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[SP] SP's and delayed gratification

Halla74

Artisan Conquerer
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Messages
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SP's suck with delayed gratification and especially the SE doms because their hardest function to develop is Ni

Wow. For someone who recently had doubts as to what their own MBTI type was, you sure as hell are comfortable attempting to belittle the entire Artisan archetype with an inappropriate quip as to how you believe a single cognitive function defines vast amounts of human behaviors.

FAIL. :thumbdown:
 

The Great One

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Wow. For someone who recently had doubts as to what their own MBTI type was, you sure as hell are comfortable attempting to belittle the entire Artisan archetype with an inappropriate quip as to how you believe a single cognitive function defines vast amounts of human behaviors.

FAIL. :thumbdown:

Dude, I've known so many Se users in my life, and have read the descriptions online. Se users in general suck with delayed gratification, and mostly live in the present moment. Most Se users that I know and especially the ESTP types hate thinking about the future, and I'm not sure how saying this "belittles" the artisan temperament either. Many SP's are very successful, they just aren't good with delayed gratification.
 

Fleeting

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Yeah, I've definitely been in 'the grip'. It's like everything flips upside down.
 

ChocolateMoose123

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Dude, I've known so many Se users in my life, and have read the descriptions online. Se users in general suck with delayed gratification, and mostly live in the present moment. Most Se users that I know and especially the ESTP types hate thinking about the future, and I'm not sure how saying this "belittles" the artisan temperament either. Many SP's are very successful, they just aren't good with delayed gratification.

I don't see delayed gratification as an asset to anything really. My ESTP/ESFP friends just don't work like that. It's not necessary for success, I agree with you. What gets them in trouble (any SP for that matter) is not that they don't delay gratification, it's that they don't know what's important to them. Without that they cannot optimize their opportunities to greater benefit them.
 

wolfy

awsm
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I like the period before gratification, the anticipation, the planning and work. What is really frustrating is not being able to see the outcome clearly. I won't spend time on something that will not reap rewards. Maybe that is why SP tend towards short term goals or chunking longer goals.
 

Halla74

Artisan Conquerer
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Dude, I've known so many Se users in my life...

A convenient assumption on your part.
Your statement is not verifiable, and thus a worthless component of any argument - against me or anyone else. Understood?

STRIKE #1

The Great One said:
………and have read the descriptions online.

Another weak resource to base your assertions on....

STRIKE #2

The Great One said:
Se users in general suck with delayed gratification, and mostly live in the present moment.

Since you so blindly believe stereotypes, I cannot be anything short of amused at thinking how hopelessly and consistently implement those of your own MBTI type.

Maybe your recently expressed indecision about your MBTI type is a means of not embracing what you know to be your own shortcomings according to theory you blindly accept as valid and cast upom others as inescapable truths?

Perhaps you don't have a internal locus of control, and thus falsely assume no one else does either?

Or, perhaps you are a hypocrite?

The Great One said:
Most Se users that I know and especially the ESTP types hate thinking about the future...

Prove it.
You cannot.
So stop discrediting yourself needlessly.

The Great One said:
…and I'm not sure how saying this "belittles" the artisan temperament either...

Saying anyone "sucks" at anything is belittling.
Is that clear enough for you - or do you need me to direct you to www.dictionary.com?

The Great One said:
Many SP's are very successful, they just aren't good with delayed gratification.

You are not qualified to make remarks about entire groups of people.

What gives you the authority or credibility to assume you are entitled to judging others?

NOTHING.

You are misguided in your beliefs that cursory knowledge of anything empowers you to understand human behavior, let alone cast limiting your beliefs about the capabilities of others, and worst of all poisoning the minds and beliefs of others with your misinformed opinons.

STRIKE #3 = YOU'RE OUT!!!

I like the period before gratification, the anticipation, the planning and work. What is really frustrating is not being able to see the outcome clearly. I won't spend time on something that will not reap rewards. Maybe that is why SP tend towards short term goals or chunking longer goals.

EXCELLENT POST. :solidarity:
 

Giggly

No moss growing on me
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I like the period before gratification, the anticipation, the planning and work. What is really frustrating is not being able to see the outcome clearly. I won't spend time on something that will not reap rewards. Maybe that is why SP tend towards short term goals or chunking longer goals.

I like this too.
 

The Great One

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[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]

Why are you so offended by my statement? I'm not saying that Se users (SP's) can't be future oriented, I am saying that they usually are not unless they develop Ni. Just look at the description of Se for God's sake from keys2cognition.com.

Se - Extroverted Sensing
Extraverted Sensing occurs when we become aware of what is in the physical world in rich detail. We may be drawn to act on what we experience to get an immediate result. We notice relevant facts and occurrences in a sea of data and experiences, learning all the facts we can about the immediate context or area of focus and what goes on in that context. An active seeking of more and more input to get the whole picture may occur until all sources of input have been exhausted or something else captures our attention. Extraverted Sensing is operating when we freely follow exciting physical impulses or instincts as they come up and enjoy the thrill of action in the present moment. A oneness with the physical world and a total absorption may exist as we move, touch, and sense what is around us. The process involves instantly reading cues to see how far we can go in a situation and still get the impact we want or respond to the situation with presence.
Next let us look at Kiersey's SP temperament (http://personalitycafe.com/sps-temperament-forum-creators/15184-keirseys-sp-artisans.html).....

