[ISTP] Can you spot the fake istp?

[Eye of the Potato]

I encountered the 3rd video before and thought the individual was an ESFP not an Fe user. I guess I should go back and take another look.

I have a questions however:

a) Do you intend to go on their channels and call them out as mistypes?
b) Do you have any videos of people (who you think) are mistyped as INFPs? I ask because I admittedly care little about ENFPs and their problems whilst I like to occasionally lose myself in the passion of a witch hunt when it comes to mistyped INFPs.
c) Any more videos of people providing a "response video" to being mistyped? Preferably ones who are clearly mistypes yet refuse to acknowledge it.

Thanks.

a) I did with the "istp" and he wrote a stupid reply so I didn't bother arguing any further with him. I did leave a few comments on enfp videos, last week when I was in a bad mood, but I deleted them. I couldn't be arsed now though.

b)Would I be right in guessing you're an infp? And that's why it sticks in your craw to see people pretending to be your type, and giving your type a bad name? Cos that's why it bothered me about the "enfp's" I'll have a look for infp video's and get back to you. I only know 2 infp's in real life, and we don't see each other that often, so I'm not as well versed in how they are. I've had a lot more experience with enfj's in real life and online.

c) I'll have a look.

 

[Standuble]

a) I did with the "istp" and he wrote a stupid reply so I didn't bother arguing any further with him. I did leave a few comments on enfp videos, last week when I was in a bad mood, but I deleted them. I couldn't be arsed now though.

b)Would I be right in guessing you're an infp? And that's why it sticks in your craw to see people pretending to be your type, and giving your type a bad name? Cos that's why it bothered me about the "enfp's" I'll have a look for infp video's and get back to you. I only know 2 infp's in real life, and we don't see each other that often, so I'm not as well versed in how they are. I've had a lot more experience with enfj's in real life and online.

c) I'll have a look.

a) Fair enough.

b) I am an INFP but it doesn't "stick in my craw" so much; I only concern myself with it when a) I'm feeling like a special snowflake and wonder whether they're going to be camping on my lawn (this is as far as I get in regards to being irked on the matter) or b) I'm feeling elitist and/or a douche and I see the mistypes like they're fish in a barrel. If you can't find any then it's not a problem. I know of a couple who have been called out in the past but they haven't made any videos recently.

c) Thanks dude!

 

[Eye of the Potato]

a) Fair enough.

b) I am an INFP but it doesn't "stick in my craw" so much; I only concern myself with it when a) I'm feeling like a special snowflake and wonder whether they're going to be camping on my lawn (this is as far as I get in regards to being irked on the matter) or b) I'm feeling elitist and/or a douche and I see the mistypes like they're fish in a barrel. If you can't find any then it's not a problem. I know of a couple who have been called out in the past but they haven't made any videos recently.

c) Thanks dude!

Ok well first, I have to ask how you came to type yourself as an infp.? Do you go on the function order or the type description?

The reason I ask is that Myers Briggs switched the function order and in my opinion made an absolute mess of it, so one person's idea of Ni, Fe, can mean infj for some, and infp for others. Depending on how well they understand the functions. If they relate to Ni or Fi. Or if they don't understand the functions they'll just go off the type description.

In Socionics the function order is Fi, Ne, Ti, Se for INFj. So some people look at the type descriptions for infj in mbti and see that they are introverted planners who are also dreamers and look at the Socionics description and see that INFj's are also introverted planners and dreamers. But when they look at the cognitive functions for an infj they see that in mbti the infj is labelled with using Ni, Fe, Ti, Se, and Fi, Ne, Ti, Se in Socionics. Which makes them conclude that mbti infj = Socionics INFp.

Some people think it's a simple case of switching the j and p, but since the infj person (archetype) being described is the same in both systems, this is just wrong to do. I don't think Myers Brigs really understood the functions. They just had a very good understanding of people, and noticed the same characters repeating throughout history and literature. And this is where they approached the subject from.

Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well. Bear with me.

Are you this?



infj


creative, smart, focus on fantasy more than reality, fears doing the wrong thing, observer, avoidant, fears drawing attention to self, anxious, cautious, somewhat easily frightened, easily offended, private, easily hurt, socially uncomfortable, emotionally moody, does not like to be looked at, fearful, perfectionist, can sabotage self, can be wounded at the core, values solitude, guarded, does not like crowds, organized,more likely to support marijuana legalization, focuses on peoples hidden motives, prone to crying, not competitive, prone to feelings of loneliness, not spontaneous, prone to sadness, longs for a stabilizing relationship, fears rejection in relationships, frequently worried, can feel victimized, prone to intimidation, lower energy, strict with self


Or are you this?


infp

creative, smart, idealist, attracted to sad things, disorganized, avoidant, can be overwhelmed by unpleasant feelings, prone to quitting, prone to feelings of loneliness, ambivalent of the rules, solitary, daydreams about people to maintain a sense of closeness, focus on fantasies, acts without planning, low self confidence, emotionally moody, can feel defective, prone to lateness, likes esoteric things, wounded at the core, feels shame, frequently losing things, prone to sadness, prone to dreaming about a rescuer, disorderly, observer, easily distracted, does not like crowds, can act without thinking, private, can feel uncomfortable around others, familiar with the darkside, more likely to support marijuana legalization, can sabotage self, likes the rain, sometimes can't control fearful thoughts, prone to crying, prone to regret, attracted to the counter culture, can be submissive, prone to feeling discouraged, frequently second guesses self, not punctual, not always prepared, can feel victimized, prone to confusion, prone to irresponsibility, can be pessimistic


I bolded the main differences between the types, from this list of adjectives.

 

[skylights]

tho...i think they're both completely over doing it....they actually all seem to be overdoing it and i find it a bit offensive. like someone reading about enfps and then attempting to behave like one....rather than just being one.

i just came across this infps video and relate to her vibe more than any of the above enfp videos posted.

eta: not necessarily everything she's saying but her manner. she's just real. there's nothing that feels put on about her. i have known many nfps and have never known any that behave all overdone cutesy like the chics in the videos.

