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  1. #11
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    Blackcat,

    Your avatar is interesting. Why did you choose that avatar in particular? I hope you feel less isolated now. Feeling isolated is such a painful thing to feel. It sounds good that you are getting back in touch with your family. I hope that is going well and is a nourishing experience for you. Thinking about what you've said so far and trying to understand. I think you've provided a lot of insight but it's taking me time to process what you've told me without trying to first fit it into these pre-existing slots.
    It was actually chosen for me in the valentines day avatar challenge (someone is randomly chosen of the opposite sex to give you an avatar), and it fits pretty well actually.

    It's okay getting back in touch with my family, a lot of me is doing it as an experiment. I don't actually have much faith in very many people, especially people in my family. I get much more nourishment out of being alone and doing my own thing or talking to one of my few close friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    So it sounds like you feel you turned inward more due to feeling isolated/rejected in the environment you grew up in? You became much more driven to understand the reasons behind your actions/personality to help explain why you felt isolated? If you hadn't felt so isolated/rejected it seems you believe you wouldn't have been in an FiNi loop? There would be less confusion about your identity.
    I don't honestly know how things would have been different, I would be living a totally different life though that's for sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    How do you think it is you know these things? Do you think it is a psychic power or is that you just read people very well? Similar to how a person that is a genius at mechanical things might in burst of insight understand how to fix or make something mechanical. It isn't magical but may to others seem that way. Do you find that you need more experiences to help refine this ability? How long does it take you to form these gut reactions? Do you find that the length of time is dependent on prior experiences with people that seem similar to this person?
    I think it is somewhat dependent on my previous experiences, there are some people that I just don't understand period until I'm around them for a while. Then I can identify what they do... and what other similar people do. It is like what you're describing with the burst of insight! I don't feel like other people really do it, so I don't really know whether I'm psychic or just... something. lol. I also have no idea how I know these things outside of just being observant, and in how I've tried to understand myself due to feeling different I guess I naturally apply that same lens to other people when I understand them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    Interesting perspective on cheating. It seems in fitting with the "right this moment" SP way of relating I've read about. Because if you seem to use what you feel this moment to moderate your behavior than it seems if you wake up tomorrow and want to cheat on your partner you think it is time to move on. So you aren't projecting yourself into the past or future as in thinking of how you share a history or how you want to grow old with this person etc. It just is right now. Am I understanding that correctly?
    No, I actually do not think of those things at all, the past or future. But I probably should more often, that's one thing I learned from my past relationship. That I need to look to the past a lot more, I do look to the future but not too blatantly, I just get a feeling about it. But again, not so extensive, I could have never possibly predicted what would have happened. I probably could have if I wasn't so caught up in stuff, I'm normally really good at analyzing stuff like that in relationships and compatibilities between people, but I didn't learn to apply that lens to me until it happened to me the hard way.

    My thinking also opposed that. A few months into things when shit was starting to get bad, had I asked myself if I could see myself growing old with her I would have said "hell no" pretty much immediately. But I didn't see that coming, and I held on hoping maybe it would return to how it was initially (how it SHOULD have been all along in my mind). Had I looked at her experiences and her past, I would have known much better, but I was too present focused to really see past infatuation. And I always will ask myself "will I get tired of this? Would I want to grow old with this?" or in the case of friends "can I see myself wanting to hang out with them over doing something else by myself?" (which the answer is usually no lol, to either one of the quotes).
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    How do you perceive your mortality? Is it something you just don't think about? But as you get older isn't it inescapable to think of death and aging? What causes you to think about death and aging?
    I think about it when it comes up in life. Like when my grandpa feel and hit his head at 80 and the ambulance had to come get him to take him to the hospital. I think about not seeing him again and all the good times. Things like that help me prepare for the inevitable. I dnt really think about it much though in every day life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    It's really challenging for me to understand how an SP might think about these things. I'd imagine an SP just wouldn't really think about their past or even their future much. It'd be like you just are what you are right now. But does that also mean you take for granted that what you were isn't what you are now? Or do you think that you've always pretty much been the same person you are right now?
    There are parts of me that havnt changed since I was younger. I have become alot more knowledgable, I have become alot more driven. School bored me, work and life though gives me challenges. I have always loved to learn, I started trying to program when I was really young. I would take thing apart to see how they worked. None of that has changed, I still have a huge interest in figuring things out and learning. I have always been very physically active and still am to this day. I either have to be doing something or figuring out something. Those are my 2 biggest modes of operation and they have never changed.

