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  1. #111
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Three things:

    1. A bias
    2. People just venting and blaming it on S
    3. People not fully understanding what S is and isn't and what S types are and are not like.

    When people are biased or just venting it's usually obvious so I actually don't mind it as much (Not that I want to promote it!) as when people believe/spread incorrect information.

    I'm really glad that Sarah cleared things up that seemed to be misunderstood.

  2. #112
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    Three things:

    1. A bias
    2. People just venting and blaming it on S
    3. People not fully understanding what S is and isn't and what S types are and are not like.

    When people are biased or just venting it's usually obvious so I actually don't mind it as much (Not that I want to promote it!) as when people believe/spread incorrect information.

    I'm really glad that Sarah cleared things up that seemed to be misunderstood.
    Hers was a very good post. I think most Ns don't really have a clear understanding of what it's like to be S. It's good when we get an explanation like Sarah's, so that we aren't just forced to make up in our heads what it must be like.

    Another factor is that SJs in particular tend to make up a majority in our society, or at least it feels like they do. A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers--they can't always account for their time and efforts with something concrete, etc. So when they find MBTI and discover there's a reason they're actually different, they cut loose with the venting about prior experiences in the SJ world that have caused them pain. It's a major generalization, of course, and not always accurate, since it's venting.

    I definitely understand your frustration, though.

  3. #113
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers
    The SJs usually aren't too fond of males who prefer F and P either.

  4. #114
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My ISFP friend has some great N, she just doesn't prefer to spend the majority of her time there.

    Most of the time when N people are are venting about the S types in their lives that they came to grief with they are talking about people who had very little appreciation, patience or respect for N, not all S types. Everybody is in different learning stages on this board.
    yes, thank you heart, this is quite true. I've said this before but I'll say it again -- I'm really sorry to hear that so many of you have been emotionally abused by insensitive people who didn't know how to value your preference for iNtuition and all that it adds to your temperament. I can well believe that hurt and I'm not surprised at people who have lasting grudges as a result.

    But I would just like to say also...

    I think unconscious bias is inescapable, seeing as how type is inborn. Whenever we try to imagine what it must be like to be someone else, we're bound to get important details wrong. If I went around confidently creating website articles and writing posts to discussion lists about what I believe it's like to have a preference for iNtuition, chances are most of you would say my beliefs are one-sided, wrong in many ways, and don't come close to doing justice to your intelligence, your talents and your complexity. Is it any surprise then that this is exactly how those of us who prefer Sensing feel when they witness _N_s confidently writing down and sharing their assumptions about what it's like to be us?

    Many people would rather get free information than pay for it, and I have no doubt a lot more people get "information" about type through websites and discussion list posts instead of buying quality literature on the subject and taking the time to read it carefully and thoughtfully. So whatever misinformation here is spread about _S_s is what gets cemented in people's brains as fact. Such a shame, don't you think?

    What astonishes me about this list is this: There are some very articulate SJs and SPs on this list who don't seem to me to be at all lacking in intelligence or the ability to communicate well with _N_s. Moreover, they all seem willing to participate seriously in discussions about type preferences. And yet, MBTI Central still ends up with with hundreds of posts like the ones earlier on this thread, in which a bunch of people who say they prefer iNtuition "dumb down" what it's like to prefer Sensing and talk about their beliefs like it's all provable fact.

    If the reason for this is related to people wanting to carving out a unique identity for themselves, I can understandat least why there's so much of it. But in real life, a number of us who prefer Sensing and who aren't stupid can actually nicely compliment those who prefer iNtuition as long as there is mutual respect and both parties are willing to suspend their judgment and not make snap judgments. Nobody here needs to feel their identity is compromised just because those of us who prefer Sensing insist that we're every bit as intelligent and complex as you are. Nor does anyone here need to pretend (or imagine) they know all about what it's like to prefer Sensing when there are a number of well-spoken SJs and SPs here to actually ask questions of.