YES. I agree. The manner. Not trying to put something on.

first one is like estj
2nd looks esfj
3rd could be enfp or esfp
4th was way too annoying to watch but doubt enfp
5th one super young and full of herself and it annoys me but probably enfp but could be enfj

Yes exactly! These are exactly how I felt too.

That fourth girl, she thinks she's ENFP but doesn't like making facial expressions ? What?!

Lol, that one threw me for a loop too.

Well you obviously didn't listen to the content of what the enfp said. She has obviously been accused of being lazy all her life and came to the realisation, that she is not lazy, she just enjoys her leisure time. And needs lots of leisure time to allow her imagination to run free. Only an enfp would look at it in such a way and turn the concept of laziness on it's head. She mentioned that Dr. Seuss was an enfp and that he's considered one of the most profound thinkers of all time. I can't see an esfj making a statement like that. I actually love the way she put it and felt empowered by it. Cos she is dead right. Our function in life is to come up with novel ways of doing things and to understand the big picture. We need time away from constraining responsibilities to do that. We need room to breath.

Like I've already said, no, I did not listen to the whole video, and I did not make the argument that she wasn't ENFP. I just said that she makes me think Fe.

The reason I know the other 4 are enfj is because of how they extrovert their feeling. Their presentations have a dramatic flair that enfj's are known for. The third one even said she wants to be an actress. Look at all the posters on her wall. All the enfj's I know have stuff on their walls too. (I'm not saying other types don't have stuff on their walls, that's just one little clue amoung many others that would suggest enfj) They are a lot more expressive than the enfp. Fi is a lot more self contained. Jung described it as rivers run deep. It's hard to explain in words, so that's why I put the video's up to show people the difference and what Fe vs Fi actually looks like.

Watch the video's again and now that I've pointed the differences out, you should be able to see them. Just like the moonwalking bear was noticeable only after it's existence was pointed out. (but I'm guessing you didn't watch that video either.

Actually, I have seen that video. I don't lack understanding in typology, though of course I am not naive enough to claim I know everything, either. I don't feel like you can necessarily grasp an accurate type out of one video, even though there may be many clues. There are so many overlapping correlations and patterns that it can be difficult to determine the exact combination of factors that resulted in it, and I am surprised that you are so sure of your conclusions.

Well you must be an enfj so.

I'm not an ENFJ. I've gone through years of figuring out my type and I'm 110% certain of ENFP, even though my next best-fit is probably ESFJ, whereas many other ENFPs would probably relate to ENTP or INFP first. I think being an enneagram 6 has a big impact on me, as does Social-first, but my cognitive process is E-N-F-P through and through.

 

[Standuble]

Ok well first, I have to ask how you came to type yourself as an infp.? Do you go on the function order or the type description?

The reason I ask is that Myers Briggs switched the function order and in my opinion made an absolute mess of it, so one person's idea of Ni, Fe, can mean infj for some, and infp for others. Depending on how well they understand the functions. If they relate to Ni or Fi. Or if they don't understand the functions they'll just go off the type description.

In Socionics the function order is Fi, Ne, Ti, Se for INFj. So some people look at the type descriptions for infj in mbti and see that they are introverted planners who are also dreamers and look at the Socionics description and see that INFj's are also introverted planners and dreamers. But when they look at the cognitive functions for an infj they see that in mbti the infj is labelled with using Ni, Fe, Ti, Se, and Fi, Ne, Ti, Se in Socionics. Which makes them conclude that mbti infj = Socionics INFp.

Some people think it's a simple case of switching the j and p, but since the infj person (archetype) being described is the same in both systems, this is just wrong to do. I don't think Myers Brigs really understood the functions. They just had a very good understanding of people, and noticed the same characters repeating throughout history and literature. And this is where they approached the subject from.

Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well. Bear with me.

Are you this?



infj


creative, smart, focus on fantasy more than reality, fears doing the wrong thing, observer, avoidant, fears drawing attention to self, anxious, cautious, somewhat easily frightened, easily offended, private, easily hurt, socially uncomfortable, emotionally moody, does not like to be looked at, fearful, perfectionist, can sabotage self, can be wounded at the core, values solitude, guarded, does not like crowds, organized,more likely to support marijuana legalization, focuses on peoples hidden motives, prone to crying, not competitive, prone to feelings of loneliness, not spontaneous, prone to sadness, longs for a stabilizing relationship, fears rejection in relationships, frequently worried, can feel victimized, prone to intimidation, lower energy, strict with self


Or are you this?


infp

creative, smart, idealist, attracted to sad things, disorganized, avoidant, can be overwhelmed by unpleasant feelings, prone to quitting, prone to feelings of loneliness, ambivalent of the rules, solitary, daydreams about people to maintain a sense of closeness, focus on fantasies, acts without planning, low self confidence, emotionally moody, can feel defective, prone to lateness, likes esoteric things, wounded at the core, feels shame, frequently losing things, prone to sadness, prone to dreaming about a rescuer, disorderly, observer, easily distracted, does not like crowds, can act without thinking, private, can feel uncomfortable around others, familiar with the darkside, more likely to support marijuana legalization, can sabotage self, likes the rain, sometimes can't control fearful thoughts, prone to crying, prone to regret, attracted to the counter culture, can be submissive, prone to feeling discouraged, frequently second guesses self, not punctual, not always prepared, can feel victimized, prone to confusion, prone to irresponsibility, can be pessimistic


I bolded the main differences between the types, from this list of adjectives.

You wasted your time mate in all honesty. I came to type myself through years of cognitive function study. I'm not going to waste any time just buying into the Forer Effect inherent in the type descriptions. I neither asked nor needed assistance in the matter. I was merely after some popcorn entertainment on Youtube.

P.S. You didn't mean this response for someone else did you? I have no idea why you mentioned socionics.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

YES. I agree. The manner. Not trying to put something on.



Yes exactly! These are exactly how I felt too.



Lol, that one threw me for a loop too.




