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  1. #11
    Junior Member MacKellar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    How are we defining "bum"?

    We're talking about an ISTP here. Struggle is what STP's live for, and there's no struggle like living with torn jeans, a camo shirt and chopping wood for a living and living in a trailer.

    Shit, if I had the money, I'd buy land, live in a tent, and build a house from scratch just like minecraft.

    If I had passive income, I'd be a nomad with blonde dreads.

    my XXTJ parents always made it a point to assert their own values onto me. "You need a good job and you should wash your hair every day."

    Frankly I can live life however the hell I want to. Its actually a goal of mine to become a beach bum.

    STP's learn via trial and error. So I say, let the man try and err.
    Oh, no, I am not calling my brother a bum. Please don't get that.

    What I mean is he has traits that are similar to people in our family who are less than successful. The prefaced Uncle, my mother's eldest brother, is in his fifties and is still relying heavily upon his mother for financial and emotional support. He has had many life struggles and his solution has never been to learn from them. He falls back to his mother, or has to be bailed out by other family members.

    Our father has never held a job longer than five years, save his service to the marine corp. He is very rpoud of his service, and has every right to be, but I have never really seen much of a 'marine' in him growing up. Our father let our mother support the family, he did what he wanted, and when he was holding a job would complain that we didn't appreciate his 'sacrifice' enough. (The sacrifice being that he was working.) He now lives in a small apartment and draws government help and complains about it.

    The traits my brother shares with these two men are not related to work ethic. My brother is a hard worker. He has strong principles. He desires to be more. He shares similar opinions as they do, which have little bearing on anything I think. The main thing is my father is very big into sports, especially NASCAR, and knows everything there is to know about it. My uncle knows everything about Star Wars and Godzilla. My uncle did not go to college or vocational school; my Dad attended but did not complete (he went to Vietnam.) The mistakes these men have made they do not seem to have learned much from them. There is always someone else to blame.

    My brother knows a whole lot about seemingly useless things (Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo) and has no desire to attend any sort of higher education beyond highschool. Which, to me, is fine. He'll go to school when, and if, he's ready. My mother has always encouraged education, though. School has always been stressed; learning (book learning) has always been stressed. My brother also spends a lot of time playing video games. He takes his XBox almost everywhere with expectation that he will be able to use it.

    That, I think, is what may be triggering my mother to fear he may not get very far. I can see the similarities between my brother and these people, but I can see how he isn't going in their direction. He's just, as you've said, trying and erring. Just not the way she wants him to. I suppose while my brother may be living for the struggle, she wants him to not have to?

    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    Frankly I can live life however the hell I want to. Its actually a goal of mine to become a beach bum.
    That sounds exactly like him, lol.

  2. #12
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    You could talk to each of them separately concerning the fights in your household and how that affects your kid. Ask them each how it gets to that point and what each could do to keep escalation in check. I would let each know that you are going to speak with the other in the same manner.

    Maybe if they knew they were causing a problem for you they could curb that behavior. Hopefully, while doing so they could gain some insight about how the other prefers to be treated.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  3. #13
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I sympathasize with the desire to reduce the conflict around you not so much because you're trying to fix their problems but because the exposure to their warring is exhausting and disruptive. I've found you end up getting dragged into these things if you're not careful.

    I think MDP is on point above but I'd point out a potential pitfall: this could (may) be used as ammunition, one side against the other. "Look how you're effecting MacKellar, that's so like you to bring up this conflict and not take others into consideration." And then begins passive-agressiveness and posturing as people play the start an argument and then cut them off "to keep the peace" game.

    Ideally, you can make sure that you're not a "prize" for either of them to win.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  4. #14
    Junior Member MacKellar's Avatar
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    I can certainly give it a try. I know my husband will back me up and support that. I understand what you are saying, though Bamboo. I'm sure I can figure out a way to do it so it might not give more fuel to the fire.

    I just wish they could stand back, shut up, and find middle ground. Wishful thinking I suppose until they figure it out on their own.

