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  1. #31
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    To elaborate a bit, Fe is more focused on the external, so the response is more deliberate and adaptive to the environment, but that doesn't mean ''fake'', just less ''pure''. And genuine isn't always good, sometimes genuine is quite selfish.

  2. #32
    Senior Member EntangledLight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    To elaborate a bit, Fe is more focused on the external, so the response is more deliberate and adaptive to the environment, but that doesn't mean ''fake'', just less ''pure''. And genuine isn't always good, sometimes genuine is quite selfish.
    i see what you mean, but i don't think "less pure" is a good way of going about it. if you're judging one function by its specific criteria and then judging another by the former's criteria, then "less pure" would be true. but if you were to judge each by their own element, "where they exist", what's important and what's taken into account (motive, origin, etc.), then you realize that it's almost like comparing apples and oranges.

    the criteria for evaluating comes from within or that criteria projected onto the outer world--one looks for internal consistency of "sense of self" (hence the genuine-ness), the other looks for external harmony and may search for ways of achieving it.

    edit: although, a "sense of self" can be achieved from either. it just so happens that the external condition can change more easily than the internal landscape of another. i think this is why Fe get's the label of being more flexible when the flexibility/consistency of morals would fall onto the chance of context within a situation and the individual.

  3. #33
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    I don't know what type Tina Turner is, but I wouldn't use this to determine it. Tina didn't write that song, and didn't even like it or want to record it until her manager convinced her that it would be a hit.
    She recored hit because it was rentable, not becasue she liked the song esepcially. Another proof that she was a T and not a F.
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  4. #34
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Yeah, these types can be deceptively hard to tell apart. Especially ESFP men, who tend to display an almost ESTP-like swagger. They also don't really tend to display much sensitivity or emotion in my experience. They really just don't appear very "feelery" compared to other F men. ESFP and ESTP women are pretty easy to tell apart once you interact with them.

    So far, listening to their language has helped me best. Appearance and mannerisms haven't helped me much. Listen to how they make decisions. The ESFPs I know tend to do things that "feel good" and act on what's more pleasing to them. I have this ESFP guy friend that I posted on that ESFP appreciation thread about. He's really smart, and very apt at using logic. However, it was watching him make decisions that helped me type him as ESFP. He just followed whatever sounded more pleasant. He's pretty fun and spontaneous, but since he's a bar guy, you aren't really able to drag him to a wild club. In college, I would go over to hang out at his place when we were both feeling pretty content to just chill. We'd smoke hookah and put Bruce Springsteen videos on loop. For whatever reason, he's obsessed with Bruce Springsteen.

    ESTPs will have moments of following the pleasant, but when it comes down to it they tend to make pretty blunt logical statements (sometimes Te-like statements sometimes if they're feeling pushed on something -- you won't catch an ESFP doing this). When they're not as stressed, you can catch a lot of Ti statements. I have two close ESTP friends, so you'd think I could come up with examples, but.... I haven't had enough coffee yet. Maybe I'll come back later to post (read: unlikely).
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  5. #35
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    Rasofy

    I do not understand why it is that you think Fi is more genuine than Fe. What Fi types value (including genuineness) vary a lot based on what what a particular Fi person feels is best valued.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post

    To elaborate a bit, Fe is more focused on the external, so the response is more deliberate and adaptive to the environment, but that doesn't mean ''fake'', just less ''pure''. And genuine isn't always good, sometimes genuine is quite selfish

    Well I guess if you mean 'pure' in that kind of arguably childlike way of a person wanting what they want when they want and to hell with what everyone else's wants.

    Fe types often put others above themselves because they actually deeply and internally value considering others needs to be actually greater or equal to their own needs, it is usually actually 'pure' and not just some superficial external environmental consideration, it is what they actually feel based on empathy & believe based on values unless it is a case of the something like an indiviual Fe type doing some act of 'kindness' for others because of tradition or something less 'pure' like that.

    On the topic of this thread, all you really need to know about ESTP and ESFPs is that when either of these two types are around you need to grip your wallet really tightly and engage your brain completely for signs of manipulation. They are great people usually but not for the naive and gullible.

    Oh and ESFPs tend to like being performers a lot more than ESTPs.

  6. #36
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ten View Post
    Rasofy

    I do not understand why it is that you think Fi is more genuine than Fe. What Fi types value (including genuineness) vary a lot based on what what a particular Fi person feels is best valued.
    It is not a scientific term. I guess that's how it looks like to me. Orangey agreed with me, so at least I'm not alone. I could've came up with a totally technical/abstract explanation, but, imo, that's counterproductive, as it gets harder to apply the theory to reality.

    Well I guess if you mean 'pure' in that kind of arguably childlike way of a person wanting what they want when they want and to hell with what everyone else's wants.
    That would be the unhealthy side of the coin.

    Fe types often put others above themselves because they actually deeply and internally value considering others needs to be actually greater or equal to their own needs, it is usually actually 'pure' and not just some superficial external environmental consideration, it is what they actually feel based on empathy & believe based on values unless it is a case of the something like an indiviual Fe type doing some act of 'kindness' for others because of tradition or something less 'pure' like that.
    That's not false, but there's too much mbti poetic license. What is implied to be the exception is closer to being the rule. Besides, when people are kind they usually (consciously or subconsciously) expect some reciprocity .
    On the topic of this thread, all you really need to know about ESTP and ESFPs is that when either of these two types are around you need to grip your wallet really tightly and engage your brain completely for signs of manipulation. They are great people usually but not for the naive and gullible.
    True, but that doesn't help.
    Oh and ESFPs tend to like being performers a lot more than ESTPs.
    In a ''look at what I can do'' kind of way, so that's still a genuine response.

  7. #37
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Even despite that, I think ESTPs cause more shit. It all depends on what they can get away with. What the "group" actually says. Like one guy I hung around with was pretty over the top, but he could get away with it. If it was 2 am, and someone wanted to get picked up.. he'd show up and might drive right in their fucking yard and start honking. And this is where their parents lived (and were sleeping). And for some reason he'd get away with a lot of it. "Oh you!" I never knew how that worked, but it did.
    I know what you mean, it's like a weird kind of charisma. Ive seen this with other people I suspect are ESTP's.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I know what you mean, it's like a weird kind of charisma. Ive seen this with other people I suspect are ESTP's.
    Yeah surprised no one else commented. I think it's fairly common.

  9. #39
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    They often get stressed by different things.

  10. #40
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    My sister is either ESFJ or probably more likely ESFP and she drowns under the slightest drizzle of philosophical wisdom and suddenly has to dominate the conversation into a different direction, whereas an ESTP probably would not care one way or the other since they are more logical about these things and in my experience ESTPs are also less judgemental than ESFPs because ESFPs don't like things that pop culture does not praise, so if someone lacks a certain sense of coolness, that puts them at the top of the ESFP rejection list. I have also noticed TP types like ESTP tend to be rebels and not so dependant upon the institutions all the stupid multitudes follow, particularly followed by the SF types. The only types that seem to be these wizened rebels to me are the STPs, the NTPs, and the NTJs.

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