Like I've already said, no, I did not listen to the whole video, and I did not make the argument that she wasn't ENFP. I just said that she makes me think Fe.



Actually, I have seen that video. I don't lack understanding in typology, though of course I am not naive enough to claim I know everything, either. I don't feel like you can necessarily grasp an accurate type out of one video, even though there may be many clues. There are so many overlapping correlations and patterns that it can be difficult to determine the exact combination of factors that resulted in it, and I am surprised that you are so sure of your conclusions.



I'm not an ENFJ. I've gone through years of figuring out my type and I'm 110% certain of ENFP, even though my next best-fit is probably ESFJ, whereas many other ENFPs would probably relate to ENTP or INFP first. I think being an enneagram 6 has a big impact on me, as does Social-first, but my cognitive process is E-N-F-P through and through.

What parts of the enfj and esfj descriptions don't fit you?

 

[Eye of the Potato]

You wasted your time mate in all honesty. I came to type myself through years of cognitive function study. I'm not going to waste any time just buying into the Forer Effect inherent in the type descriptions. I neither asked nor needed assistance in the matter. I was merely after some popcorn entertainment on Youtube.

P.S. You didn't mean this response for someone else did you? I have no idea why you mentioned socionics.

Because Socionics got the function order right and Myers Briggs fucked it up. And to clear up the confusion between the two systems.
Yeah I suppose I went off on a tangent. Sue me.

So if you studied the functions and came to the conclusion you're an mbti infp, then that must mean you believe yourself to be Fi, Ne. That's what I was asking.
It's important to make that distinction.

The forer effect only applies if you have low self awareness.

From my observations on this site and PerC. Most people don't understand the cognitive functions at all. So when they base their type on functions that they don't even understand, they make a mess of it. Myers Briggs didn't help this situation because of the way they messed with the function order for the introverts.
That's why I asked are you this


creative, smart, focus on fantasy more than reality, attracted to sad things, fears doing the wrong thing, observer, avoidant, fears drawing attention to self, anxious, cautious, somewhat easily frightened, easily offended, private, easily hurt, socially uncomfortable, emotionally moody, does not like to be looked at, fearful, perfectionist, can sabotage self, can be wounded at the core, values solitude, guarded, does not like crowds, organized, second guesses self, more likely to support marijuana legalization, focuses on peoples hidden motives, prone to crying, not competitive, prone to feelings of loneliness, not spontaneous, prone to sadness, longs for a stabilizing relationship, fears rejection in relationships, frequently worried, can feel victimized, prone to intimidation, lower energy, strict with self



or this




creative, smart, idealist, attracted to sad things, disorganized, avoidant, can be overwhelmed by unpleasant feelings, prone to quitting, prone to feelings of loneliness, ambivalent of the rules, solitary, daydreams about people to maintain a sense of closeness, focus on fantasies, acts without planning, low self confidence, emotionally moody, can feel defective, prone to lateness, likes esoteric things, wounded at the core, feels shame, frequently losing things, prone to sadness, prone to dreaming about a rescuer, disorderly, observer, easily distracted, does not like crowds, can act without thinking, private, can feel uncomfortable around others, familiar with the darkside, hermit, more likely to support marijuana legalization, can sabotage self, likes the rain, sometimes can't control fearful thoughts, prone to crying, prone to regret, attracted to the counter culture, can be submissive, prone to feeling discouraged, frequently second guesses self, not punctual, not always prepared, can feel victimized, prone to confusion, prone to irresponsibility, can be pessimistic

 

[Standuble]

[MENTION=20054]Eye of the Potato[/MENTION] - I studied MBTI to determine my MBTI type. I have made no real effort to learn my socionics type nor the theory in general but the first thought that came to mind was that socionics was a mess.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn6Pp40Za-A

This girl describes Ni really well.

Maybe we should throw away the terms infj and infp and just call them Ni, Fe and Fi, Ne instead, to avoid more confusion.

Which is actually how Socionics operates. It's mbti that uses the four dichotomy's of I/E S/N F/T J/P to type someone. So if someone came to mbti by studying the functions, they are really practicing Socionics without even realising it. And the ironic thing is that the people I have come across who approach it in that way, by the functions, are the ones most opposed to Socionics. Funny that, isn't it.

 

[Lady_X]

i don't care much for socionics either.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

I was actually banned from PerC loads of times for going to the istp forum and bumping heads with istj's ( my opposite, my conflictor) who typed themselves istp because they were going by the functions.

Yet the istp's ( artful technicians, baddasses, The Danger, The Rebel, Clint Eastwood types etc...) were going off the type descriptions. ISTp's can't be arsed going into the details of the functions, you see. They just care that they are badasses. That's enough info for them. They value Te you see. They value the facts. Not speculation like a Ti dom ( ISTj ) would.

So what happened was there were loads of istj's, who thought they were istp's hanging out in the istp forum giving advice to enfp's and the enfp's naturally rubbed them up the wrong way and war broke out. And it's still going on. And it pisses me off.

I was a bit of a mess when I'd turned to PerC for advice, I will admit. So I can't blame the istj's for hating me. In case there are any istj's from that forum reading this. Sorry about all that. But you'd be a mess too, if you had no choice but to use your weakest functions all the time, for years and years with no let up. You know you would.

 

[Standuble]

I was actually banned from PerC loads of times for going to the istp forum and bumping heads with istj's ( my opposite, my conflictor) who typed themselves istp because they were going by the functions.

Yet the istp's ( artful technicians, baddasses, The Danger, The Rebel, Clint Eastwood types etc...) were going off the type descriptions. ISTp's can't be arsed going into the details of the functions, you see. They just care that they are badasses. That's enough info for them. They value Te you see. They value the facts. Not speculation like a Ti dom ( ISTj ) would.

So what happened was there were loads of istj's, who thought they were istp's hanging out in the istp forum giving advice to enfp's and the enfp's naturally rubbed them up the wrong way and war broke out. And it's still going on. And it pisses me off.

