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  1. #31
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    It makes sense, but I wouldn't call it any kind of loop. It sounds like just what you said at the beginning about not knowing yourself yet. So, I don't like using function terminology and calling it a loop like it was some sort of trap or debilitating condition, when the only condition you really had was....youth.
    Try to empathize. I have a preference. I neglected my preferences for the majority of my life thus far, because I received negative responses when sharing my highly valued thoughts. If using functions that are lower in your hierarchy takes extra energy, under indulging in your more favorable functions aggravates your psyche, and your energy level and general sentiment effects your ability to achieve, I must either have a huge pool of energy to draw from and robust psyche, or I've exhausted myself and distressed my psyche beyond normal tolerance levels. I have been judged above average at a game I am handicapped in.

    Anyways, I am not looking for a pity party, but denying the existence of a miserable situation is just arrogant and short sighted. Give it the benefit of doubt.

  2. #32
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC View Post
    Here's a good resource for examples of different loops, Jeffster
    D'oh. I forgot the link.
    Tertiary Temptation

    But yeah, youth may be a part of it. But I think extreme stress at any age can cause it to occur.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  3. #33
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post
    ummm... do all young people experience this? i dont think so. therefore my condition cannot be classified as young.
    it was a loop. i used Ti with data sourced solely from Si. And honestly, I was/am trapped. My environmental pressures disregard Ne based conclusions. I question if I would ever build the confidence level to break free if I wasn't high successful using Ti/Si and highly mobile due to monetary accomplishments.
    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post
    Try to empathize. I have a preference. I neglected my preferences for the majority of my life thus far, because I received negative responses when sharing my highly valued thoughts. If using functions that are lower in your hierarchy takes extra energy, under indulging in your more favorable functions aggravates your psyche, and your energy level and general sentiment effects your ability to achieve, I must either have a huge pool of energy to draw from and robust psyche, or I've exhausted myself and distressed my psyche beyond normal tolerance levels. I have been judged above average at a game I am handicapped in.

    Anyways, I am not looking for a pity party, but denying the existence of a miserable situation is just arrogant and short sighted. Give it the benefit of doubt.
    Forgive me if it seemed I was trying to downgrade your experiences. Maybe not all young people experience what you described, but yes, a TON of people do. It sounds extremely common to focus on what family or other people tell you is what you should pursue, and college and the "corporate ladder" are very common things for people to hold up with that kind of importance. If there's more to the story that you didn't include, that could be different, but everything you described sounds very normal and not like any kind of mental abnormality.

    You speak of exhaustion, but I think the focus you place on defining everything by theoretical functions is exhausting in itself. But if that is therapeutic for you, I'm not trying to denigrate something that helps you. It wouldn't help me, and the concept of being a slave to theoretical "loops" is not something I would ever turn myself over to, that would be far more miserable to me than a life of social pressures.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  4. #34
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Forgive me if it seemed I was trying to downgrade your experiences. Maybe not all young people experience what you described, but yes, a TON of people do. It sounds extremely common to focus on what family or other people tell you is what you should pursue, and college and the "corporate ladder" are very common things for people to hold up with that kind of importance. If there's more to the story that you didn't include, that could be different, but everything you described sounds very normal and not like any kind of mental abnormality.

    You speak of exhaustion, but I think the focus you place on defining everything by theoretical functions is exhausting in itself. But if that is therapeutic for you, I'm not trying to denigrate something that helps you. It wouldn't help me, and the concept of being a slave to theoretical "loops" is not something I would ever turn myself over to, that would be far more miserable to me than a life of social pressures.

  5. #35
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC View Post
    D'oh. I forgot the link.
    Tertiary Temptation

    But yeah, youth may be a part of it. But I think extreme stress at any age can cause it to occur.
    Reading that site made me think about why tertiary functions are used as a long term defense method. Preferred functions probably also describe the value you place on products of a function. In an economy (or any transactional interaction) you are always trying to give something you value less in exchange for something you value more..... So, yeah... nm... (feeling of overwhelming exhaustion) ... I'm just gonna drink this beer.... let me know if you want me to keep going.

  6. #36
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    now that I am nice and toasty, I'll finish my thought. I was talking about transactional interactions, which is every interaction to a certain degree. In certain situations for certain people, your tertiary function combined with you dominant function maybe more rewarding than freely expressing yourself. Ti/Si, in my opinion, has a substantial subjective and objective value (more so objective, but in general has a very positive connotation). Therefore, I just ran with it. It worked, and I thought it was right.

    My point is about Jeffster comment, which I greatly appreciate. Fi/Ni may have equivalent value in your environment, feeling is less abrasive than thinking in general, as your more natural Fi/Se. Therefore the sacrifice to your tertiary function didn't make transaction sense..... that's all.