    That isn't really possible because it seems unavoidable that you'd have new experiences which change your understanding of yourself and life which changes your perspective. Or is it that you are this certain identity or way of thinking and that is

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    your perspective which forms your reality so that one is like a ball fit into a groove always on this same track regardless of the twists or turns? As an NF I think of my perspective as flawed but all I'll ever have. I try to understand as many perspectives as possible and gain new information/insights to help me expand my understanding (and help me better empathize with others) so I'm not who I was yesterday. I'm definitely not the person I was a year ago. And I think I'll always be changing because I really crave paradigm shifts and new ways of perceiving life. How do you respond when you felt certain you understood a situation only to find out later that you didn't? Has this never happened to you? Do you tend to put a lot of trust in what your gut tells you about situations? Do you think how you responded as an eight year old is more or less how you respond now?
    I dont think I have hit any drastic paradigm shifts. I mean, I am always learning and understanding, but my drives I think will always be the same. The routes I take is based on experience, but I still operate very similiar to the way I always have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    Do you tend to think that people don't change? Is someone who is convicted of a violent crime always someone capable of committing the same ruthless act of violence and the purpose of prison is to create a punishment that forces them to control their violent tendencies? Or can a person's perspective and how they relate to life on a deeper level be changed to where they no longer have a gut response of violence to the same situation they may have before?
    I think people who arent themselves growing up will change as they grow up and become indpendent. People who are who they are, will continue to be who they are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    I guess these are a lot of questions to answer. :P I'm just very curious as an NF how SPs perceive life.
    I percieve life as constant stream of choices that affect where you end up in life. Sometimes you have to make wise choices at key points in your life, sometimes you can just pick something out of the air and live with it easily. Its all dependent on where you want to go and what you want to do in life.


    I dont do long drawn out plans or paths. Right now, in a year I want to buy a house. Thats as far forward as I think right now. I put money into savings, etc. I may right down a goal for 5 years for now. But I dont really follow it as if that is my path, its just kinda like a direction I want to go. I may track it, I may not. I dont feel like a failure if I reach it or not. I just keep pushing in the direction I want to go. I look back to learn, not to re-live.
    Im out, its been fun

  3. #13
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Do you think this sort-of eventuality and not being able to control it so you'll go with the flow philosophy carries over to other areas of your life?

    Sure.

    Or is death the only aspect of life you find to be an inevitability?

    No. I think life in itself is an eventuality. In the sense that you can only follow your own choices. That's the path you take and you play the hand you are dealt to the best of your ability.

    Do you desire at all living as long as possible?

    No.

    Do you ever consider changing the way you currently live to help you live to an old age? Would you cut out alcohol and meat if you found out it would help extend your life by five years?

    No. I would much rather have a life of selective moderation. I indulge when I want too and cut back when I need too. I don't like the idea of self-sacrifice for the sake of it. However, postponing a somewhat empty experience for a much more rewarding one is easily done. It may not be easy for an outsider to see the difference in my choices but I know the differences myself. That's all that matters.

    I guess my curiosity is that you seem so copacetic with your eventual death that you wouldn't really be concerned about maintaining your health rigorously through lifestyle changes etc.?

    Not so. I want to enjoy my life fully. That means being in a state of physical health that allows me the minimum of limitations.

    I guess that's the curious thing . . . understanding how you interact with the you from the past and you now in your mind. How does the change occur though between who you were then and who you are now. Did you always sort-of have a general sense as to what you believed in and thought and how you interacted with the world? You've expressed a similar feeling to several other SPs of thinking people can change but it just isn't likely because it takes so much effort. So were you always fundamentally the person you are now? Or did you put effort into changing? I'm sorry if you've made yourself clear and I'm just not understanding.