I was a bit of a mess when I'd turned to PerC for advice, I will admit. So I can't blame the istj's for hating me. In case there are any istj's from that forum reading this. Sorry about all that. But you'd be a mess too, if you had no choice but to use your weakest functions all the time, for years and years with no let up. You know you would.

I think ISTJs do end up using their inferior function a lot e.g. being forced to consider the negative possibilities of being late for work/missing a deadline etc. They live in a world of organisation and realise that order only continues when the pieces work as they should. The possible consequences of the order coming apart really fucks with their poor little heads. They make up for it however (well my little brother did) by convincing himself that he was "random" (I've been advised that convincing oneself of being competent in it is actually a common approach to one's inferior function) however his "randomness" merely consisted of him quoting random movie or game characters word to word. No attempt to make or create his own.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

I think ISTJs do end up using their inferior function a lot e.g. being forced to consider the negative possibilities of being late for work/missing a deadline etc. They live in a world of organisation and realise that order only continues when the pieces work as they should. The possible consequences of the order coming apart really fucks with their poor little heads. They make up for it however (well my little brother did) by convincing himself that he was "random" (I've been advised that convincing oneself of being competent in it is actually a common approach to one's inferior function) however his "randomness" merely consisted of him quoting random movie or game characters word to word. No attempt to make or create his own.

What I mean by being forced to use your inferior functions, would equate to an istj being forced to change jobs every week and that job involving empathising with people all day long, and talking about their feelings. They wouldn't be able to handle it without going a little mad. It would be a nightmare situation for an istj.

For me, I had to take care of my sick daughter. I had no choice in the matter. It involved keeping schedules for her to take her meds, physio twice a day, scheduling hospital appointments, collecting meds from the pharmacy, housework etc. And because I was a single parent, I was at home alone most of the time going stir crazy. Enfp's need to be around people. Solitude ruins us. She's 15 now and I still have to do all that, but I have a little bit more freedom. My sanity has returned now that I have more time to myself. It's made me who I am today though, so it's not all bad.

 

[Dr Mobius]

[MENTION=20054]Eye of the Potato[/MENTION] - I studied MBTI to determine my MBTI type. I have made no real effort to learn my socionics type nor the theory in general but the first thought that came to mind was that socionics was a mess.

It is a complete mess. The thing to remember about socionics is that it is spiritualism, a religious experience; to question it is to question a divine mandate.

Which is actually how Socionics operates. It's mbti that uses the four dichotomy's of I/E S/N F/T J/P to type someone. So if someone came to mbti by studying the functions, they are really practicing Socionics without even realising it. And the ironic thing is that the people I have come across who approach it in that way, by the functions, are the ones most opposed to Socionics. Funny that, isn't it.

No they are not; people start with MBTI which is simplified on purpose; the idea behind MBTI being to reduce it down to statistically testable variables. Because unlike socionics they knew that they needed evidence for it to ever be taken seriously. Cognitive functions is an extension of MBTI, and it is different from socionics in that it admits it is all an unproven theory, dealing how people’s minds potentially work not rigidly boxing people in.

As for people who use cognitive functions doubting you, well that is a product of learning about typology, the more you know the more you question. No one who was sat down and critically thought through MBTI, cognitive functions, enneagram, instinctual variants, and socionics can take socionics seriously. The lack of evidence is bad enough, but the absolute certainty of things like duality (which condone a quite horrid form of co-dependent relationship), VI (ever heard of something called genetics?), without a hint of an original and independent thought is terrifying.

i don't care much for socionics either.

That is a pretty natural reaction no one outside of the old Soviet Union takes it seriously. Extremely detailed with zero evidence to back it up, and yet its proponents are always such zealots.

I was actually banned from PerC loads of times for going to the istp forum and bumping heads with istj's ( my opposite, my conflictor) who typed themselves istp because they were going by the functions.

Yet the istp's ( artful technicians, baddasses, The Danger, The Rebel, Clint Eastwood types etc...) were going off the type descriptions. ISTp's can't be arsed going into the details of the functions, you see. They just care that they are badasses. That's enough info for them. They value Te you see. They value the facts. Not speculation like a Ti dom ( ISTj ) would.

So what happened was there were loads of istj's, who thought they were istp's hanging out in the istp forum giving advice to enfp's and the enfp's naturally rubbed them up the wrong way and war broke out. And it's still going on. And it pisses me off.

To be completely honest at this point I’m not entirely sure you understand the difference between MBTI and socionics. On one hand you use the key word statistics which I believe was an MBTI test done at several universities. You then proceed to say you went into the PerC ISTP forum which is widely understood (since PerC is a MBTI forum) to be the equivalent of socionics ISTj, and then tell them there all mistyped, and getting it wrong? Why did you simply not go to the ISTJ forum? I think you may have mangled up the MBTI statistics with socionics templates, and created some bizarre hybrid.

I was a bit of a mess when I'd turned to PerC for advice, I will admit. So I can't blame the istj's for hating me. In case there are any istj's from that forum reading this. Sorry about all that. But you'd be a mess too, if you had no choice but to use your weakest functions all the time, for years and years with no let up. You know you would.

Most people who join these forums are complete messes, the problem with socionics is that it boxes you in, sure it’s safe and comfortable, and life is so much easier when everything is so nicely tied up right? But it also stops any personal growth; I mean I bet that those thought patterns and habits that made you so miserable are still there. You would undoubtedly have detailed rationalisations as to why you do it, but no answers as to how to move past it. socionics is a cocoon at some point if you want to grow as a person you will have to leave it behind.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

It is a complete mess. The thing to remember about socionics is that it is spiritualism, a religious experience; to question it is to question a divine mandate.



No they are not; people start with MBTI which is simplified on purpose; the idea behind MBTI being to reduce it down to statistically testable variables. Because unlike socionics they knew that they needed evidence for it to ever be taken seriously. Cognitive functions is an extension of MBTI, and it is different from socionics in that it admits it is all an unproven theory, dealing how people’s minds potentially work not rigidly boxing people in.

