[MBTI General] Why is ISTP like NT?

[Jeffster]

D'oh. I forgot the link.
Tertiary Temptation

But yeah, youth may be a part of it. But I think extreme stress at any age can cause it to occur.

Yeah, I've read that before. I don't agree with it. I don't really believe in "tertiary functions." It seems to me part of an attempt to force all behavior into a strict function model. It just doesn't match reality in most cases. For instance, I have never met an SJ that truly favors "Fi" over "Fe." STJs are just as likely as SFJs to favor conformist "go with the group" policies for everything.

But that's getting way off topic for this particular thread so maybe I'll start a new one...someday.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Bruce Lee was a lot like an NT because on the INTJ forum some people there even said they thought he was INTJ though in actuality he is ISTP 8w7 so/sx.

 

[jixmixfix]

I'm starting to think Bruce Lee was an ISFP but who knows really. Def an ISXP.

 

[RaptorWizard]

I was just conducting a poll and, apparently, people can get ISTP mixed up, rather easily too, with ENTP as well as INTP!

Does anyone care to explain to me the similarities leading to this drastic confusion?

My only guess, as of right now, would be that all 3 are pretty logical, as well as all 3 of them being into problem solving, even if the nature of the problems they solve differ from type to type, whether it is the active challenge of the ISTP, the analytical challenge of the INTP, or the creative challenge of the ENTP.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

ENTP confused with ISTP...I have a hard time believing this as ENTP's in my life seem vastly different than me. Underneath, we may have similar curiosities and our viewpoints may be similar but that isnt necessarily type related, more superficial or moral grounds. I simply cannot talk, move, think *that* fast and jump around various subjects in the span of seconds. I mean, I just don't talk that much. Lol. I have a more step by step approach to problem solving - I'm dealing with one thing at a time, even if I'm aware of other issues. ENTPs gather everything up and try to juggle. They manage tho. Very different approaches.

 

[WALMART]

I've been strong-armed, by the deceivingly violent Steph, into rewriting my previous post in layman's terms.

Why do some people overuse their tertiary function? And why can loops/traps occur?
My first thought is, why do we interact at all? In general, we interact with each other to receive a desired response. I think that there are many types of responses. Desirable responses are preconceived, and there is a range of acceptable and unacceptable responses. For instance, if you tell someone you are sad, possible positive responses are empathy, advice, or a compliment. Possible negative responses are teasing, changing the subject, or an insult. Interactions are transactional like that.

If someone says something that came from using their top two functions and receives negative feedback, they may try using their first and third function. If their first and third functions produce positive responses, they may keep using it. The substitution happens naturally. Therefore you may think it is normal and arent aware you are even doing it. Prolonged exposure to this situation may even convince you that using your first and third functions is right and using your second function is wrong. So there is your loop.

Imagine my situation for a moment. A little Ti/Ne kid may make the observation that a baseball and basketball dropped at the same time from the same height hit the ground at the same time. After a few more observations the kid forms a theory and is very happy with himself. He shares this thought with an adult and is expecting praise for his creative endeavors and reciprocated curiosity, but the all-knowing adult already knows about gravity. The all-knowing adult may even try to show their superiority by regurgitating the genius of someone else and demeaning your innovated thought . And all the other little kids don't care to know about gravity until the all-knowing adult gives them a grade for it. (if someone says newton was an intj...... i will stick steph on you. newton is an intp to the max.)

In school they teach you 1+1=2. A Ti/Ne kid would think, "wtf are these shapes and why do they follow that pattern? ". All the other kids got it so the Ti/Ne kid must be stupid. The switch to Ti/Si just memorizes the pattern and moves on.... So on and so forth until something different happens. How long could that take?

That was a simplistic example, but do you see how Ti/Ne can get suppressed and Ti/Si get acceptable results? Other types may have similar responses instead of opposite ones, or even suppressed tertiary functions. Therefore not everyone will experience this, and other people may have a supportive person in their lives.

