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  1. #41
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    @valaki

    I came across this 784 description and remembered this thread.

    748, 784
    The Messenger, the reactive 7
    2x Id, 1x Ego
    Stackings: Sx/Sp, Sx/So, Sp/Sx
    Wings: usually 7w8
    Mistypes:
    Traits: passionate, innovative, flamboyant, original, direct, creative, assertive, moody, spontaneous, intense

    The darkest Sevens, often mistyped. Arrogant, individualistic, very concerned with their independence – want to be free in order to fulfill their visions and dreams. They like to be thought of as original, and can be proud of being misunderstood (but since they're core Sevens, they care much less for their image than Fours do). Might be very inconsiderate and quickly bored with people. I think they don't like descriptions which present 7s as very positive, friendly, happy-go-lucky and gregarious.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    Darling, you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. Don't make bullshit assumptions about me.
    You are an in denial ENTJ.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    I came across this 784 description and remembered this thread.

    748, 784
    The Messenger, the reactive 7
    2x Id, 1x Ego
    Stackings: Sx/Sp, Sx/So, Sp/Sx
    Wings: usually 7w8
    Mistypes:
    Traits: passionate, innovative, flamboyant, original, direct, creative, assertive, moody, spontaneous, intense

    The darkest Sevens, often mistyped. Arrogant, individualistic, very concerned with their independence – want to be free in order to fulfill their visions and dreams. They like to be thought of as original, and can be proud of being misunderstood (but since they're core Sevens, they care much less for their image than Fours do). Might be very inconsiderate and quickly bored with people. I think they don't like descriptions which present 7s as very positive, friendly, happy-go-lucky and gregarious.
    Thanks for that desc. You got the 874 one as well? I want to compare them.


    You are an in denial ENTJ.
    Nope, not in denial, see my profile. A few types are listed there, ENTJ being one of them.

    I just need whatever type to make enough sense. Until then my profile will look the way it currently does.

    See, it's harder to correctly read people's motivations than you'd think.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Thanks for that desc. You got the 874 one as well? I want to compare them.




    Nope, not in denial, see my profile. A few types are listed there, ENTJ being one of them.

    I just need whatever type to make enough sense. Until then my profile will look the way it currently does.

    See, it's harder to correctly read people's motivations than you'd think.
    It was only done for 7s. http://personalitycafe.com/type-7-fo...bad-jokes.html

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Well too bad, thx anyway

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    Honestly, no, i definitely have a good amount of self control, despite the fact that at times I may appear not to. Even when im acting on impulse, I still know what I'm doing. I own my own business, and when meeting new clients, its important to come across as contained and professional. So the demands of business definitely helped me develop that self control, but when out with friends or whatever I'm a whole different animal. Say whatever, do whatever. But still, like I said while I appear impulsive and devil may care, I don't say or do anything without my own consent lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozones View Post
    Honestly, no, i definitely have a good amount of self control, despite the fact that at times I may appear not to. Even when im acting on impulse, I still know what I'm doing. I own my own business, and when meeting new clients, its important to come across as contained and professional. So the demands of business definitely helped me develop that self control, but when out with friends or whatever I'm a whole different animal. Say whatever, do whatever. But still, like I said while I appear impulsive and devil may care, I don't say or do anything without my own consent lol
    Yeah that was weird in OP, sounded like he talked about some disconnect between body and will :o

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    ESTPs do you identify with this?

    I feel like a human trapped inside an exosuit that does whatever the hell it wants regardless of how I try to steer it in other directions. It goes and just DOES stuff, really without my permission.

    However I need to program my body with morals and knowledge. Once I engraine those things, it kinda takes it from there.

    Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by IndyAnnaJoan View Post
    @valaki

    I personally found it very helpful. I used to feel out of control, which led to severe depression. I sought counseling, but was greatly disappointed. Instead, I sought out self help. Mostly Buddhism and mbti/enneagram discovery seemed to help, too. I tried journaling, but for the first couple of years I felt even crazier because I realized I couldn't pinpoint the root of my pain. It was like my brain was tricking me, and I was writing thoughts that weren't actually my own. Buddhism helped me on the path to greater awareness of myself and the world around me. Eventually, I felt like I could see more clearly again. Like @Halla74 suggested, it also focused on taking responsibility for ones self.
    @Azure Flame You may need some kind of mechanism to restrain your impulses, like @IndyAnnaJoan mentioned...