As for people who use cognitive functions doubting you, well that is a product of learning about typology, the more you know the more you question. No one who was sat down and critically thought through MBTI, cognitive functions, enneagram, instinctual variants, and socionics can take socionics seriously. The lack of evidence is bad enough, but the absolute certainty of things like duality (which condone a quite horrid form of co-dependent relationship), VI (ever heard of something called genetics?), without a hint of an original and independent thought is terrifying.




That is a pretty natural reaction no one outside of the old Soviet Union takes it seriously. Extremely detailed with zero evidence to back it up, and yet its proponents are always such zealots.



To be completely honest at this point I’m not entirely sure you understand the difference between MBTI and socionics. On one hand you use the key word statistics which I believe was an MBTI test done at several universities. You then proceed to say you went into the PerC ISTP forum which is widely understood (since PerC is a MBTI forum) to be the equivalent of socionics ISTj, and then tell them there all mistyped, and getting it wrong? Why did you simply not go to the ISTJ forum? I think you may have mangled up the MBTI statistics with socionics templates, and created some bizarre hybrid.



Most people who join these forums are complete messes, the problem with socionics is that it boxes you in, sure it’s safe and comfortable, and life is so much easier when everything is so nicely tied up right? But it also stops any personal growth; I mean I bet that those thought patterns and habits that made you so miserable are still there. You would undoubtedly have detailed rationalisations as to why you do it, but no answers as to how to move past it. socionics is a cocoon at some point if you want to grow as a person you will have to leave it behind.

Actually I have grown heaps in the last few years. I'm far more focused now than I ever was before. I really like the person I have become.
And it was actually an istp who opened my eyes to everything I was doing wrong. Every single thing he pointed out where I was going wrong was on point.
And I showed him that he is capable of being in a meaningful relationship. It didn't work out between us, because we both had issues, he didn't respect me cos I was such a mess I suppose, but he did love me and is still trying to get back with me. I don't know. Maybe in time if he grows up I might give things another go. But for now, I'm happy working on making myself happy. I know for a fact he'd be proud of how far I have come. I really do have my shit together. And it was him who woke me up to myself.

Whatever though. Think whatever you want. This place is starting to give me a headache.

 

[Dr Mobius]

Actually I have grown heaps in the last few years. I'm far more focused now than I ever was before. I really like the person I have become.
And it was actually an istp who opened my eyes to everything I was doing wrong. Every single thing he pointed out where I was going wrong was on point.
And I showed him that he is capable of being in a meaningful relationship. It didn't work out between us, because we both had issues, he didn't respect me cos I was such a mess I suppose, but he did love me and is still trying to get back with me. I don't know. Maybe in time if he grows up I might give things another go. But for now, I'm happy working on making myself happy. I know for a fact he'd be proud of how far I have come. I really do have my shit together. And it was him who woke me up to myself.

Actually I wasn’t asking whether you were happier; happiness being a transient state that soon resets to default neurochemical levels. I was asking whether you were objectively a more impressive person, and whether had you never seen socionics would that have changed what you are now. But you unintentionally answered my question anyway so it doesn’t really matter

Whatever though. Think whatever you want. This place is starting to give me a headache.

I’m not surprised, but I am confused, you are fully cognisant of the fact this place started out as a MBTI and cognitive function forum (something you admit to caring little for)? It was at one point called MBTI Central. If ever you were barking up the wrong tree it’s this one. This is probably going to sound extremely condescending; but have you tried the dedicated socionics forums? http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin/content.php 16 types had a pretty thriving forum last time I checked there is also socionics.com and a host of Russian sites out there as well. It just seems to put it in an analogy that you really wanted ice cream, and then ended up at a pizza shop; it doesn’t really make a lot of sense. I just don’t believe that you’re going to get the responses you want here.

 

[Eye of the Potato]

....................................

 

[Eye of the Potato]

You obviously didn't watch the video's of the istp either. And everything I've been saying went right over your head.

I'll put it another way.

My sister is a very typical intj. I could show her either type descrption and they would both describe her to a T.

mbti intj



INTJ in a Nutshell

INTJs are analytical problem-solvers, eager to improve systems and processes with their innovative ideas. They have a talent for seeing possibilities for improvement, whether at work, at home, or in themselves.

Often intellectual, INTJs enjoy logical reasoning and complex problem-solving. They approach life by analyzing the theory behind what they see, and are typically focused inward, on their own thoughtful study of the world around them. INTJs are drawn to logical systems and are much less comfortable with the unpredictable nature of other people and their emotions. They are typically independent and selective about their relationships, preferring to associate with people who they find intellectually stimulating.




What Makes the INTJ Tick

INTJs are perceptive about systems and strategy, and often understand the world as a chess board to be navigated. They want to understand how systems work, and how events proceed: the INTJ often has a unique ability to foresee logical outcomes. They enjoy applying themselves to a project or idea in depth, and putting in concentrated effort to achieve their goals.

INTJs have a hunger for knowledge and strive to constantly increase their competence; they are often perfectionists with extremely high standards of performance for themselves and others. They tend to have a keen interest in self-improvement and are lifelong learners, always looking to add to their base of information and awareness.




Recognizing an INTJ

INTJs are typically reserved and serious, and seem to spend a lot of time thinking. They are curious about the world around them and often want to know the principle behind what they see. They thoroughly examine the information they receive, and if asked a question, will typically consider it at length before presenting a careful, complex answer. INTJs think critically and clearly, and often have an idea about how to do something more efficiently. They can be blunt in their presentation, and often communicate in terms of the larger strategy, leaving out the details.

Although INTJs aren’t usually warm or particularly gregarious, they tend to have a self-assured manner with people based on their own security in their intelligence. They relate their ideas with confidence, and once they have arrived at a conclusion they fully expect others to see the wisdom in their perceptions. They are typically perfectionists and appreciate an environment of intellectual challenge. They enjoy discussing interesting ideas, and may get themselves into trouble because of their take-no-prisoners attitude: if someone’s beliefs don’t make logical sense, the Mastermind typically has no qualms about pointing that out.

