around spreading all sorts of crazy "data" about Ns. Really, I'm referring to all the misinformation out there that's being paraded as fact. Whomever is writing all of that is doing all of us a big dissservice.

    Sarah
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  5. #135
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    I know you think you won the point. But you actually just proved mine.
    I didn't even read your posts, sorry, so I don't know what point you are referring to. I just noticed the reference when scrolling by and was curious - I was out to correct your or my knowledge by finding out where the statistic came. It's my way of advancing my knowledge forward and I prefer to validate new information.

    I highly suggest it before coming to conclusions, big picture or not.

    edit: Ok, I read your post. What point did you prove again...? The frequencies of Ns has nothing to do with who likes type, as far as I can tell (the statement could be made with 1%, 50% or 99%).

  6. #136
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    edit: Ok, I read your post. What point did you prove again...? The frequencies of Ns has nothing to do with who likes type, as far as I can tell (the statement could be made with 1%, 50% or 99%).
    This is her point:

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    To wit: Ns are in the minority.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

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  7. #137
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Thank you, entropie, this is really important. I'm so sick of hearing people talk about "Ns" adn "Ss" as though a preference for one means you can't do both!

    I realize this thread was started a long time ago, but I just feel the need to say that yes, everyone I know who is interested in type identifies first with the iNtuitive descriptions. EVERYONE. Pretty remarkable, huh? And only later do some of them come to realize that they might prefer sensing, thanks to reading more accurate descriptions of the 16 types. I myself can't score as having a preference for sensing on many type tests, given the way they are worded, and yet I know now that I fit the ISFP pattern. Something's clearly wrong with the way these tests are worded, seeing as how so many people are being misled by them.

    Secondly, I majored in fine art in college. Meaning, I didn't just make "pretty pictures", my art was definitely communicating my worldview. I can't stress this enough -- all fine art conveys a worldview, and people like me who prefer Sensing can and do produce fine art! Why on earth would anyone here believe that _S_s don't have feelings or opinions about the world that we want to communicate visually? It's insulting! And what on earth made so many people here believe that SPs can't communicate visually? This is the sort of thing that makes me so mad that I want to dispense with the whole idea of psychological type altogether -- I'm so tired of the misinformation about what it means to prefer Sensing, and I'm so sick of seeing person after person talk about Sensing in a degraded, insulting way.

    Wouldn't you agree that the act of creating tangible, visual works of art with your hands is a sensory pastime? NO, it's not just that we "play sports" with art materials, as someone here suggested. (that's insulting too!) SPs like me can and do feel passionately about the things and ideas we care about, and we want to say something through their art. You DON'T have to have a preference for abstract language in order to communicate your feelings and opinions visually!!!!

    I'm sorry if I sound offensive here, but threads like this that generate commetns that totally diss _S_s really make my blood boil.

    For the record, my art could be summed up as being about displaying my feelings in a way that communicates visually that all of humanity faces similar feelings, whether they choose to display them or hide them. Also, I love to highlight beauty in what I find in my daily life so ast to make viewers sit up and take notice of what htey might ordinarily. Although my art looks different than Georgia O'Keeffe's giant flowers and skeletons (which make you sit up and take notice), THAT's the sort of message comes through very clear is in my collages and drawings. (Claude Monet did something similar -- if you've ever been to the Musee D'Orsay and seen his series of paintings of Rouen cathedral at a dozen different times of day, know that he wanted to call your attention to something you'd ordinarily not even notice but that he wanted to communicate to you was well worth valuing and appreciating.)

    So what differences DO I see between myself and people who actually prefer iNtuition (not counting all the obviously mistyped people out tehre -- and there seem to me to be legions of them!):

    1. I tend to take what people say literally instead of figuratively, unless it's clear to me that they are making a metaphor (yes, I DO understand metaphors -- I'm not stupid!)
    2. I don't tend to take specifics and diffuse them to an abstract level unless there's a practial reason for doing so.
    3. I am usually focused on practical ways I can make a visible difference to other people's lives, as opposed to thinkign about ways I could change things way down the road. If people talk about ideas for the future around me, I get impatient if I can't start on something related to making these ideas real right away.
    4. I feel driven to accomplish tangible goals rather than trying to be diplomatic or theoretical, unless there's an urgent need for tact and diplomacy -- and then I try my best but feel impatient with that. This does not mean I'm incapable of thinking theoretically -- it simply means I have a preference for tangible-related activities over those taht aren't. Please understand this is just a preference, not a limitation.
    5. When my brain is on auto-pilot, I'm constantly thinking of ways I can visually improve my surroundings, make others feel good, or impact others positively on a psychological level (leave them better off for having encountered me), or make things happen that relate to my values. I'm dominant introverted Feeling, people -- I have a strong set of internal values just like the NFs do!!! I don't know how this differs specifically from what iNtuitives do, but I notice that those who ACTUALLY prefer iNtuition as opposed to those who only think they do tend to be much more abstract-minded than I am. They don't really focus on the here-and-now, and often miss opportunities to make an impact on others right this moment. (I bet someone who thinks they prefer iNtuition but who probably actually is an SP is going to disagre with me on that and not realize that they've mistyped themselves.)