  5. #15
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    There doesn't have to be communication barrier between those types. I'm sort of an ISTJ, though my tendencies aren't very strong. (I can be rather extraverted at times, I like to consider my feelings, I can be a lazy bum sometimes, etc.) I work with an ISTP. He's a great guy. If I had to live with him, I'd probably be irritated though, because I know he hates working and only works because his mother asks him to. He's good at serving customers, but if you talk to him, you'll know that he actually "hates" them all because he doesn't like talking to people and doesn't like that he has to go make their stuff. When he goes home, he sleeps (like I force myself not to do) or plays video games instead of learning anything useful.

    Like I said, he's a fun coworker and I'm sure he'd be a good friend, but if I were a parent I would be disappointed that he wasn't trying to live up to his full potential. I would be disappointed if I knew my child weren't trying to do their best and fulfill important goals. And keep in mind that I only have a 55-60% leaning towards ISTJ and your mom... if she's anything like mine...... probably has a 90% leaning. It's hard not to get offended when an ISTJ mom starts telling you how to live, but he's got to remember that she's trying to help the best way she know how, just like she has to remember that he has the right to make his own mistakes or create his own success. ISTJ moms are difficult to handle (I hated mine for years). They devote themselves to making sure that their children are well-raised and are going to have a good education, good work, and enough money in the future. They want stable lives for their children, even if their children don't like stability and certainly aren't interested in working for it.

    What they may really need is time. I stopped living with my mother in high school. It actually turned out to be the best choice I ever made and it lead to better choices in the future. However, I've always been very down-to-earth and logical about my choices, so my decision was one that took my safety, everyone else's, and my ability to support myself into account, and I knew that I could go back if anything happened. Some people make decisions like that in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. Your brother probably knows what he's doing and I think moving away from her will make his life easier, even if she's more worried about him. After you stop living with your parents, it gets easier to understand them and, believe it or not, easier to love them because they aren't dictating the way you live anymore. But he'll need a lot of time - maybe years - before that becomes the case, and she'll need to lay off him for a longer period of time than it sounds like she has been. The things that would always make me angry is when my parents tried to tell me what choices to make. I think your mom just needs to back off for awhile. Be there as a silent support until he comes up against something that he wants help on. He may be stubborn but he doesn't sound like an idiot; if he needs to know something, he'll come ask her. But only if she lets him make his own choices and doesn't force her way down his throat. This will probably be hard for her, but she needs to realize that she can do more good if she supports his decisions than if she tells him how to do everything. Tell her that next time there together, but don't wait until they're already angry or they won't be able to see your point objectively. Start off by making it clear that your not telling them what to do, your just telling them how to treat each other when they're in your domain. Make it equally clear that neither of them are at fault and both of them could do better. Then just try to help your mom loosen her grip a little. She's probably stubborn as heck, so if he sees her actually try to let him do his thing a bit, that might make him happier.

    I don't know if that will help you out any, but it's an idea to add to all the others you've received. Hopefully it will be able to help you in some way.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    My mom is an ISTJ and while we are very close there are 2 main things that bugged the crap out of me while living together. She needs things to be perfect. The first time. Well, when you are learning you aren't going to be perfect. You will make mistakes. Hopefully learn from them. To an ISTP this is natural. I have felt that my mom "shuts me down" before I've taken off. I want to tell her to relax. They tend to over worry and micro-manage.

