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[MBTI General] Why is ISTP like NT?

pv255

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Of all of the sensing types ISTP seems to be by far the weirdest. First of all look at that type's functions TiSeNiFe. Hold up, Ti and Ni? Those are the 2 most insane functions in all of MBTI! Anyone with both of those combined will have a setup for total madness. Surely then ISTP could far more easily be confused for an N type than of the other Ss. Also ISTP is the 2nd most logical of all the types behind only INTP! ISTPs as well seem to be very poor socially like lots of INT types are while all of the other SPs are super cool popular people. I could easily be an ISTP too! Lots of people say I am in a TiNi loop! ISTPs are always studying and observing the world, endlessly thinking, observing, gethering information and theorizing about the real nature of the Universe.

I see where you're coming from. The outward appearance of ISTPs and NT temperaments can be similar, but there are distinguishable differences.
 

pv255

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I meant the variations are so many AND these functions are experienced by each individual in a subjective way (not proper term, imagine it) that trying to break it down would be like: the whole -> sum of the parts ->analyze parts
I can't do that cause it feels like missing many points in the step of sum of the parts -> whole.

You are spot on with that thought. Classifying and counting outward manifestations is a practical compromise to identifying personalities types. However it is only accurate over a very large sample size and is not really a scalable solution. I have an alternate method of identifying types and predicting behaviors. It requires more information and analysis, but i think it works on an individual basis.
 

Jeffster

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Speculating beyond the first two functions just becomes pure guesswork. I don't believe Sensors would ever PREFER to use intuition, or they aren't Sensors in the first place. Thus, I don't really buy this "Ti-Ni loop" stuff. Unless that's just another way of saying debilitating paranoia. But even then, I doubt it's as common as it's made out to be on here.
 

pv255

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Speculating beyond the first two functions just becomes pure guesswork. I don't believe Sensors would ever PREFER to use intuition, or they aren't Sensors in the first place. Thus, I don't really buy this "Ti-Ni loop" stuff. Unless that's just another way of saying debilitating paranoia. But even then, I doubt it's as common as it's made out to be on here.
I havent observed and ISTPs in a long term Ti/Ni loop, but I do know loops like that can happen. Reflecting on my undergrad days, I was totally stuck in an Ti/Si loop, not out of choice, more out of ignorance and social pressure.
 

Jeffster

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I havent observed and ISTPs in a long term Ti/Ni loop, but I do know loops like that can happen. Reflecting on my undergrad days, I was totally stuck in an Ti/Si loop, not out of choice, more out of ignorance and social pressure.

What does that actually mean though? What did ignorance and social pressure cause you to do?
 

StephMC

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What does that actually mean though? What did ignorance and social pressure cause you to do?

Here's a good resource for examples of different loops, Jeffster :)
 

Randomnity

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Speculating beyond the first two functions just becomes pure guesswork. I don't believe Sensors would ever PREFER to use intuition, or they aren't Sensors in the first place. Thus, I don't really buy this "Ti-Ni loop" stuff. Unless that's just another way of saying debilitating paranoia. But even then, I doubt it's as common as it's made out to be on here.

I don't buy the Ti-Ni loop crap either (at least not as a common thing), but I do use Ni fairly often, at least as I understand the term. I use it to connect the dots that Se gives me. Then I can analyze the pattern with Ti. I think sensors can and do use intuition all the time, just as intuitives can and do use sensing. It's just that the Ne/Ni data isn't trusted/relied on as much as Se/Si data.
 

pv255

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What does that actually mean though? What did ignorance and social pressure cause you to do?
So a Ti/Si loop for me actually looked a lot like Te/Ni or Ni/Te. I was 18 years old and had no idea who I was or anything about thought processes or perception differences. All I knew was everyone around me was going to college, everyone told me to go to college, and I wasnt even aware of other options. I truly believed college, job, corporate ladder, etc. was the definition of success and the goals of all people. I studied like this too, memorize meaningless patterns, never caring to recognize what the numbers of my calculations mean, and lots of things like that. I made good grades and was really judgmental. I dabbled into Ti/Ne thoughts, but every time I expressed those thoughts I was ridiculed. Socially I was real quite... That make sense?
 

Jeffster

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So a Ti/Si loop for me actually looked a lot like Te/Ni or Ni/Te. I was 18 years old and had no idea who I was or anything about thought processes or perception differences. All I knew was everyone around me was going to college, everyone told me to go to college, and I wasnt even aware of other options. I truly believed college, job, corporate ladder, etc. was the definition of success and the goals of all people. I studied like this too, memorize meaningless patterns, never caring to recognize what the numbers of my calculations mean, and lots of things like that. I made good grades and was really judgmental. I dabbled into Ti/Ne thoughts, but every time I expressed those thoughts I was ridiculed. Socially I was real quite... That make sense?