    If you are an ISTP, your Ti should be able to restrain your Se impulsiveness though...if it can't, you may try to find some genuine martial arts class that doesn't only focus on the physical but also the spritiual/self-discipline aspect of it...

    That kind of self-discipline work in time (like in terms of months or years) may reinforce/fire off brain connections of certain parts of your brain that deal with controlling impulsiveness...

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    ESTPs do you identify with this?

    I feel like a human trapped inside an exosuit that does whatever the hell it wants regardless of how I try to steer it in other directions. It goes and just DOES stuff, really without my permission.

    However I need to program my body with morals and knowledge. Once I engraine those things, it kinda takes it from there.

    Thoughts?
    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I'm not telling you to stop being a bitch; I'm telling you to grow up - there's a huge difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Azure Flame View Post
    Idunno what it means to "grow up." I need specifics. If anything I've been spending my life learning how to be a kid again.
    Do you consider this a problem? Artisans are the most freedom-oriented house, with ESTPs pioneering in that regard. I'd expect quite a few of them to identify with something like this.

    A hypothetical. What would happen if you intentionally were to have yourself 'bombarded' with the tertiary and inferior? I would expect these to 'fix' that effect.

    But why would you? Maybe you've already gone too deep into those matters so they're shaking your resolve.

    Their MO is to steer clear from anything that tampers with their instincts. Especially early on in their lives. This is typically why they're as successful as they are in their undertakings. This sometimes involves illegal approaches or ones that do harm to others. Worldly success is taken from somewhere. Quite a few of them end up doing time or not even surviving. But hey, risk is a pretty crucial keyword in their lives. And getting around the law significantly accelerates things. It really doesn't seem too bad next to climbing the corporate ladder, which feels like suffocation to them.

    As this immense vitality wanes, so do their abilities for the larger-than-life goals. Where do they even get the idea to 'grow up'? Maybe all the 'debris' they pick up dealing with people and society eventually gets to them.

    Or maybe there is an evolutionary process involved due to which they gravitate to the whole 'growing up' ordeal. But isn't that literally like a lifetime away if that is the case?

    Also may want to keep in mind that any life-form has a shadow of equal size.

    In the end, it's up to you to decide how to go about the matter.
    Last edited by MacabreCharade; 03-16-2014 at 03:35 PM.

  9. #49
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    Am I correct in assuming most of your reply to the quoted posts above pertain to Azure Flame?
    It seems like that is the case, so I'm responding mostly to the more general material in your reply - that which speaks to the nature of ESTPs.
    Some of what you wrote about ESTP commonalities seems reasonable, however ALOT of your reply is (1) somewhat derogatory, (2) not backed by any links to reputable research, and (3) simply not true - thus I'm addressing them.
    We do not know each other, so I'm assuming positive intent (or at worst ignorance) on your part unless given reason to feel otherwise. <--HINT: This is very typical for ESTPs to do, BTW...
    The reason I'm stating this upfront is that I want you to understand the perspective I'm speaking from, and not to assume I'm chewing you or out or having a knee jerk reaction to the parts of your reply that I don't agree with.

    FYI - for parts of your replies that I don't think were directed at me will have strikethrough font.

    Let's begin...

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    Do you consider this a problem? Artisans are the most freedom-oriented house, with ESTPs pioneering most of all in that regard. I'd expect a lot more ESTPs to identify with something like this.
    Yes, Artisans and especially ESTPs are very freedom oriented.

    In the case of ESTPs, it is necessary for us to maintain a fair amount of freedom in our lives in order to capitalize on our natural strengths - that being solving real world problems via working with and through others. Yes, we do more than promote ideas, we actually do some "real work" too. Shocking, I know.

