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  1. #31
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I'm reading the page at http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/keirsey-analysis.html, where it quotes Keirsey saying,
    "Myers' E-I scale is badly flawed because she inherited Jung's error of confusing extraversion with observation (S) and introversion with introspection (N). And so to make the E-I distinction useful at all, we must define the two concepts, not in terms of mental focus or interest, but in terms of social address or social attitude."

    So for Keirsey, the E-I distinction defines a "social address or social attitude."

    Then why does the author of that webpage say the following a few paragraphs later? -
    Clearly, when Keirsey describes an ISTP he uses terms that are much more 'extraverted', and when he describes an INTP he uses terms that are much more 'introverted'. By comparison, Isabel Briggs-Myers description of ISTP is written in terms of the introverted Thinking dominant function... In fact, Isabel Briggs-Myers description is in some ways opposed to Keirsey's: whereas he describes them [the ISTP] as action-driven, she states that they are "great believers in economy of effort". Keirsey resolves this difference by stating that Isabel Briggs-Myers "inherited Jung's confusion between Sensing and Extraversion", but in this respect her writings are completely consistent, and she portrays ISTPs as introverts. Keirsey portrays ISTPs in an extravert fashion because his system of temperament is different to Jungian typology - and the use of the same system of letters to describe both is unfortunate because of the confusion it both causes, and hides.
    But this criticism of Keirsey simply redefines his I-E distinction in terms of mental attitudes, whereas his is defined in terms of social address or social attitudes. Therefore, it stands as a straw-dog criticism of Keirsey's analysis of the ISTP temperament.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #32
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    I see something else in that long quote I'd like to address:
    In fact, Isabel Briggs-Myers description is in some ways opposed to Keirsey's: whereas he describes them [the ISTP] as action-driven, she states that they are "great believers in economy of effort".
    These two ideas are not dichotomous. It is clearly possible to be action-driven, or action-oriented, or even to be an action hero running around in a comic book, and still use economy of effort.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    I have a theory that ISXPs are not xi and se. But rather Xi and Si. The reason why is because Se is far too sporadic, se is far too concerned with moving from one place to another in an similar way like Ne. ISxPs tend to do best when focusing on one task at a time, gathering information while still staying passive requiring little or no movement. The reason is because Si is more focused and "stable" version of Se based on the descriptions. ISXP's are very good at noticing little details in their environment and have acute sensory perceptions. Because of this ISXP's have a tendancy to focus on details in their environment much differently than dom Se types. Although there seems to be a notion of "se" in all of SP's due to Se's desire for freedom and spontaneity, something is definitely missing in the description of ISXP's according to Myers Briggs.

    http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/keirsey-analysis.html
    check it out.
    Ok, I've checked out the page, as you can tell from my previous posts. I can't quite make your OP and the link mesh together. Because according to that page, there is something wrong with Keirsey describing the ISTP as extraverted. I agree with that page that it all hinges on one's definition of "extraverted."

    You write that the ISXP is Si because of "gathering information while still staying passive requiring little or no movement." I doubt that any ISXP would agree that they are like frogs sitting on lily pads waiting for a fly to pass by. And I am skeptical that "gathering information" can be connected to "staying passive requiring little or no movement" through the attitude of introversion, whether that attitude is considered cognitive (Myers) or social (Keirsey), a distinction made at that page.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
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    Okay here we have an ISTP telling ISxPs that their experiences are irrelevant (I think their reports of their experiences are extremely relevant, and I tend to rely on report of experience as well as theory because you can't just go by pure theory...and jixmixfix how do you not know that some of the supposed ISxPs you've observed aren't actually ISxJs???) ...plus not responding to either definition of Se or Si posted by Jung...so you don't want personal experience...and you don't want the original theory...so what exactly do you want? For people to just agree with you?

  5. #35
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    ISTP and ISFP are considred as Si-dom in Socionic. But that's in part why I don't relate at all in socionic, I mean, no socionic type seem to fit with me when I read the descriptions.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  6. #36
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Okay here we have an ISTP telling ISxPs that their experiences are irrelevant (I think their reports of their experiences are extremely relevant, and I tend to rely on report of experience as well as theory because you can't just go by pure theory...and jixmixfix how do you not know that some of the supposed ISxPs you've observed aren't actually ISxJs???) ...plus not responding to either definition of Se or Si posted by Jung...so you don't want personal experience...and you don't want the original theory...so what exactly do you want? For people to just agree with you?
    Let me tell you about my ISFP wife. I guarantee she is ISFP, although she has her J moments, blah blah. Nobody is a pure type. But she is ISFP. Before we were married she took me to 130 mph in a Jetta 2.5. Later she explained that she always wanted to be a race car driver.

    There is a crucial element missing from Jixmixfix's hypothesis: the difference between INTENSITY of experience, which turns a singular experience toward more depth, and the EXTENSITY of experience which requires a variety of more shallow experiences.

    THAT is the distinction everybody is groping towards on this thread.

    I'll leave it as an assignment to determine which one of those two distinctions of attitudes relates to Si and which relates to Se.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #37
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    lol...that story about your wife is funny...when I was younger I used to always drive super fast to the point of flipping one car over and back onto its wheels and doing a 360 degree circle in the middle of the freeway with another...both times I was speeding well in excess of the speeding limit...and somehow magically both times I just drove away with no injury or anything...my flipped car went right back on its tires and the one that did a 360 literally went back to forward again...I used to listen to music blasting while I did this, so it was like this whole experience for me...I have no idea why I thought I had Ne...

    I think maybe jixmixfix likes the one version of Si that sounds most like Ti...I think he might be confusing the Ti weighing of variables with Si...just my opinion...however, I also know he's into Socionics.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    lol...that story about your wife is funny...when I was younger I used to always drive super fast to the point of flipping one car over and back onto its wheels and doing a 360 degree circle in the middle of the freeway with another...both times I was speeding well in excess of the speeding limit...and somehow magically both times I just drove away with no injury or anything...my flipped car went right back on its tires and the one that did a 360 literally went back to forward again...I used to listen to music blasting while I did this, so it was like this whole experience for me...I have no idea why I thought I had Ne...
    That's the aspect of intensity I was referring to. My wife also loves to have the car radio blasting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I think maybe jixmixfix likes the one version of Si that sounds most like Ti...I think he might be confusing the Ti weighing of variables with Si...just my opinion...however, I also know he's into Socionics.
    "Weighing of variables" returns us back to cognition. Intensity or extensity is not cognition. My point was that he confuses everything into a big jumble. I'm giving the principle of the issue that brings back some order. It's not to be found at that webpage. As far as webpages go, it's pretty average.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Okay here we have an ISTP telling ISxPs that their experiences are irrelevant (I think their reports of their experiences are extremely relevant, and I tend to rely on report of experience as well as theory because you can't just go by pure theory...and jixmixfix how do you not know that some of the supposed ISxPs you've observed aren't actually ISxJs???) ...plus not responding to either definition of Se or Si posted by Jung...so you don't want personal experience...and you don't want the original theory...so what exactly do you want? For people to just agree with you?
    that's not what I said at all learn to read and stop accusing people of shit. The ISTPs here are not giving me a decent response other than OMG UR ISTJ or OMG I don't agree because It's not true so obviously I respond negatively.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jixmixfix View Post
    that's not what I said at all learn to read and stop accusing people of shit.
    You called speed and randominity morons. I'm just trying to figure out why you're so upset about what they said, and you did say that you basically didn't care about their sharing of personal experience.

    EDIT:

    Okay u mad they said you might be ISTJ. I see.

    Carry on.

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