It makes sense, but I wouldn't call it any kind of loop. It sounds like just what you said at the beginning about not knowing yourself yet. So, I don't like using function terminology and calling it a loop like it was some sort of trap or debilitating condition, when the only condition you really had was....youth.
 

pv255

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It makes sense, but I wouldn't call it any kind of loop. It sounds like just what you said at the beginning about not knowing yourself yet. So, I don't like using function terminology and calling it a loop like it was some sort of trap or debilitating condition, when the only condition you really had was....youth.

ummm... do all young people experience this? i dont think so. therefore my condition cannot be classified as young.
it was a loop. i used Ti with data sourced solely from Si. And honestly, I was/am trapped. My environmental pressures disregard Ne based conclusions. I question if I would ever build the confidence level to break free if I wasn't high successful using Ti/Si and highly mobile due to monetary accomplishments.
 

pv255

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It makes sense, but I wouldn't call it any kind of loop. It sounds like just what you said at the beginning about not knowing yourself yet. So, I don't like using function terminology and calling it a loop like it was some sort of trap or debilitating condition, when the only condition you really had was....youth.

Try to empathize. I have a preference. I neglected my preferences for the majority of my life thus far, because I received negative responses when sharing my highly valued thoughts. If using functions that are lower in your hierarchy takes extra energy, under indulging in your more favorable functions aggravates your psyche, and your energy level and general sentiment effects your ability to achieve, I must either have a huge pool of energy to draw from and robust psyche, or I've exhausted myself and distressed my psyche beyond normal tolerance levels. I have been judged above average at a game I am handicapped in.

Anyways, I am not looking for a pity party, but denying the existence of a miserable situation is just arrogant and short sighted. Give it the benefit of doubt. :shrug:
 

Jeffster

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ummm... do all young people experience this? i dont think so. therefore my condition cannot be classified as young.
it was a loop. i used Ti with data sourced solely from Si. And honestly, I was/am trapped. My environmental pressures disregard Ne based conclusions. I question if I would ever build the confidence level to break free if I wasn't high successful using Ti/Si and highly mobile due to monetary accomplishments.

Try to empathize. I have a preference. I neglected my preferences for the majority of my life thus far, because I received negative responses when sharing my highly valued thoughts. If using functions that are lower in your hierarchy takes extra energy, under indulging in your more favorable functions aggravates your psyche, and your energy level and general sentiment effects your ability to achieve, I must either have a huge pool of energy to draw from and robust psyche, or I've exhausted myself and distressed my psyche beyond normal tolerance levels. I have been judged above average at a game I am handicapped in.

Anyways, I am not looking for a pity party, but denying the existence of a miserable situation is just arrogant and short sighted. Give it the benefit of doubt. :shrug:

Forgive me if it seemed I was trying to downgrade your experiences. Maybe not all young people experience what you described, but yes, a TON of people do. It sounds extremely common to focus on what family or other people tell you is what you should pursue, and college and the "corporate ladder" are very common things for people to hold up with that kind of importance. If there's more to the story that you didn't include, that could be different, but everything you described sounds very normal and not like any kind of mental abnormality.

You speak of exhaustion, but I think the focus you place on defining everything by theoretical functions is exhausting in itself. But if that is therapeutic for you, I'm not trying to denigrate something that helps you. It wouldn't help me, and the concept of being a slave to theoretical "loops" is not something I would ever turn myself over to, that would be far more miserable to me than a life of social pressures.
 

pv255

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Forgive me if it seemed I was trying to downgrade your experiences. Maybe not all young people experience what you described, but yes, a TON of people do. It sounds extremely common to focus on what family or other people tell you is what you should pursue, and college and the "corporate ladder" are very common things for people to hold up with that kind of importance. If there's more to the story that you didn't include, that could be different, but everything you described sounds very normal and not like any kind of mental abnormality.

You speak of exhaustion, but I think the focus you place on defining everything by theoretical functions is exhausting in itself. But if that is therapeutic for you, I'm not trying to denigrate something that helps you. It wouldn't help me, and the concept of being a slave to theoretical "loops" is not something I would ever turn myself over to, that would be far more miserable to me than a life of social pressures.

:cheese:
 

pv255

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D'oh. I forgot the link. :doh:
Tertiary Temptation

But yeah, youth may be a part of it. But I think extreme stress at any age can cause it to occur.

Reading that site made me think about why tertiary functions are used as a long term defense method. Preferred functions probably also describe the value you place on products of a function. In an economy (or any transactional interaction) you are always trying to give something you value less in exchange for something you value more..... So, yeah... nm... (feeling of overwhelming exhaustion) ... I'm just gonna drink this beer.... let me know if you want me to keep going.
 

pv255

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:cheers:
now that I am nice and toasty, I'll finish my thought. I was talking about transactional interactions, which is every interaction to a certain degree. In certain situations for certain people, your tertiary function combined with you dominant function maybe more rewarding than freely expressing yourself. Ti/Si, in my opinion, has a substantial subjective and objective value (more so objective, but in general has a very positive connotation). Therefore, I just ran with it. It worked, and I thought it was right.

My point is about Jeffster comment, which I greatly appreciate. Fi/Ni may have equivalent value in your environment, feeling is less abrasive than thinking in general, as your more natural Fi/Se. Therefore the sacrifice to your tertiary function didn't make transaction sense..... that's all.
 