    And, I'd like to clarify that the path to a successful life for most people (not just ESTPs) is best found by identifying one's natural strengths, and then creating a life that allows those strengths to be expressed, and a profession that allows one's natural strengths to be utilized more often than not.
    This does not happen overnight for most people; it simply takes time.
    Sure, some people get lucky and figure out much of what they need to in this regard younger than most, and some people take forever to figure it out, but this is the case for much of the maturation process. Most people are somewhere in the bell curve, but there are always outliers in either direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    A hypothetical. What happens if you intentionally were to have yourself 'bombarded' with the tertiary and inferior? I would expect these to 'fix' that effect.
    This is an interesting hypothetical.
    Can you please provide an example of how an ESTP could have themselves bombarded with their tertiary Fe and inferior Ni so that I may reply accordingly?

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    But why would you? Maybe you've already gone too deep into those matters so that they're shaking your resolve.
    As stated above, this doesn't apply to me so I struck it out, just including it for completeness...

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    The MO of artisans is to steer clear from anything that tampers with their instincts. Especially early on in their lives.
    What do you mean by "the MO of artisans is to steer clear from anything that tampers with their instincts?"
    Can you please clarify that statement? It doesn't make sense to me.

    Two things I've noticed about the Artisans I know IRL: (1) they say it like it is, and (2) they do what works.
    Artisans are practical people despite their ability to live a very Epicurean lifestyle if desired.
    Will we approach the endeavors of our lives from the perspective that we favor most? Yes, and that is the case for nearly all people.
    In the case of ESTPs, our instincts are to influence situations to create favorable outcomes for ourselves, others, and if self-actualized also the greater good.
    ESTPs are not at all avoidant, if anything we are much more prone to being assertive (and confrontational as needed) if we don't like the way something is going, and steer it in a direction we deem acceptable.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    This is typically why they're as successful as they are in their undertakings.
    That's part of the key to the success of ESTPs.
    It is also important to not overlook other major contributing factors, such as our intelligence, charm, wit, incredibly good looks and humility.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    This also often involves illegal approaches or ones that do harm to others.
    I Call BULLSHIT On This.
    Any credible source material to back up? I doubt it.
    You seem to attribute the success of ESTPs with foul play - which is simply ridiculous.
    What do you mean by "illegal approaches?"
    Are you inferring that all ESTPs are drug dealers, pimps, and bank robbers? Because that would be completely ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    Worldly success is typically taken from somewhere.
    I disagree. Worldly success is more likely to manifest in the life of an individual who is focused, adaptive, hardworking and innovative - and even more so if that person is able to create business environments that are a "Win, Win" for themselves and their peers/partners/clients/etc.
    Fortune favors the bold. Opportunity only knocks once. Most ESTPs are very aware of these two fundamental truths, and have a disposition and demeanor that allows them to an agent of change in their environment.
    Machiavellian assholes do not fare as well in the business world as you think.
    Being a controlling and abusive asshole will only get you so far.
    Being innovative, willing to take reasonable risks, and having a knack for building alliances with others will get you a lot farther, a lot quicker.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    A lot of them end up doing time or not even surviving.
    I Call BULLSHIT On This Too.
    Got any credible stats?
    Not surviving? Where the hell did that come from? ESTPs are the ultimate realists.
    Surviving is a life skill learned by most ESTPs very early on.
    We pay attention to our environment beyond what most people consider necessary, and are typically able to interact with it, adapt to it and influence it at lightning quick speed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    But hey, risk is a pretty crucial keyword in their lives. And getting around the law significantly accelerates things.
    Did someone who you think was an ESTP fuck you over at some point in your life and you're all bent out of shape over it?
    ESTPs are not mindless adrenaline junkies. We are actually very calculating when it comes to risk, and able to do so on the fly objectively and with astounding accuracy.
    What is your hang up with ESTPs "getting around the law?"