    I put effort into changing because my life circumstances prevented me from living a healthy life as I was brought into this world. I had to adapt my personality and behavior to be functional. Everyone is aware of my past issues with bipolar (blah, blah). I had to change certain behaviors that came naturally to myself in order to survive because those were not working. Period.

    Without that experience, I don't know what kind of person I would be. I remember what kind of person I was before that experience and I was a person who was extremely comfortable in my limited world. I didn't challenge my way of thinking. I had my opinions and that was that. Before I was diagnosed and the onset set in, I remember taking no sympathy or pity for any mental illness. I was under the impression that they weren't trying hard enough and they were weak. You know, I still think that about a lot of people who go through most any kind of hardship. I think most people give up too easily. That didn't change. What did change is my overall impression of hardships in general and what it takes for a person to overcome them. It takes strength and fucking crazy determination. You can't be on the fence about whatever you are fighting against. You have to take the lead. You probably are going to fail initially but you'll get it eventually. So I have a "tough love" sort of approach to problems now. Where as then, I just didn't give a shit. I'd blow you off. Don't talk to me about your issues. I don't care. Now, I listen. I honestly care. In such a way that I'm not going to let anyone off the hook easily because when I get that person who's talking my ear off about some extremely personal shit and they barely know me - I know that person is hurting. That can be a lonely feeling. So I'm going to call that person out to take action. It's up to them to do the rest.

    Basically, I would not have "changed" if my circumstances did not force me to make a choice. I believe this goes for everyone. People do not change drastically unless faced with some sort of trauma where life puts them at a crossroads. Choose or lose. A lot of people make the easy choice to stay on the same destructive path. They do it because it is familiar and comfortable and they may not have a decent support system to keep reminding them that there is another option.

    So the gut reactions you had as a six year old are just as solid as they are now?

    No.

    How did you develop such an implicit trust in your gut?

    Through experience. Putting myself in situations that pushed me past my comfort zone.

    Do you think you are born with a sort-of knowledge or instinct about these things and this is your gut?

    Yes. I think everyone is born with that knowledge. Being able to know when and how to listen to that is what takes skill.

    Has your gut ever led you in the wrong direction?

    No. Ignoring it has.

    What is a gut reaction like for you?

    It is an overwhelming feeling. It is like trying to move a compass needle from north to south when you are facing north and wanting to go south. No matter how hard you shake it, it's telling you the direction you need to go.

    An example would be your gut telling you something about someone only to find out later it was a cultural difference. To me the gut reads small behavioral cues and processes new information based on prior experience. This can mean misunderstanding someone if you haven't interacted much with their personality type or have a cultural background very different from your own.

    Yes. This is understandable. Personally, there is a "wait and see" aspect to my gut reactions that prevents this sort of thing from happening. If my gut tells me something is off with someone I will, under no circumstances, put myself out there. This person becomes someone that I observe and watch closely. It is a passive way of judging. You let them speak for themselves. Stand back, listen, watch and people will always show you who they truly are.

    I think by "gut reaction of violence" I mean that if you think of life as a struggle where everyone is out to get you than you respond to others very reactively. That's one example of it. I think people assume a lot about the world and in changing those assumptions they change and their reactions change.

    I get that, but people who think this way usually don't change their way of thinking. It's a very self-revolving, selfish way of thinking. Someone was out to get ME. Someone wanted to hurt ME and I couldn't help but react. Whether they know it or not, they are placing the responsibility for their reactions on others. People like this see provocation as a justification of reaction. And they see provocation in whatever they choose. They are defensive but hardly ever admit it. They are inept at self-evaluation of their actions and therefore are stuck in a cycle of perpetual acting out. It is rare that these people "see the light" on their own. They just feel too justified. Too proud and righteous in their behavior. The first step to changing oneself is being humbled.