StephMC

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:cheers:
now that I am nice and toasty, I'll finish my thought. I was talking about transactional interactions, which is every interaction to a certain degree. In certain situations for certain people, your tertiary function combined with you dominant function maybe more rewarding than freely expressing yourself. Ti/Si, in my opinion, has a substantial subjective and objective value (more so objective, but in general has a very positive connotation). Therefore, I just ran with it. It worked, and I thought it was right.

My point is about Jeffster comment, which I greatly appreciate. Fi/Ni may have equivalent value in your environment, feeling is less abrasive than thinking in general, as your more natural Fi/Se. Therefore the sacrifice to your tertiary function didn't make transaction sense..... that's all.

Yeah, I think that makes sense. I actually started a thread on this once. There were some pretty good responses. Tertiary Temptation or Tertiary Relief
 

pv255

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Fi/Ni may have equivalent value in your environment, feeling is less abrasive than thinking in general, as your more natural Fi/Se.
:huh:
I didnt say this correctly. Fi/Se may have more value in your environment than Fi/Ni.
:blush:
 

pv255

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I've been strong-armed, by the deceivingly violent Steph, into rewriting my previous post in layman's terms. :imok:

Why do some people overuse their tertiary function? And why can loops/traps occur?
My first thought is, why do we interact at all? In general, we interact with each other to receive a desired response. I think that there are many types of responses. Desirable responses are preconceived, and there is a range of acceptable and unacceptable responses. For instance, if you tell someone you are sad, possible positive responses are empathy, advice, or a compliment. Possible negative responses are teasing, changing the subject, or an insult. Interactions are transactional like that.

If someone says something that came from using their top two functions and receives negative feedback, they may try using their first and third function. If their first and third functions produce positive responses, they may keep using it. The substitution happens naturally. Therefore you may think it is normal and arent aware you are even doing it. Prolonged exposure to this situation may even convince you that using your first and third functions is right and using your second function is wrong. So there is your loop.

Imagine my situation for a moment. A little Ti/Ne kid may make the observation that a baseball and basketball dropped at the same time from the same height hit the ground at the same time. After a few more observations the kid forms a theory :happy2: and is very happy with himself. He shares this thought with an adult and is expecting praise for his creative endeavors and reciprocated curiosity, but the all-knowing adult already knows about gravity. The all-knowing adult may even try to show their superiority by regurgitating the genius of someone else and demeaning your innovated thought :cry:. And all the other little kids don't care to know about gravity until the all-knowing adult gives them a grade for it. (if someone says newton was an intj...... i will stick steph on you. newton is an intp to the max.)

In school they teach you 1+1=2. A Ti/Ne kid would think, "wtf are these shapes and why do they follow that pattern? :huh:". All the other kids got it so the Ti/Ne kid must be stupid. The switch to Ti/Si just memorizes the pattern and moves on.... So on and so forth until something different happens. How long could that take?

That was a simplistic example, but do you see how Ti/Ne can get suppressed and Ti/Si get acceptable results? Other types may have similar responses instead of opposite ones, or even suppressed tertiary functions. Therefore not everyone will experience this, and other people may have a supportive person in their lives.
 

StephMC

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I've been strong-armed, by the deceivingly violent Steph, into rewriting my previous post in layman's terms. :imok:

Why do some people overuse their tertiary function? And why can loops/traps occur?
My first thought is, why do we interact at all? In general, we interact with each other to receive a desired response. I think that there are many types of responses. Desirable responses are preconceived, and that there is a range of acceptable and unacceptable responses. For instance, if you tell someone you are sad, possible positive responses are empathy, advice, or a compliment. Possible negative responses are teasing, changing the subject, or an insult. Interactions are transactional like that.

If someone says something that came from using their top two functions and receives negative feedback, they may try using their first and third function. If their first and third functions produce positive responses, they may keep using it. The substitution happens naturally. Therefore you may think it is normal and arent aware you are even doing it. Prolonged exposure to this situation may even convince you that using your first and third functions is right and using your second function is wrong. So there is your loop.

Imagine my situation for a moment. A little Ti/Ne kid may make the observation that a baseball and basketball dropped at the same time from the same height hit the ground at the same time. After a few more observations the kid forms a theory :happy2: and is very happy with himself. He shares this thought with an adult and is expecting praise for his creative endeavors and reciprocated curiosity, but the all-knowing adult already knows about gravity. The all-knowing adult may even try to show their superiority by regurgitating the genius of someone else and demeaning your innovated thought :cry:. And all the other little kids don't care to know about gravity until the all-knowing adult gives them a grade for it.

In school they teach you 1+1=2. A Ti/Ne kid would think, "wtf are these shapes and why do they follow that pattern? :huh:". All the other kids got it so the Ti/Ne kid must be stupid. The switch to Ti/Si just memorizes the pattern and moves on.... So on and so forth until something different happens. How long could that take?

That was a simplistic example, but do you see how Ti/Ne can get suppressed and Ti/Si get acceptable results? Other types may have similar responses instead of opposite ones, or even suppressed tertiary functions. Therefore not everyone will experience this, and other people may have a supportive person in their lives.

:happy0065:
 
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