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    It really doesn't sound too bad next to climbing the corporate ladder, which typically feels like suffocation to them.
    What doesn't sound too bad, being a professional criminal as opposed to climbing the corporate ladder?
    If so, that was a stupid thing to say IMHO.
    My career spans over twenty years at this point.
    I've worked in corporate America, worked for the government, and also done a few entrepenuerial things here and there - all of which has been enjoyable overall, and hardly ever "suffocating."
    ESTPs don't like to be bored, because they have a natural joy for life, and are thus naturally inclined to make all they do as fun as possible, for themselves and for others involved also.
    So, your statement above doesn't add up to a whole lot in all honesty.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    As this immense vitality wanes, so do their abilities for the larger-than-life goals.
    Again, you are projecting a baseless negative stereotype on everyone who is an ESTP, which is (1) simply poor form to do for anything, so stop it - you're making yourself look bad, and (2) Last time I checked ESTPs have significant endurance of vitality. Many ESTPs have very high expectations of themselves, and thus target larger-than-life goals. Why wouldn't a person who knows their capabilities, is self-confident, and has intellect and experience commensurate with pulling off a targeted objective do exactly that? So, as far as career vitality I'd wager most ESTPs are pretty damn resilient and adaptable, regardless of if they are just beginning their career or more experienced.

    So far as physical vitality, I'm 40 years old and I'm in better shape than most people you will ever meet.
    Yes, many ESTPs are athletic, and if not then active as hell - we need to burn off our surplus energy each day, and thus live lives that allow that to happen. It's good for us, we know it, so we do it. Not very hard to figure out really.

    Also, with regard to academic or professional pursuits, I get an immense amount of difficult work done in a short amount of time, because (like most other ESTPs) I'm able to make my prior experiences relevant in the context of my present endeavors, and I know what to do myself, and who should be doing other parts of a given project because their expertise is beyond mine in a particular category and it would stupid for me to waste my time to not delegate such work. ESTPs are experts at figuring out who knows how to do what, and dividing up large, complex tasks and then ultimately find the person best fit to do each component of the work according to their skills & natural abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    Where do they even get the idea to 'grow up'? Maybe all the 'debris' they pick up dealing with people and society eventually gets to them.
    Perhaps the majority of ESTPs are functional people with a healthy outlook on life?
    What a fucking shocker!
    "Growing up" doesn't mean becoming a lifeless slave.
    If I had to define "Growing up" I'd simply break it down to: (a) developing yourself into a mature and well mannered person, (b) becoming and remaining economically self-sufficient, and (c) living your life for something that is beyond you - literally serving the greater good as it makes sense to you.
    I've done all three, and had a blast doing it, and will continue to do so.
    In fact, I honestly can't think of a single ESTP that I know IRL who isn't happy with their life overall.
    So again, I don't know where you are getting your ideas about ESTPs from, but they are immensely inaccurate and filled with negative stereotypes.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    Or maybe there is an evolutionary process involved due to which they gravitate to the whole 'growing up' ordeal.
    All people, regardless of their MBTI type, take time to mature and establish their lives. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    But isn't that literally like a lifetime away if that is the case?
    Was this directed at Azure Flame? If so it might make sense to me.
    If not, the above is unclear and poorly written so I'm not going to waste my time even trying to figure out what you meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacabreCharade View Post
    In the end, it's up to you to decide how to go about the matter.
    This is true; life is about two things: (1) Choices, and (2) Accountability.
    Each person must choose how they wish to live, and be accountable for their actions.



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  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    Am I correct in assuming most of your reply to the quoted posts above pertain to Azure Flame?
    All of it, really. Just included your post so the relevant post-lining would be complete.

    Some of what you wrote about ESTP commonalities seems reasonable, however ALOT of your reply is (1) somewhat derogatory, (2) not backed by any links to reputable research, and (3) simply not true - thus I'm addressing them.
    Realised even while typing, yes. Have a rather unusual turn of mind. Instead of deleting it, just fixed plenty of the adverbs, but the general tone remains. Should've specified that it was about the more conspicuous, such as the E8, 3 and Se-subtype, particularly if all combined. Yes, a lot of it was taboo and controversial and I doubt any 'reputable research' has been performed on the matter.

