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  1. #61
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    ah, so you're saying that an NP might consider an SP to be stupid because they don't as often enjoy the kind of verbal sparring and intellectual bounciness that we do. conversely, SPs might consider NPs wimpy because they don't partake in the kinds of physical competitions that SPs seem to be found of.
    OMG no. No, no, no.
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  2. #62
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    To talk about intelligence is like to talk about music and sex. It is useless. Us SPs don't talk about this, we practice. Interesting to see that peoples who talk the most about music, like music critics, are the less musically gifted, same correlation for sex and intelligence.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

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  3. #63
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    ah, so you're saying that an NP might consider an SP to be stupid because they don't as often enjoy the kind of verbal sparring and intellectual bounciness that we do. conversely, SPs might consider NPs wimpy because they don't partake in the kinds of physical competitions that SPs seem to be found of.
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  4. #64
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    OMG no. No, no, no.
    the first no sufficed
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  5. #65
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    the first no sufficed
    Well since most of us are not fresh out of the "oh I'm on the debate team and all the football players make fun of me, they're all just stupid SP's!" mentality, the answer to your post is going to be definitely, NO!

    no, no, no.

    Now go back to band practice and talk to them instead.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
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    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

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  6. #66
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by penny89 View Post
    Yes, it may not make sense. I just linked them up in myself (lack of verbal skills and Se). I realize that Se use may not cause my lack of verbal skills.

    That said. Se is very action oriented. So I thought people who want to have drawn out verbal debates/discussions not geared towards action as an end, might see my lack of interest as stupidity.
    Se doms seem to have this stereotype much more than other users who have Se as a secondary or tertiary. Se is definitely an action-oriented function. Also, ESTP/ESFP strengths are in people, motivations. They are savvy as hell. It's very subtle but impressive when you know what they're doing. That takes a lot of aptitude.

    Lastly, my posts are not irrelevant. SPs use Se and I'm talking about how other types' perceptions of Se affect their perceptions of SP intelligence (which is, shockingly, the thread title). And if you think that wasn't what I was talking about, that's certainly what MDP's question was about... so I'm guessing your beef is not that I'm off-topic, but that you don't actually care. Nice.
    Orangey, you may want to be more specific in who you are calling out in your posts to avoid confusion. I too, did not know who this was directed at either. Personally, I think Elfboy is young and inexperienced and doesn't mean any harm in the less than stellar approach to his questioning but I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt as being genuinely interested in SP's and how they function than collectively roll our eyes at him.

    So Elfboy look past your personal definitions of intelligence and you'll see that SP's are varied, talented, intelligent and don't fit into neat little boxes. Just like all people, really.
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  7. #67
    All Natural! All Good!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    an ESTP who majored in philosophy? damn, philosophy is too N even for me and it's my first function
    I'm an ISFP and one of my majors is philosophy too. I'm beginning to think this is not related to N, but P if anything. IMO it's more important to be ok with open-endedness and 'no right answer' when doing philosophy, as compared to comfort with abstractions. Ethics, for example, is fairly concrete and there are plenty of examples. That said, the ESTP, you, and I are all P so that doesn't help :P. It's probably just a personal interest thing.

    And yes, it's pointless, except that it's interesting (to me, anyway) :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    To talk about intelligence is like to talk about music and sex. It is useless. Us SPs don't talk about this, we practice. Interesting to see that peoples who talk the most about music, like music critics, are the less musically gifted, same correlation for sex and intelligence.
    I have noticed that they sometimes have a stronger technical understanding, but are not great musicians themselves. *shrug*
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    it seems to me that SPs tend to either be extremely stupid, or brilliantly intelligent but that few fall in the middle. would you (especially SPs) agree that this is the general trend, or does it just appear this way?
    Are you saying SPs tend towards idiocy or idiot savance? I do not see this trend, but I certainly see your posting trend. Perhaps your people goggles are what need clearing up rather than the SP intelligence scale.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  9. #69
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    an ESTP who majored in philosophy? damn, philosophy is too N even for me and it's my first function
    Philosophy is all about Ti - i.e. how seemingly unrelated concepts within this grand scheme we call life fit together, and what judgments we can thus make from that logical structure. So, take the question of "what is a good life?" First, we have to question what constitutes "good," why this falls within a category called "good," what compares to "good," and so on and so forth. You may think that this is very Ne-heavy stuff. Which it is, but...