    Your brother should move out soon as possible or he has to tow her line to keep peace. ISTJ's can't be reasoned with concerning our logic. We spread out and can be imperfect (in their eyes but really we are building knowlege in an area that ISTJs might not be aware of) They freak out and interpret that as not being competent. It was very frustrating. Until the ISTP can get their own space they sort of have to grudgingly respect that ISTJ's space.
    This seems to sum it up pretty good. Distance and space works best. I don't general get into it with ISTJ, but I don't generally become best buds either. Best case for me is 2 people who go about things different, but learn to respect each other where respect is due. I can see closeness causing issues. I am to much of a free will and carefree for ISTJ...hell...most ITJs for that matter. I do get along better with INTJs, but still more free will then they like as well.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihon View Post
    There doesn't have to be communication barrier between those types. I'm sort of an ISTJ, though my tendencies aren't very strong. (I can be rather extraverted at times, I like to consider my feelings, I can be a lazy bum sometimes, etc.) I work with an ISTP. He's a great guy. If I had to live with him, I'd probably be irritated though, because I know he hates working and only works because his mother asks him to. He's good at serving customers, but if you talk to him, you'll know that he actually "hates" them all because he doesn't like talking to people and doesn't like that he has to go make their stuff. When he goes home, he sleeps (like I force myself not to do) or plays video games instead of learning anything useful.

    Like I said, he's a fun coworker and I'm sure he'd be a good friend, but if I were a parent I would be disappointed that he wasn't trying to live up to his full potential. I would be disappointed if I knew my child weren't trying to do their best and fulfill important goals. And keep in mind that I only have a 55-60% leaning towards ISTJ and your mom... if she's anything like mine...... probably has a 90% leaning. It's hard not to get offended when an ISTJ mom starts telling you how to live, but he's got to remember that she's trying to help the best way she know how, just like she has to remember that he has the right to make his own mistakes or create his own success. ISTJ moms are difficult to handle (I hated mine for years). They devote themselves to making sure that their children are well-raised and are going to have a good education, good work, and enough money in the future. They want stable lives for their children, even if their children don't like stability and certainly aren't interested in working for it.

    What they may really need is time. I stopped living with my mother in high school. It actually turned out to be the best choice I ever made and it lead to better choices in the future. However, I've always been very down-to-earth and logical about my choices, so my decision was one that took my safety, everyone else's, and my ability to support myself into account, and I knew that I could go back if anything happened. Some people make decisions like that in the wrong way, for the wrong reasons. Your brother probably knows what he's doing and I think moving away from her will make his life easier, even if she's more worried about him. After you stop living with your parents, it gets easier to understand them and, believe it or not, easier to love them because they aren't dictating the way you live anymore. But he'll need a lot of time - maybe years - before that becomes the case, and she'll need to lay off him for a longer period of time than it sounds like she has been. The things that would always make me angry is when my parents tried to tell me what choices to make. I think your mom just needs to back off for awhile. Be there as a silent support until he comes up against something that he wants help on. He may be stubborn but he doesn't sound like an idiot; if he needs to know something, he'll come ask her. But only if she lets him make his own choices and doesn't force her way down his throat. This will probably be hard for her, but she needs to realize that she can do more good if she supports his decisions than if she tells him how to do everything. Tell her that next time there together, but don't wait until they're already angry or they won't be able to see your point objectively. Start off by making it clear that your not telling them what to do, your just telling them how to treat each other when they're in your domain. Make it equally clear that neither of them are at fault and both of them could do better. Then just try to help your mom loosen her grip a little. She's probably stubborn as heck, so if he sees her actually try to let him do his thing a bit, that might make him happier.

    I don't know if that will help you out any, but it's an idea to add to all the others you've received. Hopefully it will be able to help you in some way.
    I am nothing like what u explained. I am a doer for one and will do things..even chores...do to boredom. I do things for people because I am far from lazy and it gives me something to do. I have always been very active. The reason in am where I am today is be cause of not wanting to be bored And my desire to learn everything.
    Im out, its been fun

  8. #18
    Senior Member ColonelGadaafi's Avatar
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    They just need to learn to listen to each other and be less stubborn. That's all. It's got nothing to do with Personality.
    "Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations."

  9. #19
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    truth is with any relationship.....fight... Is that one has to back down and if your brothers an ISTP then your mother will need to be the one! ISTP's are simply fueled by recourse. If she responds in anger then he'll take it to the next level and if she takes to the next level then he'll take it even further! But if she backs down immediately then you brother will forget in a short period of time (10min-24hrs) and not even go their after that

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