    This is an interesting hypothetical.
    Can you please provide an example of how an ESTP could have themselves bombarded with their tertiary Fe and inferior Ni so that I may reply accordingly?
    I suppose it would be less of a concern for the seasoned ones, as they've become considerably more well-rounded over time due to experiental exposition. The 'gut-driven' experience he described seemed natural considering his listed type preferences. Wouldn't have been as extreme about it had I noticed the subtype as well.

    The hypothetical wasn't anything special, really. It would have the same effect on everyone. So as it seemed like his 'condition' may have been caused by especially being 'in his element', him actually feeling like his primary is assuming a life of its own, as the primary sometimes does for many people, creating an uncomfortable setting would likely subdue this effect because of how unnatural it would feel. Seems like self-torture, yes? That was kind of the intent. From the OP, it seemed like he was passing off the matter as a slight concern. Considering his age, that seems like one of the healthiest states he can be in. If he manages to carry this effect into old age, it would definitely be something to boast about and envied by many. Can't get any more youthful than that.

    Sorry, I may get a little personal with this one. Please don't respond if it's bothersome. How long have you known your wife? Around a dozen years? It's probably more of a mixed bag and less of a concern nowadays, both dipping into each other's interests more and more, but was it a little more difficult to spend time together early on? After the initial wave, I mean, when each side tries to re-assume their 'post of individuality'. Was it a little more difficult? You have the personal experience on this one. May not remember, however.

    I initially basically thought about dualistic activities, but not necessarily involved with a 'special someone' to walk one through the uncomfortable and alienating activities. Instead, assuming those on their own. So if he were to expose himself intentionally to those matters, concerning himself with others emotionally as well as varying complex and doubt-inducing viewpoints, they can be detrimental to his reactions and logical thinking. Now, in modern life, their lives don't involve literal survival as much as probably in the past. But given such a scenario, it can cost them their lives. While the development of the tertiary and inferior may be important in terms of general maturation, in earlier life they're seen more as not only excessive, but overwhelming baggage than anything. For example, deciding not to stand with and protect a group of people clearly not as able as them in a moment of distress and panic. It may be immature and might even begin to eat them inside out as they grow older, but at least they managed to survive.

    I Call BULLSHIT On This.
    Any credible source material to back up? I doubt it.
    You seem to attribute the success of ESTPs with foul play - which is simply ridiculous.
    What do you mean by "illegal approaches?"
    Are you inferring that all ESTPs are drug dealers, pimps, and bank robbers? Because that would be completely ignorant.
    Thank you. Probably should've gone predominantly with themes of risk, chance, luck and the like. They seem to get stronger strokes of luck than most other people when it comes to 'gambling'. It only seems like luck, though. They're just that apt at sizing people up.

    I suppose it would be less prevalent in the US. But then, that makes up a relatively small portion of the world. Sorry for not taking that into account. It is true that my sample size is quite limited. You may still find it 'valid' if I were to expand on the background a little. We could go on with that via private messaging. I realise such an expectation would've called for a huge mental stretch.

    Indeed it would be. Seems like a premise for some dystopian fiction.

    I disagree. Worldly success is more likely to manifest in the life of an individual who is focused, adaptive, hardworking and innovative - and even more so if that person is able to create business environments that are a "Win, Win" for themselves and their peers/partners/clients/etc.
    There's a loss for every win. Existence requires sustenance. If the 'wins' are consistent for the individual and his group, even if they don't directly 'beat' other people, these 'winnings' still come from somewhere. But all of this gets muddled somewhere else. But that gets kind of deep and off-topic.

    Machiavellian assholes do not fare as well in the business world as you think.
    Being a controlling and abusive asshole will only get you so far.
    They do, just that their past catches up with them. So this one's quite dandy.

    I Call BULLSHIT On This Too.
    Got any credible stats?
    Not surviving? Where the hell did that come from? ESTPs are the ultimate realists.
    Surviving is a life skill learned by most ESTPs very early on.
    We pay attention to our environment beyond what most people consider necessary, and are typically able to interact with it, adapt to it and influence it at lightning quick speed.
    Don't have any stats.