    People viewing the world through Se are damn good at noticing the details, and making instant connections between those details and consequences. So, while those viewing with Ne might get hung up on whether a certain situation constitutes enough of an esoteric factor to fall within the "good" category, those viewing with Se will be able to quickly point out the consequences of a given factor. That little hidden reservoir of Ni lurking in the subconscious gives xSTPs both a curiosity about the philosophical aspects of life, and a set of logical chains that can be applied in a way that those viewing with Ne won't instantaneously have available.

    If this weren't so, we wouldn't have the book titled Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

    If there's any difference, it's this - both extraverted perception types are sensory in nature, it's just in how those senses are handled. Se learns through the external manipulation of those senses, while Ne learns through internal manipulation. Se learns by doing things outside, while Ne learns by doing things inside.

    NPs may conflict with SPs, because they talk past each other. SPs will often take time to set up a clear and full picture of the idea they are trying to convey, which bores the NP, because he/she had already created his/her working mental image, and regards the other information as superfluous, while it is absolutely essential for the SP. Meanwhile, the NP will give a limited amount of information, with the idea that the listener will be able to fill in the rest mentally, something that the SP finds baffling. They need the surrounding concrete detail to anchor their perception of the information correctly, because with too much ambiguity, the tertiary or inferior Ni view will create something incomprehensible as a working model.

    As a result, the SP may find the NP confusing, and then conceited when the NP expresses frustration at the communication breakdown. At the same time, the NP might find the SP "stupid," because the SP doesn't manipulate limited information in the same way that the NP does, requiring lengthy description and elementary information, something the NP may associate with immaturity.

    I think that what you might not be realizing here is that most xNTPs and xSTPs are great friends with one another after getting to know each other. Once the differences in communication are reconciled and accepted, the similarity in the way Ti handles the different types of sensory information provides a ton of fun for both parties, as it is this presentation of unexpected information in a way that is still understandable that drives humor and mirth. Get a normally cerebral male INTP around his xSTP buddies, and it'll be no time before he's guffawing at the dick and fart jokes, and telling his own. Likewise, get an active, if not academic ESTP together with an xNTP work partner, and it will be a fascinating conversation, as the concreteness of the work, and the ideas it naturally generates within the xNTP, engage both parties in a way that is endlessly fascinating.

    I can't describe the xSFP-xNFP relationship, but I'd imagine it hinges on the ability of the xNFP to evoke unique states of feeling within the xSFP, and the xSFPs expert skill at expressing states of feeling that the xNFP though was ineffable or indescribable on some level, and the mutual admiration and respect that this creates.

    On the other hand, in my experience, going across in both perceiving and judging preferences doesn't work very well - the two just have entirely different priorities and interests, and have trouble expressing them in a way that engages the other person. xNTPs may see what xSFPs do as slightly pretentious, think of them as a bit oversensitive, and express exasperation at the "silly" (read: unimportant to them) things that xSFPs find to be immensely important. xSFPs may not understand why xNTPs have to overanalyze everything, and why xNTPs pay little heed to dampening the emotional impact of their statements. xSTPs may wonder why xNFPs don't seem to be in on the joke that is life, why they take such offense at their jokes/actions made in good fun, why they're so obsessed with "saving the world" instead of enjoying life, no matter how it comes, why they read hidden motivations into every action beyond "because it seemed like a good idea at the time," and why they have that annoying habit of falling in love with an image of what that person could be. xNFPs may have the problem of seeing an xSTP as a project, finding perpetual frustration in trying to civilize that person, and yet unable to pull away and give in. xNFPs also may not accept that there truly is no malice in the outrageous and offensive things an xSTP may joke about. Finally, xNFPs can be incredibly frustrated with the "what you see is what you get" nature of xSTPs, and that there is often little in the way of personality that an xSTP who you're friends with won't demonstrate willingly.

  10. #70
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Meanwhile, the NP will give a limited amount of information, with the idea that the listener will be able to fill in the rest mentally . .
    NP's give a limited amount of info?

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