Keirsey’s SP “Artisans”
David Keirsey explains the temperaments at great length, but his descriptions can get long-winded and confusing. His SP “Artisan” temperament can be summarized thus:

Communication: Concrete
You talk about people, things, and the general here and now.
Implementation: Utilitarian
You favor practicality and what works over the human aspect and social approval.
Character: Artisan
You are concerned with the real world and what pays off, but not so much with why and how.

Language: Harmonic
You speak lightly and pleasantly.
Referential: Indicative
You refer to things in a very direct, basic, to-the-point manner.
Syntactical: Descriptive
You speak in concretely illustrative terms.
Rhetorical: Heterodox
You explain your views from a fresh, new perspective.

Intellect: Tactical
Your strength lies in optimizing your immediate environment; improvising.
Directive Role: Operator (xSTP)
Your goals tend to be expedient and project-oriented; you are more authoritative.
Expressive Role: Promoter (ESTP)
You are the ultimate persuader; advertising, politics – you name it.
Reserved Role: Crafter (ISTP)
You are equipment- and action-oriented, quietly mastering technique-related skills.
Informative Role: Entertainer (xSFP)
Your goals tend to be more creative and artistic; you are extremely spontaneous.
Expressive Role: Performer (ESFP)
You are more people-oriented in your improvisation; you shine when putting on a show.
Reserved Role: Composer (ISFP)
You are more of the artistic type, with a great eye for aesthetics and beauty.

Interest
Education: Artcraft
You prefer to learn about hands-on subjects: drawing, woodshop, etc.
Preoccupation: Technique
You focus on perfecting your method at certain things: playing an instrument, a sport, etc.
Vocation: Equipment
You are happiest when working with machines, instruments, and anything you can operate.

Orientation
Present: Hedonism
When thinking about the moment, you feel that what is pleasurable is good.

Future: Optimism
You aren’t concerned with anything too far ahead and face each new moment with confidence.

Past: Cynicism
You tend not to find patterns in the past; you view life as risky and entirely a matter of chance.
Place: Here
You like to be at the center of things, in the midst of the action.
Time: Now
You always seize the day and feel there is no time like the present.

Self-Image
Self-Esteem: Artistic
You like yourself most when you see yourself as creative in your improvisation; graceful, fluid.
Self-Respect: Audacious
You respect yourself most when you and others see you as bold, daring, and adventurous.
Self-Confidence: Adaptable
You feel the most confident when you are able to adapt in changing circumstances.

Value
Being: Excited
You love adventure and hate boredom.
Trusting: Impulse
You go with your first instinct; impulsiveness makes you feel alive.
Yearning: Impact
You ultimately want to have great social impact; you want to feel potent, statement-making.
Seeking: Stimulation
You are always looking for ways to arouse your senses; variety is the spice of your life.
Prizing: Generosity
You derive great pleasure from giving to others.
Aspiring: Virtuoso
You dream of becoming an ace in your field, to achieve technical mastery.

Social Role
Mating: Playmate
In relationships, you seek to lighten up your partner and want to give pleasure and excitement.
Parenting: Liberator
As a parent, you want your kids to have freedom above all else.
Leading: Negotiator
In leadership positions, you are the ultimate negotiator and troubleshooter.

From Please Understand Me II, by David Keirsey.

Finally sir, if you are not yet convinced, allow us to look at personality page at the estp weaknesses description (source: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTP_rel.html)....

ESTP Weaknesses

Not naturally in tune with what others are feeling
Not naturally good at expressing feelings and emotions
May inadvertantly hurt others with insensitive language
May be very good with money, but highly risky with it as well
Living in the present, they're not usually good long-range planners
May fall into the habit of ignoring conflict, rather than solving it
Don't naturally make lifelong commitments - they take things one day at a time
Prone to get bored easily
More likely than other type to leave relationships quickly when they get bored
Likely to enjoy lavishing their loved ones with big gifts (both a strength and a weakness)

Are you convinced yet or do you need more convincing?
 

Halla74

Artisan Conquerer
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Why are you so offended by my statement?

You haven't lived long enough to offend me, let's get that clear up front.

I'm not saying that Se users (SP's) can't be future oriented,

Yes you did.
Stop being mouthy, and then back peddaling.
Please.
Take accountability for your own words, or remain silent.

I am saying that they usually are not unless they develop Ni.

"Ni" isn't a cure for anything, including hemmhorroids.
You are trying to talk shit, quote unsubstantiated theory of which you have limited understanding at best, and then come forth proclaiming expertise.
Puke.

Just look at the description of Se for God's sake from
Random URL said:
blah blah....
.

Fuck that description.
If you base your understanding of any human being on it, let alone an entire classification of them, you are more misinformed than I initially imagined, which is sad.


How about you pay attention to real life, and real people, and stop trying to quote the works of others in order to attempt substantiating your own mastery of a subject beyond any human being's comprehension? How about that? Can you dig it? Think you are capable of it?