    Everyone's been through some shit and you just have to recognize that everyone suffers and if you think you are special - get in line. Find something, do something that humbles you. It makes you a better person. Then start talking about your troubles and your reactions. If you've been physically abused, volunteer at a sexual abuse hotline/shelter. If you've been neglected, feed the homeless. I know it sounds trite but it opens you up to life outside your own door. Makes you realize you aren't alone and maybe you had it bad, but you didn't have it the worst. Bottom line is you can't change without letting go of anger. Gotta stop playing the 'who's-to-blame' game. It really doesn't matter anyway.

    Interesting experience with your ex-boss. It sounds like it was stressful for everyone involved and unpleasant. I mean also on like the level that it's difficult I think when we want to put our faith and trust in a person to have changed and they end up proving otherwise. But perhaps as an SP your response is very different than this.

    Oh yeah. It sucks when you put yourself out there and it goes nowhere. That's where the gut instinct comes in (should I trust it?) and sometimes it's just life to make mistakes. You do the best you can but it is what it is.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  4. #14
    Senior Member Pinker85's Avatar
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    Blackcat,

    Hmm. Interesting. Why don't you have faith in very many people? From some of your past comments it seems you've had experiences where people betrayed your trust. How does this tie into or affect your trust in your gut reactions?

    It sounds like you are looking for patterns and seeing where they fit into your existing framework. So if you see a new shape and it seems similar to the shapes within category X you say that this shape shares enough characteristics to fit into category X. When presented with an entirely new shape you study it to see how it might fit with the existing categories. But in a way all this is happening without your being aware of what you are doing. This is pretty much how I operate just it is much more deliberate and thought out for me. I may be projecting. If this isn't like what you experience please let me know.

    I guess I find these gut reactions so fascinating because it's a very now focused thing (and a very large part in how it seems SPs interact and make sense of the world around them) but it must have ties to the past and obviously the choices you make in the present based on these gut reactions sets you on a certain course for the future.

    Poki,

    It's interesting that SPs seem to focus on the positive in the relationship/past when someone close to them dies. It seems less mournful and more celebratory of the life they lived and good times shared. I find that really beautiful.

    I noticed that you list you are an INFP now?

    That seems like quite the paradigm shift. I guess I will hold off asking more questions until I understand what caused the change . . .

    MDP2525,

    Interesting. Tough love. I always associate this with Doctor Phil. :P I think the reasons for why anyone is dealing with issues (and I truly think everyone has issues) are pretty complicated. I agree it takes effort to change.

    So did the gut reactions you had prior to changing seem about the same as they are now?

    What was your "aha" moment where you knew the way you had been thinking needed to change?

    In all fairness I disagree with you about "all people being born with this knowledge" because I'd say I tend to really lack the ability to read people with my gut. It's truly that my brain is not wired to be able to do what comes so naturally to other people. You are right that people tend to put effort into changing when they need to. I lacked the ability to read people as a child so I developed a strong desire to understand people. I definitely understand what I feel so as a young child I would think everyone else felt what I felt. It still takes a lot of effort to maintain not thinking like this. Sometimes I've felt that people can sense this underlying brain wiring and they take it as me wanting to impose my thinking on them in a dogmatic way -- when really my desire is the exact opposite. It reminds me that there is often so much I'm unaware of going on with people. I have to understand your past, thoughts, way you think about life to have any chance in hell at discerning what your intentions towards me actually are. I relate to survival being a motivator for change.

    I've noticed this "wait and see" way of dealing with suspicious people from two other ISTP males. Interesting.

    I really agree that for me what has been vital has been letting go of anger towards others and myself. I'm very glad to hear you are in a healthier place.

  5. #15
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    *waits for an ES_P to respond*
    Thinkist: not optimist nor pessimist. I am primarily competent in the enneagram.
    SX 9w1, SP 5w6, SP 3w4 | Split with the first two
    Ti-Se-Si-Ni-Te-Fi-Ne-Fe. I'm always questioning this, particularly the Si.
    Big 5/Global5/SLOAN: RCUEX

  6. #16
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Sorry, I didn't see this until a while ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    Noon,

    If you don't mind sharing, what was the experience? How long did this contemplating death last? How exactly did you think about death? I mean was it like you thought about yourself and it was a visual experience (imagining yourself dying) or more philosophical? Did you experience fear? Panic? I'm curious what your interaction with mortality was.
    I'd PM it if you really care to know, but I prefer not to say anything about it in public.