    Sarah
    ISFP

  5. #115
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Hers was a very good post. I think most Ns don't really have a clear understanding of what it's like to be S. It's good when we get an explanation like Sarah's, so that we aren't just forced to make up in our heads what it must be like.

    Another factor is that SJs in particular tend to make up a majority in our society, or at least it feels like they do. A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers--they can't always account for their time and efforts with something concrete, etc. So when they find MBTI and discover there's a reason they're actually different, they cut loose with the venting about prior experiences in the SJ world that have caused them pain. It's a major generalization, of course, and not always accurate, since it's venting.

    I definitely understand your frustration, though.

    Thanks Tallulah and everyone else who's responded. I do appreciate that nobody took my rant the wrong way. It was long-winded and vehement, but I'm glad my point didn't get lost behind all the emotion.

    We all know that _S_s vary widely in intelligence, variety of interests, and ability to communicate with _N_s about topics we find mutually interesting. I know that as well as you do. So why anyone here should talk about us as though we're all on the "dumb" end of the scale is beyond me. For every person you've met who probably prefers Sensing and who seems lacking in intelligence or thoughtfulness, there are others of us whom you would not be able to immediately identify as having a preference for Sensing. When people rant about "Sensors," my mind understands that they're talking about those on the dull, boring or dumb end of the scale, but my feelings don't agree with my mind -- it still FEELS offensive to read that we are all being lumped into such a negative category of people.

    Sarah
    ISFP

  6. #116
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Sarah, since we're all intelligent and complex, and mutually respectful and all that stuff, I feel like I can safely inform you that writing "iNtuition" is kinda gay.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  7. #117
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    I think most of the angst about N v S is based in everyday frustrations, anyone who genuinely believes a S preference is inferior is deluded. Recon Tallulah said it best;

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    Hers was a very good post. I think most Ns don't really have a clear understanding of what it's like to be S. It's good when we get an explanation like Sarah's, so that we aren't just forced to make up in our heads what it must be like.

    Another factor is that SJs in particular tend to make up a majority in our society, or at least it feels like they do. A lot of Ns, especially if they are raised in a mostly S environment, start to feel like slackers and losers--they can't always account for their time and efforts with something concrete, etc. So when they find MBTI and discover there's a reason they're actually different, they cut loose with the venting about prior experiences in the SJ world that have caused them pain. It's a major generalization, of course, and not always accurate, since it's venting.

    I definitely understand your frustration, though.
    It's venting, misunderstanding and frustration all rolled into one. That said I SPs

    And Jeff you know I think you're awesome but I got to say I don't like it when people use the word 'gay' as an insult.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Everything Sarah said.........ever.
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

  9. #119
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Yay, Sarah!!!

    I love it when you IFPs get angry.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  10. #120
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    How do you go about introducing the S/N dimension to Sensers and are you successful ?
    If they fall asleep/become impatient in the middle of said lecture, they are likely to be S.

    Actual vs. possible seems most useful dichotomy.

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    everyone I know who is interested in type identifies first with the iNtuitive descriptions. EVERYONE.
    - the clue was in "interested in type"

    Tests which are not self-selecting suggest that Ns number no more than 1 in 7 of general population

    We're just more interested in this useless sorta sh*t K?

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I think unconscious bias is inescapable
    it's not unconscious - MBTI relies on clearly expressed conscious functional preferences i.e. bias

    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    I have no doubt a lot more people get "information" about type through websites and discussion list posts instead of buying quality literature on the subject and taking the time to read it carefully and thoughtfully.
    Most (all?)of the literature (thoughtful or otherwise) published on the topic is produced by INs.
    Maybe you should write a book for Ss.
    (Don't expect to get rich).

    I don't accept that most Ns disrespect or devalue Ss. Many I know would prefer to be that way inclined, myself included (I want to be an Artisan - it's funner) but you are what you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Sarah, since we're all intelligent and complex, and mutually respectful and all that stuff, I feel like I can safely inform you that writing "iNtuition" is kinda gay.
    i know I shouldn't, but i did
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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