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  1. #11
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    No it's not.
    Yeah it is. The Sx/sp people tend to get really attracted to someone and then become obsessed with them. They then think that they are just the best thing in the world and think that they would never want anyone else. After that they tend to pull back and tend to re-evaluate the situation. The sp/sx is just the opposite. The sp/sx tends to keep people at an arm's length and then slowly let's the other person get close to them.

  2. #12
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger055 View Post
    Beginning stages: I'm so lonely what is the point of living without a girlfriend. Proceed to go after girls like a rabid dog.
    First month: She is the greatest girlfriend ever I want her to move in with me now!
    Second month: Oh god she is too close get her away from me.
    Third month: Oh god this is so unbelievably boring I want to get rid of her like an alien parasite attached to my brain stem. Proceed to break up.
    How do you think the girl's thought process about you evolves during the same time period?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How do you think the girl's thought process about you evolves during the same time period?
    She's probably thinking this is a nice start to the relationship. Year one of five.

  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Yeah it is. The Sx/sp people tend to get really attracted to someone and then become obsessed with them. They then think that they are just the best thing in the world and think that they would never want anyone else. After that they tend to pull back and tend to re-evaluate the situation. The sp/sx is just the opposite. The sp/sx tends to keep people at an arm's length and then slowly let's the other person get close to them.
    Well, I don't believe I've ever done that and I'm Sx/Sp. That's only one person though.

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  5. #15
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    This is why committed relationships are pointless in general. I've heard it said many times and you can divide it however you want, but there are always several stages:

    1. Meet
    2. Fun and exciting time where attraction builds
    3. Relationship is initiated and there is a honeymoon period of fun
    4. One party gets possessive and needy, the other gets bored
    5. Break up and never be cool with each other again OR the bored person makes a rational and shrewd decision to keep the relationship anyway because they are getting older and don't want to be alone or whatever. So marriage happens.

    I never could really cope with any part of this idea. I was always overwhelmed by the notion that I was supposed to meet a complete stranger and then commit my life to this random person. I can't see it from the other person's perspective either; why would anyone want to be stuck with me? I would hardly say I am the best guy out there. Bang me, be my friend, sure, but commit to me for life? Weird.

    There's always someone better out there. That's the problem. And that's the whole reason I've avoided giving love to a lot of girls who I didn't quite think were up to a certain level of standards. I felt pressured to commit to them if I did, to define myself by them, and that wasn't going to happen--especially because I wanted to hold out for something better. If that thought weren't in my mind, sure, I would have hooked up with plenty of girls who really could have used it. It's a shame things have to be like this.

    And I think the root of it all is fear. We are afraid of being alone, so we make up these silly promises, say these flimsy words and trick ourselves into thinking we got a guarantee on a person and exclusive rights to their privates.
    I don't disagree with that pattern, but I think I see it in a little different of a framework. I am no advocate of everyone being in relationships, much less long-term committed ones, but these are my thoughts on the how and why of them, when and if they do occur. I see them, at their best, as mutual outpourings of altruistic love and a mutual exercise of free will, a sacrifice and a risk undertaken in hope of mutual gain.

    Much like the above pattern demonstrates, each person in a relationship has different needs, tendencies, and internal clocks they're running on, so at times the two come together in the right way, and at other times the two draw apart and create tension. Both people's individual lives undulate to some degree on their own patterns, though the longer they're together the more their patterns impact one another. This means that sometimes one partner seeks the other more, and other times there is mutual drawing together or pushing away. But part of the draw of the other is that they are foreign and separate in many ways. It makes them interesting and it brings a whole new set of strengths into your life.

    A long-term committed relationship is making the choice that the good times and mutual support are worth the tension and stress of the harder times. And of course that is not for everyone, and it takes a particularly mutually-beneficial relationship for the symbiosis to become worth more than the individual freedom. The bright side is that even if you draw apart at some point, inevitably you fluctuate back together again, as your lives are intertwined. So of course there may be some moments during the relationship at which it is more stressful than beneficial, but the long-term gain is worth the short-term sacrifice. And over time you begin to learn one another's patterns, too, so it becomes increasingly easier to predict and relate and influence one another. You increasingly act as a symbiotic whole, maximizing mutual benefit and minimizing individual loss.