    Would you explain the Anne Rice quote? Do you think we're fated to be certain ways? Born and set on a course to be a certain way? Like destiny?
    It's the difference between 'being' (temperament) and 'doing' (actions and accumulated attachments) that I have in mind when I read that quote.

    I don't believe anyone is fated to do certain things, but I do imagine that most people are rooted enough in a particular temperament that there is something passively fundamental about them which never changes at the abstract level... even if it may mature or regress over time in its concrete expression.

    Does realizing you were wrong make you question whether assumptions you've been making are inaccurate? Does thinking about this cause you to want to challenge those assumptions?
    In my case, retrospection is practically instant after even a mild paradigm shift.

    But the issue is that there are so many interpretive angles to most things and so many factors with potential to influence the selection (or even recognition!) of those interpretations, that I would have to be detached from everything if I wanted to be as accurate as possible. I've been forced to challenge, shift, and rewrite enough assumptions that several times I went through stages of no longer making any. But that kind of thinking, while simpler and I guess arguably more accurate overall, I found to be majorly lacking.

    I think the best thing I can do is expect to be at least somewhat wrong when I settle on any belief. Then when I am wrong... mourn for a bit and adapt?

  7. #17
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinker85 View Post
    Blackcat,

    Hmm. Interesting. Why don't you have faith in very many people? From some of your past comments it seems you've had experiences where people betrayed your trust. How does this tie into or affect your trust in your gut reactions?
    This may be somewhat of a rushed response as I don't have all that much time.

    It all ties in with the isolation thing. The faith in people thing is more on a conceptual level I think; people will still treat people like human beings but when it comes to anything beyond the bare basic stuff no one will care. When you find the rare person who DOES care... they typically have a billion people trying to be their friend or they are apathetic like me. I do really care about people... and almost everyone that I meet and start talking to tries to get close. They end up telling me everything about themselves... yet don't want to help me or listen to me. The girls friendzone. It's like people put me in a very specific box in their minds, it's a bit teasing. They still try to be "normal" but let themselves loosen up a bit and seem to be more comfortable with being who they really are. I feel like I don't really get the degree of closeness that I really desire. But I guess you can never have your cake and eat it. I rarely find people who don't just "zone" me out; honestly a lot of the reason I'm on the net is to find kindred spirits. I've found a decent bit on here. And a few of my RL friends are like that. Some friends I have do genuinely care but I don't understand my values... which is honestly even harder to deal with.

    I'd say they affect my initial reactions by making me "test" people a bit and try to get to know them before doing anything that would really reveal who I am... this is one of the few points in life where I feel the need to restrain myself.

    Despite being an RCUEI (E preference key word), I do care about people. I do want to connect. I just may either have a cold or apathetic-in-a-silly way (irony/sarcasm etc) demeanor that seems to make people not get to know me. I put this down when I see that the person is worth it. This is all unconscious pretty much. I had no idea why I couldn't connect or be normal until I started really watching myself when I got to college.

    It sounds like you are looking for patterns and seeing where they fit into your existing framework. So if you see a new shape and it seems similar to the shapes within category X you say that this shape shares enough characteristics to fit into category X. When presented with an entirely new shape you study it to see how it might fit with the existing categories. But in a way all this is happening without your being aware of what you are doing. This is pretty much how I operate just it is much more deliberate and thought out for me. I may be projecting. If this isn't like what you experience please let me know.
    This IS exactly what I do actually. Except that encompasses everything, and not in just a literal way. Cool!

    I guess I find these gut reactions so fascinating because it's a very now focused thing (and a very large part in how it seems SPs interact and make sense of the world around them) but it must have ties to the past and obviously the choices you make in the present based on these gut reactions sets you on a certain course for the future.
    Indeed. Keep in mind a lot of my thinking is Ni based, but manifesting through Se. Ni cannot exist without Se and vice versa. You seem to be getting it down...
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

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