Research on INTJ

Interesting facts about the INTJ:
• On personality trait measures, score as Discreet, Industrious, Logical, Deliberate, Self-Confident, and Methodical
• Among types least likely to suffer heart disease and cardiac problems
• Least likely of all the types to believe in a higher spiritual power
• One of two types with highest college GPA
• Among types with highest income
• Personal values include Achievement



Socionics intj

LIIs are adept at organizing their understanding into structured thought. They may organize their cogitations into categories, diagrams, formulaic descriptions, or complex step by step explanations. LIIs may have an uncanny knack for understanding, constructing, and deconstructing the abstract and delicate internal workings of abstract systems like computers, natural phenomena, gadgets, abstract concepts, mathematical equations, and anything that captures their interest. They may be extremely precise in their understanding and can tend strive for highly detailed realizations. They can be skilled at synthesizing new information and incorporating into their established categories. They are often attracted to fields like mathematics, physics, chemistry, or other areas of study that deal with highly structured information systems.

LIIs are often highly attuned to the premises of logical consistency and adherence to predefined principles. They may use such unifying principles as a basis off of which to make normative or philosophical judgments and often seek to communicate these ideas to others. LIIs can be difficult for others to understand because they tend to avoid explaining the intermediate steps in their reasoning, seeing only the conclusion as important.

LIIs are, in the colloquial sense, highly rational creatures and may pride themselves on so being. They may live highly structured or regimented lifestyles and can be quite proactive.

Extroverted Intuition (Ne, Ne)

LIIs are greatly in tune with novel connections and the possibilities that exist which they could see their systems and analyses applied towards. They are able to see a myriad of concepts and hence strive to cover different and new fields which have not been touched by their logical analysis. They may avoid harping on one area for too long, instead preferring to expand their theoretical constructs, covering various territory through time; to restrict their logical scope would be to hinder true understanding.

LIIs' primary focus in developing new ideas is to categorize, systematize, and promote understanding about them. They may tend to see novel ideas that have no implications or relevance to a larger ideational framework as disinteresting and pointless. At the same time, LIIs are often minimally interested in real-world application of their ideas, instead preferring abstract and theoretical speculation. They often tend towards contemplative academic fields which allow for abstract speculation to be realized in concrete conclusions.

LIIs typically tolerate unusual lifestyles and they usually tolerate differing viewpoints.

Super-ego block

Introverted Ethics (Fi, Fi)

LIIs are capable of understanding their internal feelings and affections, but they tend to place only a subdued importance on the ethical code of their experience. They may take a rather Ti-centric approach to conventional morality. They may see it as their duty to observe general propriety and etiquette, and to be just and preserve their integrity. Their attempts at being proper, good, and ethical may seem stiff, if not forced. At the same time, LIIs do not generally apply moral judgments to others and often do not like to be judged themselves. Nonetheless, LIIs do try to be just, fair, and follow the system of rules that they impose for themselves morally.

LIIs tend to not readily understand deep personal connections and may be minimally confident in having to assess the nuances or strength of their personal relationships. Such emotions may seem to them to be too subjective and too hard to analyze or understand with any degree of logical precision. They tend to keep all acquaintances at a large psychological distance whether they are strangers or family members or friends, and may not have a deep understanding of interpersonal boundaries or what psychological distance is appopriate to a given social context. LIIs typically struggle in shifting psychological distance and usually end up coming off as dry, stagnant, and formal. They may often have difficulty expressing their sympathies or compassionate side towards others, and can be characteristically blunt and unrespecting of relational boundaries. They also can experience difficulty understanding their disposition or the disposition of others towards them, especially when no obvious emotional signs are given.

Extroverted Sensing (Se, Se)

LIIs typically respond poorly to and have difficulty applying volitional pressure. They treat most situations in calculated, rational, and realistic fashions, and they tend to have little response for individuals who operate outside of the boundaries of applying rational criteria to the situation at hand. They often have difficulty impelling others to follow their leadership; in practice, they often work independently. LIIs in possession of a problem that can't be solved intellectually, instead requiring direct personal confrontation may resort to total avoidance; LIIs feel that such a situation would in all likelihood produce only frustration and contempt. They may wish that everyone simply listened to reason.

LIIs may see attempts to rile them up or spring them into activity as crude, intrusive, and insulting to their intelligence. They may see such pushy or forceful attempts to control them as hopelessly closed-minded and at odds with their sense of intellectual freedom. They may have difficulty adapting to impulsive or spontaneous behavior, instead preferring stable environments that encourage an accepting and warm atmosphere.

LIIs are often not cognizant of power dynamics and have little interest in who has control over a situation.

Super-id block

Extroverted Ethics (Fe, Fe)

LIIs are usually lacking in outward emotional energy. LIIs may typically seem stiff, cold, rational, unresponsive to emotional concerns, and overly formal in social settings. LIIs may feel uneasy and insecure about their adaptability to social situations. They appreciate the interactive efforts of others to make them feel comfortable, at ease, and a part of the group. They tend to liven up in situations of amusement and conviviality. In situations where they feel comfortable and unconditionally accepted, they may drop their tendency towards aloofness and engage in uncharacteristic silliness.

LIIs may be highly sensitive to the signs of emotional approval that they receive from others. They may be highly appreciative of displays of emotional warmth and friendliness. They may find normative emotional expectations placed on them to be stifling, and tend to prefer nonjudgmental environments without character scrutiny. Additionally, for fear of emotional reprisal, LIIs often tend to be rather noncritical of others' actions.

LIIs may be quite susceptible to acting in accordance to the mood of others, and may undervalue the importance of avoiding argumentation on their mental well-being.

Introverted Sensing (Si, Si)

LIIs are not naturally very adept at understanding their internal physical needs and may generally neglect them, seeing them as not really worth their time. They may feel a need to present themselves as competent in dealing with their surrounding physical environment to others, and may be disheartened if directly criticized about their lack of environmental or bodily awareness. They tend to appreciate individuals who naturally direct themselves towards attending to the needs of others by force of habit and without explicit direction.