    Indeed they are the ultimate realists.

    I have kind of been wondering whether the Se/Ni dominants are least likely to make it to 30. That would explain some 'stats'.

    Se users for, I'd say living life to the fullest, but compared to most, I'd say it's overflowing in many cases. Extreme sports would be a good example. There's no doubt that they're usually very good at what they do, but when accidents happen, again, 'life-force' is very much an emphasised keyword. They may have to pay very dearly. If gone by environment, interactions and adaptation, they may see the need to go along with some unhealthy norms, depending on the crowd of course. The '27 Club' may satisfy your 'stat' interest on this one.

    And Ni users would be too sensitive. independently, that function has to be one of the least useful. So they may give the impression of being absent from their bodies. In their case, it's usually varying causes. Whether they be illnesses, which might hit them harder than others, or other matters of reality that constantly require adaptation and compromise from them. Physical deformities could also be more prevalent with them.

    I agree. I'm thoroughly impressed by what you guys are able to do. But when you take an activity that is impulse-based and regularise it for ambitious means, not only are the chances gradually going to be playing against you, it will blunt the alertedness and this is something that obviously cannot happen if someone involves themselves in risk. These are the kinds of accidents that impact everyone involved, but only once they've already happened.

    Did someone who you think was an ESTP fuck you over at some point in your life and you're all bent out of shape over it?
    ESTPs are not mindless adrenaline junkies. We are actually very calculating when it comes to risk, and able to do so on the fly objectively and with astounding accuracy.
    What is your hang up with ESTPs "getting around the law?"
    Haven't personally managed to get to know too many of them to have a decent sample size. Most of them aren't, but the more conspicuous ones can be. I was focusing more on them for emphasis.

    Okay, not necessarily getting around the law, but trying to shoot for pathways that few ordinary people either consider or dare to take. They sometimes get impatient with this and go for what in their opinion is a more 'direct' route. It doesn't have to be anything grand. It can be someone in middle school that the whole school seems to know who's always looking for ways to make a profit on commonplace objects. As far as the school is concerned, 'business' of such sort is not allowed and they're unaware of it happening.

    What doesn't sound too bad, being a professional criminal as opposed to climbing the corporate ladder?
    If so, that was a stupid thing to say IMHO.
    My career spans over twenty years at this point.
    I've worked in corporate America, worked for the government, and also done a few entrepenuerial things here and there - all of which has been enjoyable overall, and hardly ever "suffocating."
    ESTPs don't like to be bored, because they have a natural joy for life, and are thus naturally inclined to make all they do as fun as possible, for themselves and for others involved also.
    So, your statement above doesn't add up to a whole lot in all honesty.
    At that part, I was mostly building something as food for thought. Even though the US is the frontier of capitalism and welcomes entrepreneurship, not all of them are able to manage. Especially when younger. This can be very frustrating and a few select cases resort to 'alternatives' that aren't as society-friendly as they could be.

    Glad your path turned out that way, but not everyone can be as fortunate. In some instances there's not much of a childhood to speak of and charm may also not be as impeccable to soften their experience.

    I should really pay more attention to my adverbs before posting for the first time, instead of fixing afterwards.

    Again, you are projecting a baseless negative stereotype on everyone who is an ESTP, which is (1) simply poor form to do for anything, so stop it - you're making yourself look bad, and (2) Last time I checked ESTPs have significant endurance of vitality. Many ESTPs have very high expectations of themselves, and thus target larger-than-life goals. Why wouldn't a person who knows their capabilities, is self-confident, and has intellect and experience commensurate with pulling off a targeted objective do exactly that? So, as far as career vitality I'd wager most ESTPs are pretty damn resilient and adaptable, regardless of if they are just beginning their career or more experienced.
    Whereas ESTPs would be more resistant to ageing than most and consistently able to tackle matters over and over, time is a very weighty dimension. Everything gets worn out over time. Some of the reasons may vary amongst all the kinds of people that exist, but the general theme at least to me seems more or less consistent when considering entities with a life-force.

