User Tag List

12 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 19

  1. #1
    Junior Member MacKellar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    3
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    6

    Default ISTP communication barrier with ISTJ?

    All right, let me lay it out for you. My younger brother is an ISTP. He's really smart, technical, spends hours working on models of plastic cars and the like. He likes to walk on the wild side, and takes his time with tasks unless he feels the need to move faster. He'd also direct, tactless, and likes things to be expressed to him clearly the first time: No hidden double meanings and no mind reading.

    Our mother is an ISTJ. She's fairly reasonable, always supportive, usually very calm and good at creating order among chaos. She'll listen to other ideas and allow people to take over if they're better equipped for the situation. She likes things to be in a just so and for it to all work out right the first time.

    So this is where I need a little insight. My brother is budding into his twenties, and still has the teenager attitude of 'I know everything.' These two have been butting heads like crazy! My mother says something and it sets my brother off, or vice versa. They are both incredible stubborn and rather insensitive to the emotions they are stirring up in the other person. And once they start, there is little reasoning with them. They make my poor head hurt! Reason just doesn't seem to penetrate and there is nothing but hurt feelings and no one is ready to apologize to the other.

    So what I'm asking for is a little help and insight to help my mother and brother bridge this communication gap. God knows I have tried to step in before it gets too heated and reason with the both of them. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't.

    So: Is there a communication barrier between ISTP and ISTJ? And if so, what are your suggestions?

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sp/sx
    Posts
    1,636

    Default

    Not enough information as to what the central issue seems to be at the point where they are "butting heads." It may simply be that the relationship is in process of changing from one of parent to child, to one of a young adult needing space to discover who they are as an individual. Vs. who we were as part of the family of origin experience.

    My advice to you is to simply ignore it; or remove yourself and go do something if/when it becomes bothersome. You are not responsible for "their" relationship. You are only responsible for tending your own relation to your mother or brother as unique individuals.

  3. #3
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    5,537

    Default

    My mom is an ISTJ and while we are very close there are 2 main things that bugged the crap out of me while living together. She needs things to be perfect. The first time. Well, when you are learning you aren't going to be perfect. You will make mistakes. Hopefully learn from them. To an ISTP this is natural. I have felt that my mom "shuts me down" before I've taken off. I want to tell her to relax. They tend to over worry and micro-manage.

    Your brother should move out soon as possible or he has to tow her line to keep peace. ISTJ's can't be reasoned with concerning our logic. We spread out and can be imperfect (in their eyes but really we are building knowlege in an area that ISTJs might not be aware of) They freak out and interpret that as not being competent. It was very frustrating. Until the ISTP can get their own space they sort of have to grudgingly respect that ISTJ's space.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  4. #4
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ISFx
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    723

    Default

    It hurts to watch two people you love go at each other. But I agree with slippy, YOU stay out of it if only for your own peace of mind. It's their relationship to work out.

    I'm not sure why your twenty something brother is living at home but he needs to respect that he lives in his parent(s) house and all the rules that goes with it, ESPECIALLY if your parent(s) are paying for everything ie food, bills, etc. If he needs space, then he should considered moving out.

    EDIT: I didn't realize that your brother is going into his twenties until I re-read your post. But he still might have to consider moving out if he need his space.
    4w5

  5. #5
    Senior Member Habba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    ISTJ
    Enneagram
    1w9
    Posts
    998

    Default

    I don't really know many ISTPs, but I'd guess the factor here is J-parent vs. P-children.

    ISTJ, as a parent, probably wants to protect her child as much as possible. They'd want their children to study/work rigorously so that they'd have a stable future. It is in ISTJ nature to try and understand all the factors in play and try to minimize the risks and maximaze the results. This leads ISTJs to understand themselves and their part in social structures very well.

    For what I know, ISTPs usually go with the flow and have innate interesting in things around them. Rathering than building/defining their own environment, they test and adapt to foreign environments. They need to see their limits to better understand themselves. This is why they are often associated with extreme sports and exciting sensory experiences. ISTPs are probably the most common motorcyclist-type. This is also the "Trial-and-error" type of personality. Yes, they are going to fail and get hurt often, but that's how they learn the best.