    Sorry for being a crank, people, but I'm starting to wish I never joined MBTIcentral -- reading all the bias against Ss (SPs in particular) makes me angry.

    Sarah
    ISFP
    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    yes, thank you heart, this is quite true. I've said this before but I'll say it again -- I'm really sorry to hear that so many of you have been emotionally abused by insensitive people who didn't know how to value your preference for iNtuition and all that it adds to your temperament. I can well believe that hurt and I'm not surprised at people who have lasting grudges as a result.

    But I would just like to say also...

    I think unconscious bias is inescapable, seeing as how type is inborn. Whenever we try to imagine what it must be like to be someone else, we're bound to get important details wrong. If I went around confidently creating website articles and writing posts to discussion lists about what I believe it's like to have a preference for iNtuition, chances are most of you would say my beliefs are one-sided, wrong in many ways, and don't come close to doing justice to your intelligence, your talents and your complexity. Is it any surprise then that this is exactly how those of us who prefer Sensing feel when they witness _N_s confidently writing down and sharing their assumptions about what it's like to be us?

    Many people would rather get free information than pay for it, and I have no doubt a lot more people get "information" about type through websites and discussion list posts instead of buying quality literature on the subject and taking the time to read it carefully and thoughtfully. So whatever misinformation here is spread about _S_s is what gets cemented in people's brains as fact. Such a shame, don't you think?

    What astonishes me about this list is this: There are some very articulate SJs and SPs on this list who don't seem to me to be at all lacking in intelligence or the ability to communicate well with _N_s. Moreover, they all seem willing to participate seriously in discussions about type preferences. And yet, MBTI Central still ends up with with hundreds of posts like the ones earlier on this thread, in which a bunch of people who say they prefer iNtuition "dumb down" what it's like to prefer Sensing and talk about their beliefs like it's all provable fact.

    If the reason for this is related to people wanting to carving out a unique identity for themselves, I can understandat least why there's so much of it. But in real life, a number of us who prefer Sensing and who aren't stupid can actually nicely compliment those who prefer iNtuition as long as there is mutual respect and both parties are willing to suspend their judgment and not make snap judgments. Nobody here needs to feel their identity is compromised just because those of us who prefer Sensing insist that we're every bit as intelligent and complex as you are. Nor does anyone here need to pretend (or imagine) they know all about what it's like to prefer Sensing when there are a number of well-spoken SJs and SPs here to actually ask questions of.

    Sarah
    ISFP
    i think these posts of yours should have their own thread in order for them to have a better shot at being seen/read/appreciated.
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  8. #138
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    If they fall asleep in the middle of one of your lectures, it means your delivery of the information was very boring,

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    No, it means that everyone I know who's ever gotten into a discussion on type thinks initially that they have a preference for intuition DESPITE it appearing to me that a lot of them obviously have the SP or SJ temperament.
    (underline my own)

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I've actually thought about creating a website or a blog for ISFPs about our type preferences, but I figure it would be such a hassle to get emails from N-people suggesting to me that can't possibly be an SP because of various reasons that have nothing to do with actual type preferences.
    I'm one of those N-people, I do that ALL the time
    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Thanks, I appreciate that, but I doubt that any of you would really want to give up the elite status that "N" in your type code is believed to come along with.
    translate: "Thanks but you lie, you shifty N-person you"

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Would you really want to read messages questioning the intelligence and creativity and range of talents of your type all the time?
    I love it hun, that's why I hang out here !

    (IRL, I'm much too intimidating)

    Hint: For those of a more literal mindset, add "NOT" to the end of most of what I write and see if it makes more sense.

    PS I like yanking chains.

    PPS Seriously Sarah, idiots are well-represented across the type spectrum. I find it helps to ignore them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #139
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    This is her point:
    *strokes runvardh*
    I feel understood
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #140
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    Speaking of missing the point...

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    everyone I know who is interested in type identifies first with the iNtuitive descriptions. EVERYONE. Pretty remarkable, huh? And only later do some of them come to realize that they might prefer sensing, thanks to reading more accurate descriptions of the 16 types.
    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    - the clue was in "interested in type"

    Tests which are not self-selecting suggest that Ns number no more than 1 in 7 of general population

    We're just more interested in this useless sorta sh*t K?
    ... bluemonday, you do realize that sarah was saying that the Ss she knows who are interested in type all started out identifying as Ns but later come to identify as Ss (and that none of the Ns did the opposite)? What does the minority of Ns (whether there are 1/7 as you said or 1/3-1/4 as ptgatsby said, and which you refer to as proving your point :rolli have to do with that?

    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    i think these posts of yours should have their own thread in order for them to have a better shot at being seen/read/appreciated.
    Seconded.

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