LIIs can underemphasize the importance of physical well-being and comfort on their overall mental health and functioning.

Id block

Extroverted Logic (Te, Te)

LIIs usually have little interest in thinking of or implementing practical applications for their ideas. They usually display little interest in how the ideas or structures they produce relate to the outside world; instead, they tend to focus primarily on furthering, building upon, and exploring the implications of their internal systems. They may also tend to have little spontaneous inclination to conceptualize situations in terms of efficiency, expenditure of resources, or pragmatic concerns; instead, they may focus more extensively on philosophical or rational principles and structured codes of living -- though many LIIs are not so austere.

Introverted Intuition (Ni, Ni)

LIIs often have active imaginations, but usually do not invest much energy in pondering the products of their reflections or considering events of personal history. They are often not terribly concerned with considering trends or patterns/directions of historical interest.




Yeah. You see. The same person is being described in both systems.

 

[Dr Mobius]

You obviously didn't watch the video's of the istp either. And everything I've been saying went right over your head.

As far as I can tell your point is: "hey look at this guy he obviously isn't such and such only a blind person couldn't see; what is this thing you call reason or evidence i know nought of it!"

I'll put it another way.

My sister is a very typical intj. I could show her either type descrption and they would both describe her to a T.

oh I cannot believe I actually bothered to do this, but those two descriptions do not match in fact they quite often contradict each, did you even read the descriptions before you posted them? Firstly you should know that back in the 90’s with the fall of communism the heads of socionics tried very hard to integrate the two systems, but ultimately failed. Hence the disclaimer you often find on socionics sites not to try to mix and mingle them.

I am going to put the MBTI description in blue, and the socionics description in red to avoid confusion.

INTJs are analytical problem-solvers, eager to improve systems and processes with their innovative ideas. They have a talent for seeing possibilities for improvement, whether at work, at home, or in themselves.

LIIs are adept at organizing their understanding into structured thought. They may organize their cogitations into categories, diagrams, formulaic descriptions, or complex step by step explanations. LIIs may have an uncanny knack for understanding, constructing, and deconstructing the abstract and delicate internal workings of abstract systems like computers, natural phenomena, gadgets, abstract concepts, mathematical equations, and anything that captures their interest. They may be extremely precise in their understanding and can tend strive for highly detailed realizations. They can be skilled at synthesizing new information and incorporating into their established categories. They are often attracted to fields like mathematics, physics, chemistry, or other areas of study that deal with highly structured information systems.


LIIs' primary focus in developing new ideas is to categorize, systematize, and promote understanding about them. They may tend to see novel ideas that have no implications or relevance to a larger ideational framework as disinteresting and pointless. At the same time, LIIs are often minimally interested in real-world application of their ideas, instead preferring abstract and theoretical speculation. They often tend towards contemplative academic fields which allow for abstract speculation to be realized in concrete conclusions.

Contradiction 1
Now in the first piece we have an analytical problem solver; and a problem solver by their very nature are practical and pragmatic people, enjoying theory only up to the point it can be applied. Yet in the second piece the character is described as someone who revels in abstract concepts for abstract concept sake; the idea being vastly more important than the application. This is reinforced by the third quote where they flat out say they have no interest in real world application ie problem solving.

They are typically independent and selective about their relationships, preferring to associate with people who they find intellectually stimulating.

LIIs tend to not readily understand deep personal connections and may be minimally confident in having to assess the nuances or strength of their personal relationships. Such emotions may seem to them to be too subjective and too hard to analyze or understand with any degree of logical precision. They tend to keep all acquaintances at a large psychological distance whether they are strangers or family members or friends, and may not have a deep understanding of interpersonal boundaries or what psychological distance is appopriate to a given social context. LIIs typically struggle in shifting psychological distance and usually end up coming off as dry, stagnant, and formal. They may often have difficulty expressing their sympathies or compassionate side towards others, and can be characteristically blunt and unrespecting of relational boundaries. They also can experience difficulty understanding their disposition or the disposition of others towards them, especially when no obvious emotional signs are given.

Contradiction 2
The first quote describes a person who needs a person to meet intellectual barriers before a more intimate relationship can begin. The second describe someone on the autism scale, completely unable to connect with anyone.

INTJs are perceptive about systems and strategy, and often understand the world as a chess board to be navigated. They want to understand how systems work, and how events proceed: the INTJ often has a unique ability to foresee logical outcomes. They enjoy applying themselves to a project or idea in depth, and putting in concentrated effort to achieve their goals.

LIIs are greatly in tune with novel connections and the possibilities that exist which they could see their systems and analyses applied towards. They are able to see a myriad of concepts and hence strive to cover different and new fields which have not been touched by their logical analysis. They may avoid harping on one area for too long, instead preferring to expand their theoretical constructs, covering various territory through time; to restrict their logical scope would be to hinder true understanding.

Contradiction 3
The first quote describe someone who is extremely focused and has set goals; a specialist. The other describes a polymath where the learning itself is the goal.

They can be blunt in their presentation, and often communicate in terms of the larger strategy, leaving out the details.

Although INTJs aren’t usually warm or particularly gregarious, they tend to have a self-assured manner with people based on their own security in their intelligence. They relate their ideas with confidence, and once they have arrived at a conclusion they fully expect others to see the wisdom in their perceptions. They are typically perfectionists and appreciate an environment of intellectual challenge. They enjoy discussing interesting ideas, and may get themselves into trouble because of their take-no-prisoners attitude: if someone’s beliefs don’t make logical sense, the Mastermind typically has no qualms about pointing that out.

LIIs may be highly sensitive to the signs of emotional approval that they receive from others. They may be highly appreciative of displays of emotional warmth and friendliness. They may find normative emotional expectations placed on them to be stifling, and tend to prefer nonjudgmental environments without character scrutiny. Additionally, for fear of emotional reprisal, LIIs often tend to be rather noncritical of others' actions.