  7. #37
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post

    now that I am nice and toasty, I'll finish my thought. I was talking about transactional interactions, which is every interaction to a certain degree. In certain situations for certain people, your tertiary function combined with you dominant function maybe more rewarding than freely expressing yourself. Ti/Si, in my opinion, has a substantial subjective and objective value (more so objective, but in general has a very positive connotation). Therefore, I just ran with it. It worked, and I thought it was right.

    My point is about Jeffster comment, which I greatly appreciate. Fi/Ni may have equivalent value in your environment, feeling is less abrasive than thinking in general, as your more natural Fi/Se. Therefore the sacrifice to your tertiary function didn't make transaction sense..... that's all.
    Yeah, I think that makes sense. I actually started a thread on this once. There were some pretty good responses. Tertiary Temptation or Tertiary Relief
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  8. #38
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post
    Fi/Ni may have equivalent value in your environment, feeling is less abrasive than thinking in general, as your more natural Fi/Se.

    I didnt say this correctly. Fi/Se may have more value in your environment than Fi/Ni.

  9. #39
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    I've been strong-armed, by the deceivingly violent Steph, into rewriting my previous post in layman's terms.

    Why do some people overuse their tertiary function? And why can loops/traps occur?
    My first thought is, why do we interact at all? In general, we interact with each other to receive a desired response. I think that there are many types of responses. Desirable responses are preconceived, and there is a range of acceptable and unacceptable responses. For instance, if you tell someone you are sad, possible positive responses are empathy, advice, or a compliment. Possible negative responses are teasing, changing the subject, or an insult. Interactions are transactional like that.

    If someone says something that came from using their top two functions and receives negative feedback, they may try using their first and third function. If their first and third functions produce positive responses, they may keep using it. The substitution happens naturally. Therefore you may think it is normal and arent aware you are even doing it. Prolonged exposure to this situation may even convince you that using your first and third functions is right and using your second function is wrong. So there is your loop.

    Imagine my situation for a moment. A little Ti/Ne kid may make the observation that a baseball and basketball dropped at the same time from the same height hit the ground at the same time. After a few more observations the kid forms a theory and is very happy with himself. He shares this thought with an adult and is expecting praise for his creative endeavors and reciprocated curiosity, but the all-knowing adult already knows about gravity. The all-knowing adult may even try to show their superiority by regurgitating the genius of someone else and demeaning your innovated thought . And all the other little kids don't care to know about gravity until the all-knowing adult gives them a grade for it. (if someone says newton was an intj...... i will stick steph on you. newton is an intp to the max.)

    In school they teach you 1+1=2. A Ti/Ne kid would think, "wtf are these shapes and why do they follow that pattern? ". All the other kids got it so the Ti/Ne kid must be stupid. The switch to Ti/Si just memorizes the pattern and moves on.... So on and so forth until something different happens. How long could that take?

    That was a simplistic example, but do you see how Ti/Ne can get suppressed and Ti/Si get acceptable results? Other types may have similar responses instead of opposite ones, or even suppressed tertiary functions. Therefore not everyone will experience this, and other people may have a supportive person in their lives.

  10. #40
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post
    I've been strong-armed, by the deceivingly violent Steph, into rewriting my previous post in layman's terms.

    Why do some people overuse their tertiary function? And why can loops/traps occur?
    My first thought is, why do we interact at all? In general, we interact with each other to receive a desired response. I think that there are many types of responses. Desirable responses are preconceived, and that there is a range of acceptable and unacceptable responses. For instance, if you tell someone you are sad, possible positive responses are empathy, advice, or a compliment. Possible negative responses are teasing, changing the subject, or an insult. Interactions are transactional like that.

    If someone says something that came from using their top two functions and receives negative feedback, they may try using their first and third function. If their first and third functions produce positive responses, they may keep using it. The substitution happens naturally. Therefore you may think it is normal and arent aware you are even doing it. Prolonged exposure to this situation may even convince you that using your first and third functions is right and using your second function is wrong. So there is your loop.

    Imagine my situation for a moment. A little Ti/Ne kid may make the observation that a baseball and basketball dropped at the same time from the same height hit the ground at the same time. After a few more observations the kid forms a theory and is very happy with himself. He shares this thought with an adult and is expecting praise for his creative endeavors and reciprocated curiosity, but the all-knowing adult already knows about gravity. The all-knowing adult may even try to show their superiority by regurgitating the genius of someone else and demeaning your innovated thought . And all the other little kids don't care to know about gravity until the all-knowing adult gives them a grade for it.

    In school they teach you 1+1=2. A Ti/Ne kid would think, "wtf are these shapes and why do they follow that pattern? ". All the other kids got it so the Ti/Ne kid must be stupid. The switch to Ti/Si just memorizes the pattern and moves on.... So on and so forth until something different happens. How long could that take?

    That was a simplistic example, but do you see how Ti/Ne can get suppressed and Ti/Si get acceptable results? Other types may have similar responses instead of opposite ones, or even suppressed tertiary functions. Therefore not everyone will experience this, and other people may have a supportive person in their lives.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

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