Finally sir,

You are ill equipped to try and be a wise ass with me, neophyte.

if you are not yet convinced, allow us to look at personality page at the estp weaknesses description (source: http://www.personalitypage.com/html/ESTP_rel.html)....

That page doesn't prove a goddamn thing, nor do your ramblings here.
In your case, less is more.

Are you convinced yet or do you need more convincing?

I'm convinced you are out of your league.
Go pack a lunch and bring some friends if you wish to try again.
 

Elfboy

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No, no, no, he's not ENFP. He handles critisism too well; like water off a duck's back with no signs of distress. And no Te.

He probably just doesn't fully appreciate the idiosyncrasies of an Fe-dom (yet).

ENFPs can handle criticism well too.
 

Elfboy

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Take a look at these slides...

type6.jpg


type7.jpg

sorry, but these slides are rather stereotypical
 
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Mann
I have been thinking for the last few years about what I will do, but I just can't stand to plan my life out and have all of the possibilities cut to shreds by a choice I made in the past. So as wolfy said, chunking seems to be my way too. I tend to find more short term skills to learn and see where it goes rather than to build a life around a central pillar.
 

The Great One

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[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]

You have provided zero evidence to support your argument, as opposed to me whom has given you several pieces of evidence for my belief. Your debating skills are sub par. I refuse to continue to argue with a fool. Come back when you can give me evidence for your theory.
 

Halla74

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Halla74

You have provided zero evidence to support your argument...

I made no argument; I stated a simple truth that is known to all people with an IQ above 70 and who have enough life experience (regardless of their age) to know that generalizations about specific groups of people rarely prove valid, especially when uttered by someone like you - who has admitted a lack of self understanding, and who attempts to wield partial elements of the works of others as a cohesive and indisputable truth.

Your inflated sense of confidence and bloated ego is typical of poorly versed amateurs and impresses no one.


The Great One said:
...As opposed to me whom has given you several pieces of evidence for my belief.

For your information, providing several pieces of information in an effort to prove a bullshit theory doesn't accomplish a damn thing - except proving that you are not only ignorant, but also stubborn.

The Great One said:
Your debating skills are sub par.

I've made you my bitch in front of God and country.
You can't even think for yourself, so you have no idea what a debate is.
You piss and moan like a spoiled child and expect to be made a member of MENSA.
Get a life.

The Great One said:
I refuse to continue to argue with a fool. Come back when you can give me evidence for your theory.

Awwww, the little baby who has no life and thinks he's better than everybody else called me a bad name.
Boo Hoo Hoo, how will I ever recover from this horrible day?
Your adherence to ignorance has kept you a slave to your past traumas, and your efforts to try and overcome them by establishing a false sense of self confidence via attempts to belittle others does not shield you from your past, but only prolongs the overall limitations that your past inflicts onto your development.

Your thoughts, views, and beliefs disgust me.

This conversation is over.
Go cry to your Mommy now.
 

The Great One

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[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]

So in your opinion, this the mbti theory is a bullshit theory full of sweeping generalizations and nonsense huh? Then why the fuck are you on an mbti site? That makes no logical sense at all. Also, my observations run more general to specific anyway. The variables in each personality can be changed to a certain degree when each type develops different cognitive functions. Nothing is completely set in stone. Basically what I believe that we have here is an S vs. N debate: the sensor will see the details while the intuitive will see the general picture.
 

Jaguar

Active member
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May 5, 2007
Messages
20,647
[MENTION=6109]Halla74[/MENTION]
So in your opinion, this the mbti theory is a bullshit theory full of sweeping generalizations and nonsense huh? Then why the fuck are you on an mbti site?

This is not an "MBTI site," nor is it a recruitment site for sheep. READ:

Ivy said:
As I usually say when this comes up, we try to be a site where typology can be investigated and critiqued, not just swallowed wholesale. Which is why we don't delete posts that are critical of MBTI. We welcome skeptics; I am one myself.
 

The Great One

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[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION]

I would love to debate you on this, but apparently I can not and I have been asked to stop by the higher ups. I tried to PM you this, and not make it public, but your profile has it set so I can't PM you. So I'm just telling you plainly on the forums.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
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[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION]

I would love to debate you on this, but apparently I can not and I have been asked to stop by the higher ups. .

Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about. Debate is fine here as long as no insults or trolling (etc) are involved, and to the best of my knowledge you haven't been told anything recently about anything at all.

Of course if you're unable to debate without resorting to insults, that is an issue.
 
Last edited:

Red Herring

Superwoman
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I would love to debate you on this, but apparently I can not and I have been asked to stop by the higher ups. I tried to PM you this, and not make it public, but your profile has it set so I can't PM you. So I'm just telling you plainly on the forums.

Ehm, there seems to be a misunderstanding. There was a fight between you and another member. I asked the other member to step away from the fight and he did. Then you mentioned that member to pick up the convo again. So I contacted you and recommended (i.e. politely asked) to leave it at that and not provoke a continuation of the fight. That is neither censorship nor an order from the higher-ups but simply low level deescalation. Nobody said you can't discuss typology.
 
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