    So far as physical vitality, I'm 40 years old and I'm in better shape than most people you will ever meet.
    Yes, many ESTPs are athletic, and if not then active as hell - we need to burn off our surplus energy each day, and thus live lives that allow that to happen. It's good for us, we know it, so we do it. Not very hard to figure out really.
    Artisans really are shining lights in comparison to others. I do not doubt any of that one bit. And while preferations aren't involved when it comes to that with any of the types, again, the Se/Ni types are most subject to concerns in this area. While the Se types are blazing away, everyone else is more of a small, conservative one. The Ni types have a hard time keeping the light on. Again, keep in mind, all this gets considerably more muddled over time as people get more well-rounded.

    Also, with regard to academic or professional pursuits, I get an immense amount of difficult work done in a short amount of time, because (like most other ESTPs) I'm able to make my prior experiences relevant in the context of my present endeavors, and I know what to do myself, and who should be doing other parts of a given project because their expertise is beyond mine in a particular category and it would stupid for me to waste my time to not delegate such work. ESTPs are experts at figuring out who knows how to do what, and dividing up large, complex tasks and then ultimately find the person best fit to do each component of the work according to their skills & natural abilities.
    I haven't literally experienced this yet, but I can definitely see that. How do you fare on JCF tests? How are your 'administrative' functions?

    Perhaps the majority of ESTPs are functional people with a healthy outlook on life?
    What a fucking shocker!
    "Growing up" doesn't mean becoming a lifeless slave.
    If I had to define "Growing up" I'd simply break it down to: (a) developing yourself into a mature and well mannered person, (b) becoming and remaining economically self-sufficient, and (c) living your life for something that is beyond you - literally serving the greater good as it makes sense to you.
    I've done all three, and had a blast doing it, and will continue to do so.
    In fact, I honestly can't think of a single ESTP that I know IRL who isn't happy with their life overall.
    So again, I don't know where you are getting your ideas about ESTPs from, but they are immensely inaccurate and filled with negative stereotypes.
    Again, this was considered as part of the narrative. I should really steer clear from doing that. Sorry.

    That's kind of relative, I suppose. Some consider it as generally becoming well-rounded, for others it means ability to ease into society. Functionality or outlook don't necessarily have to be involved.

    Se types often extend their childhoods. More specifically, the child-like vitality, which they frequently carry with them to the end of their lives. The young ones may be especially reluctant to stray from it, as it's one of the only things they can truly always rely on. They probably get some of their most potent business ideas around then. But as you said, time-based experience and administrative ability goes a long way.

    All people, regardless of their MBTI type, take time to mature and establish their lives. Period.
    I've kind of wondered if there's such a thing as maturing too fast. Probably the reason I took such a slant with the post. Basically talking oneself out of ventures that could otherwise prove very successful, if merely attempted. All the other peers are on 'full-speed-ahead' mode, but they're letting themselves stay behind. Again, I had the dual in mind. But that's probably a silly concern now that I think about it. His mind may naturally fend such detrimental turns for this very reason. At least at this time. Or does it? He does seem to spend a lot of time on the Internet, on boards like this, probably because of his subtype. These places are kind of a haven for the more abstract types, even his dual.

    I definitely stumbled into a ditch with the whole 'law' ordeal by the level of prominency I seemingly gave it. Really sorry about that, yet again.

    Was this directed at Azure Flame? If so it might make sense to me.
    If not, the above is unclear and poorly written so I'm not going to waste my time even trying to figure out what you meant.
    Again, part of what I was going for at that segment.

    This is true; life is about two things: (1) Choices, and (2) Accountability.
    Each person must choose how they wish to live, and be accountable for their actions.
    This can be another curious subject. If fate were to be taken to exist, out of all types, ESTPs would be the definitive in their potential to side-step it.
    Last edited by MacabreCharade; 03-16-2014 at 11:24 AM.

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