    What I believe is the conflict here is the conflict of safe-keeping and trial-and-error views of life, which is only amplified by the mother-child relationship. ISTJ mother needs to better understand the need for independency of ISTP, where as the ISTP needs to better understand the worrying point of his mother.

    I had a strife with my ESTP friend, largely because I felt he was independable, reckless and insensitive. He was always fun to have a round, but I never could trust his word. I asked him not to lie on a simple matter, he said he was not lying and when I caught him lying, he just said it was just a funny joke. A simple matter really, but showed how I could not trust his word one bit. So now I've decided that I'll only see him for fun. I take my personal matters elsewhere.

    Then again, I have no idea what's going on.
    "The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine."
    -Nikola Tesla

  6. #6
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sp/sx
    Socionics
    ISTp
    Posts
    1,054

    Default

    I agree with the whole not getting involved in their dispute thing. I've done it, and I've regretted it. I've come to the conclusion that the most loving/helpful thing I can do for disputing family members is let them learn how to resolve it on their own. If I get dragged in, I'm taking that away from them. I'm not helping them, and I'm certainly not helping me. Your young brother will continue to struggle with disputes unless he's able to practice.

    Buuuut, since the point of your post wasn't to be told not to get involved, I'll humor it a bit.

    I've definitely had communication barriers with ISTJs in the past, even ones I like and respect. It's kind of funny to think about after the fact: we're both equally interested in getting on the same page but it's almost as if we speak different languages and have only a couple dozen words in common that we're able to use. I once had an ISTJ project manager I started to resent because of all of his hyper-worrying. It felt suffocating. It took me reaaallly trying to put myself in his shoes for me to do anything differently. He felt my work was directly correlated with how he was going to be judged (he was the type that always "joked" about being fired if he didn't do something 100%), and his not knowing all of the nitty-gritty details of what I was working on at all times stressed him the @#$% out. After I came to terms with that, I was a little more considerate. I still didn't think it was necessary, but I did it anyways. Granted... after a while of that, I kind of pushed for a different project manager, so I don't know how helpful that is

    But... if your brother comes for advice, maybe appeal to his Fe (in a nice, non-guilt tripping way). But, if my story is any example, even if your brother becomes more considerate of your mother, she'll need to come to terms with his independence too, otherwise he'll end up pushing back once again. I can only give advice on how to communicate to your ISTP though. Perhaps an ISTJ can chime in on how to give advice to her?
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  7. #7
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    8w7
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacKellar View Post
    All right, let me lay it out for you. My younger brother is an ISTP. He's really smart, technical, spends hours working on models of plastic cars and the like. He likes to walk on the wild side, and takes his time with tasks unless he feels the need to move faster. He'd also direct, tactless, and likes things to be expressed to him clearly the first time: No hidden double meanings and no mind reading.

    Our mother is an ISTJ. She's fairly reasonable, always supportive, usually very calm and good at creating order among chaos. She'll listen to other ideas and allow people to take over if they're better equipped for the situation. She likes things to be in a just so and for it to all work out right the first time.

    So this is where I need a little insight. My brother is budding into his twenties, and still has the teenager attitude of 'I know everything.' These two have been butting heads like crazy! My mother says something and it sets my brother off, or vice versa. They are both incredible stubborn and rather insensitive to the emotions they are stirring up in the other person. And once they start, there is little reasoning with them. They make my poor head hurt! Reason just doesn't seem to penetrate and there is nothing but hurt feelings and no one is ready to apologize to the other.

    So what I'm asking for is a little help and insight to help my mother and brother bridge this communication gap. God knows I have tried to step in before it gets too heated and reason with the both of them. Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't.

    So: Is there a communication barrier between ISTP and ISTJ? And if so, what are your suggestions?
    One of them speaks in objective logic (ISTJ), the other speaks in subjective logic (ISTP).