Contradiction Four
Quote one states a blunt and forceful interactive form of communication. Quote two reinforces this and relates a calm confident persona. Quote three shows someone who is uncomfortable and scared often, and who needs to feel safe to communicate properly, and someone who is in no shape or form self-confident

Yeah. You see. The same person is being described in both systems.

No I’m afraid I actually bothered to read the descriptions, and I’m not going to lie my dissection was extremely half arsed; I could have probably torn them down further had I the inclination. As I stated at the start of this post: Socionics experts tried to integrate the system and failed; what makes you so confident that you can put humpdy dumpdy back together again?

 

[Eye of the Potato]

What are u talking about? The fall of communism?????
It was developed independently of mbti in the 70's. How can you not know that?

Are you afraid the Commies are going to come and get you or something? ha ha ha That's fucking hilarious.




Socionics is a branch of psychology that studies relationships between psychological types. It is based on somewhat modified system of psychological types described by C.G.Jung in his Psychological Types (1916, 1920 etc.) and Tavistock Lectures (1935).

You also know a different version of Jungian typology known as the Myers-Briggs Type Theory (MBTT). It is based on the test called Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI). It is well known in the US, and for the last years in Europe as well.

The Myers-Briggs Type Theory is sometimes confused with socionics, although there are some differences between these two theories. Let us describe them shortly:
1.Different methods of type evaluation. MBTT almost completely relies upon tests, while socionics from the beginning developed alternative methods – determining type by interviewing, observation, etc. Verbal testing is considered as a secondary, not primary method, because it says nothing about the nature of types. This does not mean that tests are not known in socionics. For example we the authors of this article developed the Socionic Multifactor Test, which we are going to discuss below. In the last years socionics focuses on biological parameters of types.
2.Somewhat different definitions of the 4 basic type criteria. In MBTT, the type is defined as 4 basic choices: extraversion (E) or introversion (I), sensing (S) or intuition (N), thinking (T) or feeling (F), judgment (J) or perception (P). Socionics uses terms logic/ethic – instead of thinking/feeling, and rationality/irrationality – instead of perception/judgment. However, more important is the contents of these definitions, they do not always coincide.
3.Intertype relationships. Although several representatives of MBTT proposed their own views on compatibility between the Myers-Briggs types, a thorough theory of intertype relationships does not exist in MBTT. By contrast, Socionics, from the very beginning, was created as a theory describing and explaining some regularities of relations between people.

On the other hand, there is also a lot in common between these two theories. Main fields of application are the same: family and business consulting, education etc. When first publications about MBTT appeared in the former USSR (a very short overview appeared in 1984, and several popular books were translated since 1994), socionists found a lot of useful information there. We believe in fruitful cooperation between these two branches of Jungian typology is possible; we should not forget about the differences, but we believe they can be resolved.



There now, that's copied and pasted from this site.

http://www.socioniko.net/en/articles/lytovs-intro1.html

Where's your proof to back up what your claiming?

Come on. Where is it?


Your first point. (I'll color yours brown cos of your shitty condescending attitude. )

Contradiction 1
Now in the first piece we have an analytical problem solver; and a problem solver by their very nature are practical and pragmatic people, enjoying theory only up to the point it can be applied. Yet in the second piece the character is described as someone who revels in abstract concepts for abstract concept sake; the idea being vastly more important than the application. This is reinforced by the third quote where they flat out say they have no interest in real world application ie problem solving.





INTJs are analytical problem-solvers, eager to improve systems and processes with their innovative ideas. They have a talent for seeing possibilities for improvement, whether at work, at home, or in themselves.

Often intellectual, INTJs enjoy logical reasoning and complex problem-solving. They approach life by analyzing the theory behind what they see, and are typically focused inward, on their own thoughtful study of the world around them. INTJs are drawn to logical systems and are much less comfortable with the unpredictable nature of other people and their emotions. They are typically independent and selective about their relationships, preferring to associate with people who they find intellectually stimulating.





LIIs are adept at organizing their understanding into structured thought. They may organize their cogitations into categories, diagrams, formulaic descriptions, or complex step by step explanations. LIIs may have an uncanny knack for understanding, constructing, and deconstructing the abstract and delicate internal workings of abstract systems like computers, natural phenomena, gadgets, abstract concepts, mathematical equations, and anything that captures their interest. They may be extremely precise in their understanding and can tend strive for highly detailed realizations. They can be skilled at synthesizing new information and incorporating into their established categories. They are often attracted to fields like mathematics, physics, chemistry, or other areas of study that deal with highly structured information systems.


See. One says theory, the other one says abstract. They're basically the same thing.
You're just cherry picking, to make your point. Why did you leave out the second paragraph of the mbti description that says they approach life by analysing the theory?
WHY????



You're second point.


Contradiction 2
The first quote describes a person who needs a person to meet intellectual barriers before a more intimate relationship can begin. The second describe someone on the autism scale, completely unable to connect with anyone.


INTJs are drawn to logical systems and are much less comfortable with the unpredictable nature of other people and their emotions.They are typically independent and selective about their relationships. They can be blunt in their presentation, .


LIIs are capable of understanding their internal feelings and affections, but they tend to place only a subdued importance on the ethical code of their experience. They may take a rather Ti-centric approach to conventional morality. LIIs tend to not readily understand deep personal connections and may be minimally confident in having to assess the nuances or strength of their personal relationships. Such emotions may seem to them to be too subjective and too hard to analyze or understand with any degree of logical precision. They tend to keep all acquaintances at a large psychological distance whether they are strangers or family members or friends, and may not have a deep understanding of interpersonal boundaries or what psychological distance is appopriate to a given social context. LIIs typically struggle in shifting psychological distance and usually end up coming off as dry, stagnant, and formal. They may often have difficulty expressing their sympathies or compassionate side towards others, and can be characteristically blunt and unrespecting of relational boundaries. They also can experience difficulty understanding their disposition or the disposition of others towards them, especially when no obvious emotional signs are given.





They're not so different.

I'll leave it at that for now cos I have shit to do. I'll answer in more detail when I have more time.