    But eclipsing that - in terms of there being a "better person" out there - I used to feel that strongly, and it ate away at me. The truth in my case was that it was an escape for when I didn't want to look at myself and my selfishness critically. Eventually I got to the point in my relationship where I realized how much I was obsessed about my own happiness, and a relationship can't work like that. There was this article that circulated Facebook not long ago entitled Marriage Isn't for You that addressed it in the way that I tend to see it now. Much of the beauty and strength of a long-term committed relationship is that you willingly close your eyes to other options because you care about the other so much. Other options just cease to matter when you prioritize making your partner happy and fulfilled. I think it is akin to the shift parents experience when they have their children, in that suddenly perspective shifts away from "I". Once the frame of reference changes, the reward system changes too. Getting everything you want is no longer the ultimate pleasure; watching your partner flourish is.

    But, unlike with parenting, this perspective shift has to be mutual to last, as the relationship is a willing choice. You are absolutely right about the fear of being alone; the truth is that either person could end it with nothing more than a whisper. In terms of marriage or equivalent lifelong commitment, you willingly sacrifice your future freedom and take the risk that you may be investing potential in something out of your hands. It's a biting truth, that in a way we are no less alone when married than we are when we are single. We are just more vulnerable. That marriage is some sort of failsafe protection from loneliness is an illusion, though certainly many fall prey to it. Worse is the illusion that having someone's child will "lock" a marriage. Commitment is a leap of faith, essentially... ultimately all of our choices are. You bind yourself to the other in the hope that they too will bind themself to you, and together you can begin to fulfill each others' longings and provide each other with support and warmth through the good and the bad of life. It's idealistic, to be sure, but you can't reap the ultimate gain unless you are willing to put yourself and your future on the line. The key is that the more it is done out of altruistic love, the less of a risk it is.

  6. #16
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Well, I don't believe I've ever done that and I'm Sx/Sp. That's only one person though.
    I didn't believe this either until @chana brought it up in a thread and provided some type of quote by some enneagram expert. Chana what was that quote that you brought up that one time about this?

    Anyway, after she brought this up, I tended to observe the sx/sp people that I know IRL and on these forums, and the pattern tended to be real.

  7. #17
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I don't disagree with that pattern, but I think I see it in a little different of a framework. I am no advocate of everyone being in relationships, much less long-term committed ones, but these are my thoughts on the how and why of them, when and if they do occur. I see them, at their best, as mutual outpourings of altruistic love and a mutual exercise of free will, a sacrifice and a risk undertaken in hope of mutual gain.

    Much like the above pattern demonstrates, each person in a relationship has different needs, tendencies, and internal clocks they're running on, so at times the two come together in the right way, and at other times the two draw apart and create tension. Both people's individual lives undulate to some degree on their own patterns, though the longer they're together the more their patterns impact one another. This means that sometimes one partner seeks the other more, and other times there is mutual drawing together or pushing away. But part of the draw of the other is that they are foreign and separate in many ways. It makes them interesting and it brings a whole new set of strengths into your life.

    A long-term committed relationship is making the choice that the good times and mutual support are worth the tension and stress of the harder times. And of course that is not for everyone, and it takes a particularly mutually-beneficial relationship for the symbiosis to become worth more than the individual freedom. The bright side is that even if you draw apart at some point, inevitably you fluctuate back together again, as your lives are intertwined. So of course there may be some moments during the relationship at which it is more stressful than beneficial, but the long-term gain is worth the short-term sacrifice. And over time you begin to learn one another's patterns, too, so it becomes increasingly easier to predict and relate and influence one another. You increasingly act as a symbiotic whole, maximizing mutual benefit and minimizing individual loss.

    But eclipsing that - in terms of there being a "better person" out there - I used to feel that strongly, and it ate away at me. The truth in my case was that it was an escape for when I didn't want to look at myself and my selfishness critically. Eventually I got to the point in my relationship where I realized how much I was obsessed about my own happiness, and a relationship can't work like that. There was this article that circulated Facebook not long ago entitled Marriage Isn't for You that addressed it in the way that I tend to see it now. Much of the beauty and strength of a long-term committed relationship is that you willingly close your eyes to other options because you care about the other so much. Other options just cease to matter when you prioritize making your partner happy and fulfilled. I think it is akin to the shift parents experience when they have their children, in that suddenly perspective shifts away from "I". Once the frame of reference changes, the reward system changes too. Getting everything you want is no longer the ultimate pleasure; watching your partner flourish is.

    But, unlike with parenting, this perspective shift has to be mutual to last, as the relationship is a willing choice. You are absolutely right about the fear of being alone; the truth is that either person could end it with nothing more than a whisper. In terms of marriage or equivalent lifelong commitment, you willingly sacrifice your future freedom and take the risk that you may be investing potential in something out of your hands. It's a biting truth, that in a way we are no less alone when married than we are when we are single. We are just more vulnerable. That marriage is some sort of failsafe protection from loneliness is an illusion, though certainly many fall prey to it. Worse is the illusion that having someone's child will "lock" a marriage. Commitment is a leap of faith, essentially... ultimately all of our choices are. You bind yourself to the other in the hope that they too will bind themself to you, and together you can begin to fulfill each others' longings and provide each other with support and warmth through the good and the bad of life. It's idealistic, to be sure, but you can't reap the ultimate gain unless you are willing to put yourself and your future on the line. The key is that the more it is done out of altruistic love, the less of a risk it is.
    Yes, that seems to be how we should think of marriage. But it is so easy to say things. Some systems just don't work that well. I'd always make that mistake in teaching. Over the summer I would forget what it was like in the classroom and I would come up with many lists and ways things should be, and all the things I should do. And I was completely right. But when I'd get back in the classroom, I only had so much time and energy, only so much willpower. Inevitably things get messy. And it's the same way with marriage. Sure, say "other options should cease to matter" but you might as well tell yourself you're going to stop looking at the color red or something. Certain things aren't in our biology, no matter what we tell ourselves. I'm not a big believer in free will. That's our main difference.

  8. #18
    libtard SJW chickpea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    I didn't believe this either until @chana brought it up in a thread and provided some type of quote by some enneagram expert. Chana what was that quote that you brought up that one time about this?

    Anyway, after she brought this up, I tended to observe the sx/sp people that I know IRL and on these forums, and the pattern tended to be real.
    I'll try and find it later, but I don't think it's the same as described in the OP. It's not feeling bored or smothered as much as fearing getting close too fast and preventing yourself from getting hurt.

  9. #19
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    I'll try and find it later, but I don't think it's the same as described in the OP. It's not feeling bored or smothered as much as fearing getting close too fast and preventing yourself from getting hurt.
    Yeah that's what I was referencing.

  10. #20
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    Relationship styles vary most importantly in areas that have been defined and quantified already. This would be things like attachment style, love languages, that sort of thing. But at least as important is personal development and maturity. @zago points out that it's "so easy to say things," but in reality the plans fall apart in execution. Eventually, with work and patience and growth, we reach the level of understanding of relationship dynamics that you see in @skylights' post, and then you go on to find someone who you can discuss these matters openly with, and then the plans don't fall apart in execution. If the relationship isn't going to work, both of you see it coming, talk about it like adults, deal with it, and move on. This is why the other night on Vent I was talking about how I wouldn't advise anyone get married in their early 20s. I don't think people are equipped to make life-long commitments yet.
    @badger055, you sound very frustrated, and whether it was her intention or not, @Coriolis is giving you brilliant advice on the lack of communication within your relationships that you've demonstrated.

    It's OK to get into a relationship and say, "I feel excited and happy about being near you." That's a natural feeling in the beginning of a relationship, and yes, relationships do go in cycles. There's that New Relationship Energy, then there's being in love where most people don't think about other partners, then there's a slower-burning deep commitment phase which is more relaxed and reflective, and has a more realistic perspective on who you've committed to. Many, many relationships break down at that phase, because the feeling changes so much, and people aren't prepared for it... they think they've fallen out of love, or have changed in some way.

    So anyway, I'm wandering off a bit I think. My point is that the opening section of a relationship is very exciting and fun, but it's important to apply the brakes a bit and take in the scenery if you want it to last.

    I get the feeling that people are afraid to talk about this stuff with people they're involved with, like it will "spoil the romance" or frighten someone away. I guess there's an amount of vulnerability to talking plainly about your feelings, but as I see it, if you want a relationship that lasts and lasts, you want to be able to have that vulnerability together. It feels awesome to show that and have someone appreciate it.

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