    He probably thinks he knows "everything" because he thinks on the fly. He doesn't need to know anything more than what he himself is compelled to learn. Statements like, "you're young and don't have experience" are often condescending and give no credit to his creative genius, and often assume the person should live life the same way an ISTJ should (recalling experience).

    Having lived with an ESTJ and INTJ parents, I'm totally on the ISTP's side.

    Is the ISTP doing drugs?
    Is he going to jail?
    Is his life a wreck?

    if no, then everyone should just leave ISTP the fuck alone.
    /projection

  8. #8
    The Iron Giant
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Not enough information as to what the central issue seems to be at the point where they are "butting heads." It may simply be that the relationship is in process of changing from one of parent to child, to one of a young adult needing space to discover who they are as an individual. Vs. who we were as part of the family of origin experience.

    My advice to you is to simply ignore it; or remove yourself and go do something if/when it becomes bothersome. You are not responsible for "their" relationship. You are only responsible for tending your own relation to your mother or brother as unique individuals.
    I couldn't have said it better myself.

  9. #9
    Junior Member MacKellar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    3
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    6

    Default

    Thank you for the replies.

    As more than one person mentioned ‘stay out of it’ I’ll reply to you all as one.

    My brother and mother have lived apart for a little over a year (I apologize for not mentioning this previously.) Their communication style has not improved much, except for maybe the fact it takes a bit longer for them to get fired up. I do not live with them, so what happens when I’m not around is not my concern.

    What is my concern is when it happens in my space. If we have to plan something, whatever that something is, their inability to communicate affects our ability accomplish things as a unit. Or, if they are in my home and have a break down in communication, they get loud (very loud) which distresses my child. Then it does become my concern. My point of posting is not so much ‘Hey can I fix these two people’ as it is more ‘how can I better help them when I’m involved in some way short of putting each of them in their own corner.’

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    My mom is an ISTJ and while we are very close there are 2 main things that bugged the crap out of me while living together. She needs things to be perfect. The first time. Well, when you are learning you aren't going to be perfect. You will make mistakes. Hopefully learn from them. To an ISTP this is natural. I have felt that my mom "shuts me down" before I've taken off. I want to tell her to relax. They tend to over worry and micro-manage.
    My mother is like this all the time, and my brother is very trial and error. So I can see where that’s an issue. Since a lot of their fights stem from accomplishing something, I suppose it escalating into a fight can only be expected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habba View Post
    I don't really know many ISTPs, but I'd guess the factor here is J-parent vs. P-children.

    ISTJ, as a parent, probably wants to protect her child as much as possible. They'd want their children to study/work rigorously so that they'd have a stable future. It is in ISTJ nature to try and understand all the factors in play and try to minimize the risks and maximize the results. This leads ISTJs to understand themselves and their part in social structures very well.

    For what I know, ISTPs usually go with the flow and have innate interesting in things around them. Rathering than building/defining their own environment, they test and adapt to foreign environments. They need to see their limits to better understand themselves. This is why they are often associated with extreme sports and exciting sensory experiences. ISTPs are probably the most common motorcyclist-type. This is also the "Trial-and-error" type of personality. Yes, they are going to fail and get hurt often, but that's how they learn the best.

    What I believe is the conflict here is the conflict of safe-keeping and trial-and-error views of life, which is only amplified by the mother-child relationship. ISTJ mother needs to better understand the need for independency of ISTP, where as the ISTP needs to better understand the worrying point of his mother.
    This makes a whole lot of sense to me. My mother has been very protective of all of us her entire life. She’s liked things to be just so, and has always wanted to keep us together and on the same page. I am four years older than my brother, and six than our sister, and my mother did everything she could to get us into activities so the three of us could be together (never mind I was usually way over the age limit and my brother was usually disinterested in the thing anyway.)

    My brother has always liked to do things in his own way, trial and error style. He never liked being lumped with me any more than I liked being lumped with him. My brother has many similarities to our father and my mother’s eldest brother, neither of whom have their lives together. (Our parents have been separated for almost two decades.) I suppose my mother wants to ensure my brother stays on a successful path, and since ‘mother knows best’ he must feel he can’t explore and learn as he needs.