An Se/Ni kid sees the equation, derives meaning, falls asleep and waits for the test

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

An ISTP won't accidentally go out with their fly open or a sock stuck to their head. This is the best way to differentiate them from INTP.

N vs S should not be defined by "presence/abscence of dom/aux Ne/Ni". Ne/Ni are too subjective and hard to define. It should be defined by "presence/abscence of dom/aux Se/Si". Everyone can tell when the sensing functions are underdeveloped

 

[Randomnity]

An ISTP won't accidentally go out with their fly open or a sock stuck to their head. This is the best way to differentiate them from INTP.

This is absolutely 100% incorrect.

Source: 26 years as an ISTP.

(ok, I haven't gone out with a sock on my head but mostly because how would that happen in the first place?? socks aren't sticky, or they shouldn't be... )

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

This is absolutely 100% incorrect.

Source: 26 years as an ISTP.

(ok, I haven't gone out with a sock on my head but mostly because how would that happen in the first place?? socks aren't sticky, or they shouldn't be... )

Socks aren't sticky (on the outside anyway)...but your head could be!

Anyway:so you're an ISTP with bad Se? How does that work?

Or do you just mean you did it occasionally on a "bad day"...?

Because my point is, the NT lack of sync with their physical environment is very notable. Not that no ISTP could EVER have an Sensing fail. Obviously I was exaggerating for effect.

 

[Jaguar]

When does an ISTP look like an INTP or INTJ?

Of all the Improviserâ„¢ types, ISTPs most look like and most often identify with the Theoristâ„¢ temperament, often reporting preferences for INTP or for INTJ on assessments.

Full article here:
http://bestfittype.com/16Types/ISTP-INTP-INTJ.cfm

 

[IZthe411]

How silly.

If you are sitting around, bored, and feel like doing something, and ask an INTP, I bet his answer nine times out of ten (after hemming and hawing) will be, "Uh... gee, I dunno... what do YOU want to do?"

.

YES

My INTP friend is like this- it drives me NUTS.
And whatever you suggest- it's like "Okay".
My hope is my initial suggestion will start some Ne based pings of ideas or suggestions. But it stops there.

I hate when I'm the most extraverted introvert in a group.

 

[Randomnity]

Socks aren't sticky (on the outside anyway)...but your head could be!

Anyway:so you're an ISTP with bad Se? How does that work?

Or do you just mean you did it occasionally on a "bad day"...?

Because my point is, the NT lack of sync with their physical environment is very notable. Not that no ISTP could EVER have an Sensing fail. Obviously I was exaggerating for effect.

I'm FAR more absent-minded than the average population, and get grief about it constantly from both natural consequences and friends who don't understand how it's possible for things to drop out of my mind so easily. It's part of why I thought I was INTP for a few years, but I definitely am not. I'm also pretty damn uncoordinated despite playing sports. Some of my N friends are much more talented than I am.

Se is only an aux function for an ISTP. I'm far more likely to be lost in my head (Ti) or distracted by some cool shiny thing (Se) than I am to be looking at my boring fly or dirty dishes or keys.

And of course, preference =/= ability, and MBTI is all about preferences. While there are often correlation, I think it can be misleading to suggest that there are huge differences in ability.

 

[jixmixfix]

Well if you look at mbti theory both ti and ni are pretty heavy introverted functions this could give some light as to why istps appear NT. Istps are intereted in "feel good" sensations and expeirences. They want to aquire knowledge through expeirences. They are interested in aethetics and sensations and want to be apart and experiance the sensation. Intps arent so interested in new sensations they are happy leaving that part out of their lives. They would much rather gather knowledge through passive means.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

I'm FAR more absent-minded than the average population, and get grief about it constantly from both natural consequences and friends who don't understand how it's possible for things to drop out of my mind so easily. It's part of why I thought I was INTP for a few years, but I definitely am not. I'm also pretty damn uncoordinated despite playing sports. Some of my N friends are much more talented than I am.

Se is only an aux function for an ISTP. I'm far more likely to be lost in my head (Ti) or distracted by some cool shiny thing (Se) than I am to be looking at my boring fly or dirty dishes or keys.

And of course, preference =/= ability, and MBTI is all about preferences. While there are often correlation, I think it can be misleading to suggest that there are huge differences in ability.

My dad and ex GF of 3 years, are ISFP. They never miss a detail or go out of the house looking less than 100% in-line with their intended look. They notice an aesthetic malfunction instantly. They re not ESFP, they are not always chasing physical experiences, but they can effortlessly sync with the physical environment, and have no co-ordination problems (he is good at sports, here music).

We all have our own understanding of MBTI. I think it is absolutely about ability. I never chose Ti or Ne. They are not my preference. My life would be easier if I had other abiltiies. But I am naturally good at, what I am naturally good at. And I am less good at other functions even if I try to be good at them, the best I can reach is "average"

Back to my original point: I think N vs S should be judged on presence of S, not N, because N is subjective while S is objective. If I give an idea that x person hates, they will say "His N is way-off, he's an S". But so what? N just means I think in an abstract way, not that I reach the "correct" understanding. An N can be absolute idiot. It juat means they are primarily abstract.

S on the other hand is objective. either you can recall the correct facts (Si), or not. Either you can perform physical tasks skillfully (Se), or you can't. It's much harder to get confused if typing on that basis.

IMHO

 

[Randomnity]

My dad and ex GF of 3 years, are ISFP. They never miss a detail or go out of the house looking less than 100% in-line with their intended look. They notice an aesthetic malfunction instantly. They re not ESFP, they are not always chasing physical experiences, but they can effortlessly sync with the physical environment, and have no co-ordination problems (he is good at sports, here music).

We all have our own understanding of MBTI. I think it is absolutely about ability. I never chose Ti or Ne. They are not my preference. My life would be easier if I had other abiltiies. But I am naturally good at, what I am naturally good at. And I am less good at other functions even if I try to be good at them, the best I can reach is "average"

Back to my original point: I think N vs S should be judged on presence of S, not N, because N is subjective while S is objective. If I give an idea that x person hates, they will say "His N is way-off, he's an S". But so what? N just means I think in an abstract way, not that I reach the "correct" understanding. An N can be absolute idiot. It juat means they are primarily abstract.

S on the other hand is objective. either you can recall the correct facts (Si), or not. Either you can perform physical tasks skillfully (Se), or you can't. It's much harder to get confused if typing on that basis.

IMHO

Oh, ok, if you're defining MBTI as ability than of course you will be typing people according to their ability and will see that e.g. ISFPs are good at Se, by your own criteria.

I say that MBTI is preference because that is generally what the questions are about - do you like to do this, do you tend to see the world like that, etc. Functions are the same - do you take in information mostly through Ne or Se, do you process mostly by Ti or Fi, etc. Not really any mention of ability in the theory as far as I know - that bit seems to be added on afterwards.

While I enjoy Se-based things and believe that I take in information in a more Se- than Ne-based way, by any objective scale I'm better at Ne than Se. I'm great at recognizing patterns and abstract thinking, as long as it isn't too distant from reality. I'm clumsy, absent-minded, and uncoordinated. I firmly believe that I'm not INTP, though. INTJ describes me better, but not quite as well as ISTP. I'm just more of a Ti-focused one than a Se-focused one.

If you want more examples, my ISFP ex-bf, while very coordinated, could be spacey about some things and definitely did not have a polished or planned appearance - I don't think he cared at all. My INFP mom is very absent-minded (it runs in our family) and disorganized, but is very talented at realistic art and music, what you might call Se traits. My INTJ ex got worse grades in shared university science classes than I did despite studying harder. All three types are based on them taking the test and agreeing with online descriptions, so although they might not be perfectly accurate (I think they are all correct typings), they are probably close.

IMO both the theory and my own experience indicate the MBTI is best described as a system of preferences, so that is what I call it.

 

[Il Morto Che Parla]

IMO both the theory and my own experience indicate the MBTI is best described as a system of preferences, so that is what I call it.

They also talk a hell of a lot about "developed" and "underdeveloped" functions. Any standard MBTI text says that your primary is your most developed, aux is your second most developed, inferior is your least developed, etc. what does that mean in every day language other than "ability".

Also, I don't "prefer" Ti or Ne. I think they mean "preference" is in "what you subconsciously do" rather than conscious "choice". I would maybe prefer to be another type. But I couldn't carry it off.

 

[Randomnity]

They also talk a hell of a lot about "developed" and "underdeveloped" functions. Any standard MBTI text says that your primary is your most developed, aux is your second most developed, inferior is your least developed, etc. what does that mean in every day language other than "ability".

I think it is more along the lines of which one you're most familiar with using.

Also, I don't "prefer" Ti or Ne. I think they mean "preference" is in "what you subconsciously do" rather than conscious "choice". I would maybe prefer to be another type. But I couldn't carry it off.

Agreed, another word would be better. Perhaps "thinking styles".

 

[The Great One]

Of all of the sensing types ISTP seems to be by far the weirdest. First of all look at that type's functions TiSeNiFe. Hold up, Ti and Ni? Those are the 2 most insane functions in all of MBTI! Anyone with both of those combined will have a setup for total madness. Surely then ISTP could far more easily be confused for an N type than of the other Ss. Also ISTP is the 2nd most logical of all the types behind only INTP! ISTPs as well seem to be very poor socially like lots of INT types are while all of the other SPs are super cool popular people. I could easily be an ISTP too! Lots of people say I am in a TiNi loop! ISTPs are always studying and observing the world, endlessly thinking, observing, gethering information and theorizing about the real nature of the Universe.

The reason that I don't think that you're an ISTP is that your theories are way to whack and out of touch with reality. Most ISTP's can look pretty NTish, but they usually have a very good connection with reality: you on the other hand...don't.

 

[skylights]

I have an ISTP brother who mom calls INTP dad's "Mini Me".

To answer the thread title question, I think that ISTP is like NT because of the T "purity" of Ti. In terms of functions, I see the introverted process as more "pure" because it is generally more concerned with internal coherency - Fi and Ti both being idealistic in that they seek to provide an all-encompassing rational framework, rather that Fe and Te's externally-adaptive "ad hoc" reasoning. This tendency makes the introverted processes inherently more abstract, which is the realm of N - ISFP therefore being the most "NF" of the SPs and ISTP being the most "NT" of the SPs. In the specific case of ISTP, since Ti doms prefer coherent logic to all other thought processes, ISTPs, just like NTs, can be more interested in the precise reasoning involved in a situation than in its realistic parameters. That, in combination with tertiary Ni, makes ISTP lean close to the usual NT worldview of abstract logical assessment.

In reality I think this comes across as ISTPs being logical, interested in breaking things down and figuring them out, interested in improving things, good problem solvers, experimental, independent, innovative, self-assured, competent, and thick-skinned - all pretty NT traits. I think the biggest difference I see between my INTP dad and ISTP brother is that dad's interest in the theoretical is steady and native, backed up by excellent factual recall, while my brother has a knack for quick abstract understanding but prefers to work with the tangible. They're both really into science and music.

 

[Lightyear]

Of all of the sensing types ISTP seems to be by far the weirdest. First of all look at that type's functions TiSeNiFe. Hold up, Ti and Ni? Those are the 2 most insane functions in all of MBTI! Anyone with both of those combined will have a setup for total madness. Surely then ISTP could far more easily be confused for an N type than of the other Ss. Also ISTP is the 2nd most logical of all the types behind only INTP! ISTPs as well seem to be very poor socially like lots of INT types are while all of the other SPs are super cool popular people. I could easily be an ISTP too! Lots of people say I am in a TiNi loop! ISTPs are always studying and observing the world, endlessly thinking, observing, gethering information and theorizing about the real nature of the Universe.

Kinda gatecrashing this thread but am just wondering out of interest, how would the Ni_Ti play out in an INFJ? Why do you think this function combination is a set-up for madness? What does it do? Do we need the other functions to balance it out? (in the case of an INFJ Fe and Se)