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    One of them speaks in objective logic (ISTJ), the other speaks in subjective logic (ISTP).

    He probably thinks he knows "everything" because he thinks on the fly. He doesn't need to know anything more than what he himself is compelled to learn. Statements like, "you're young and don't have experience" are often condescending and give no credit to his creative genius, and often assume the person should live life the same way an ISTJ should (recalling experience).

    Having lived with an ESTJ and INTJ parents, I'm totally on the ISTP's side.

    Is the ISTP doing drugs?
    Is he going to jail?
    Is his life a wreck?

    if no, then everyone should just leave ISTP the fuck alone.
    /projection
    He’s getting his life together; I wouldn’t call it a wreck. A few misguided choices made here and there, but he’s 21. As mentioned, however, my mother sees similarities in him that are in older and successful ‘bums’ of the family. While he’s not in a bad place now, I can only guess she’s trying to protect him. My brother has always been rather scornful of that, now that I think about it. He's always been rather physically protective of our mother, me, and our younger sister. Not long ago, he walked three miles to a cousin's house with the intent of beating the crap out of said cousin for bad-mouthing our mother on FaceBook. (I caught wind of this intent and sent my husband to intervene before anything happened.)

    My brother and husband (ENTP) are really good friends. Perhaps the best solution is to have my husband sort out a plan with my brother, I sort it out with my mother, and then the two of us and iron out the details or where there are holes. Because, from what I’m getting, until my mother and brother realize what they are doing to each other, I can’t hope to have a calm conversation. Yes?

  10. #10
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    MBTI
    ESTP
    Enneagram
    8w7
    Posts
    2,319

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MacKellar View Post
    He’s getting his life together; I wouldn’t call it a wreck. A few misguided choices made here and there, but he’s 21. As mentioned, however, my mother sees similarities in him that are in older and successful ‘bums’ of the family. While he’s not in a bad place now, I can only guess she’s trying to protect him. My brother has always been rather scornful of that, now that I think about it. He's always been rather physically protective of our mother, me, and our younger sister. Not long ago, he walked three miles to a cousin's house with the intent of beating the crap out of said cousin for bad-mouthing our mother on FaceBook. (I caught wind of this intent and sent my husband to intervene before anything happened.)

    My brother and husband (ENTP) are really good friends. Perhaps the best solution is to have my husband sort out a plan with my brother, I sort it out with my mother, and then the two of us and iron out the details or where there are holes. Because, from what I’m getting, until my mother and brother realize what they are doing to each other, I can’t hope to have a calm conversation. Yes?
    How are we defining "bum"?

    We're talking about an ISTP here. Struggle is what STP's live for, and there's no struggle like living with torn jeans, a camo shirt and chopping wood for a living and living in a trailer.

    Shit, if I had the money, I'd buy land, live in a tent, and build a house from scratch just like minecraft.

    If I had passive income, I'd be a nomad with blonde dreads.

    my XXTJ parents always made it a point to assert their own values onto me. "You need a good job and you should wash your hair every day."

    Frankly I can live life however the hell I want to. Its actually a goal of mine to become a beach bum.

    STP's learn via trial and error. So I say, let the man try and err.

Similar Threads

  1. [ISTP] ISTPs- shared activities with romantic interests
    By Intricate Mystic in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 05-15-2010, 05:20 PM
  2. [MBTItm] Problems with ISTJ snide remarks
    By Immaculate Cloud in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 03-13-2009, 11:26 AM
  3. [ISTJ] Connecting/Bonding with ISTJs
    By PinkIceTD in forum The SJ Guardhouse (ESFJ, ISFJ, ESTJ, ISTJ)
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: 01-13-2009, 04:38 PM
  4. [MBTItm] INFP with ISTJ co-worker = PAIN
    By eternitybc in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 10-21-2008, 01:09 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO