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  1. #31
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YourLocalJesus View Post
    Being independent is really important for thinking kids. My father used to do that tactic with me and it got me to listen.
    And to let him know that you get proud if he gets a B or above, and to let him know that you get sad when he gets bad grades etc. Eventually I think things will turn out OK. Just don't do the punishing part.
    And, just as a warning for you, that may take a while. My grades were terrible from 7th-9th grades. The reason I wound up deciding to do better was that I scored a 2100/2400 on my PSAT (and something like 9x percentile) and as a result, got a ridiculous amount of mail from colleges. In looking through some of it, I realized I might want to go to some of those places, and in order to do so, I needed to bring my grades up a bit. (They're now A's and B's).
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  2. #32
    Member sinnamon's Avatar
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    I'm noting all of the responses, especially from the ISTPs. I appreciate the younger ISTPs' point-of-views; they help me peak inside that teen brain for bits I may have forgotten (turns out I haven't forgotten much). But some of these points are a little unrealistic. For instance, if there is bad behavior, there are consequences. I don't get irrate or anything; it's just business. Also, he is 12 & has impulse control issues (like all 12 year olds). If you can't police your computer time, I will do that for you.

    I have tried to talk to him. I've always talked to my children as if they were intelligent human beings, even when they were toddlers (yeah I "goo goo'd" at them too, for all of you about to make fun of the vulcan INTP mom). I can't get a real response from him ever, but that won't keep me from trying some more.

    No, he may not want to go to an Ivy League college, but he does know he wants to be an engineer of some kind. Actually, he has said he wants to go to MIT.

    I like the comments about being independent. I am going to work a bit on the idea of how to make him involved in his own decisions with regard to doing his school work and keeping his grades up. I already asked him to choose 3 classes to commit to making A's & the rest could be B's. He seemed to appreciate that, but of course he loses focus before the end of the road. I think I may ask him what he thinks is fair as far as play versus school work. I may ask him to be involved in his own consequences and rewards. How much work do you think you should do every night? How much computer time do you think is fair? What do you think is a fair reward for good grades? What do you think is a fair consequence for a bad grade? etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
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  3. #33
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinnamon View Post
    But some of these points are a little unrealistic. For instance, if there is bad behavior, there are consequences. I don't get irrate or anything; it's just business.
    I don't disagree with you, but the reaction we typically have to those consequences is the reverse of what you intend.

    Also, he is 12 & has impulse control issues (like all 12 year olds). If you can't police your computer time, I will do that for you.
    Not that he should spend all day on the computer, but don't draw a correleation between that and his grades. When I really was uninterested in school, it didn't matter what I was actually doing, it just mattered that it wasn't schoolwork. Taking away the computer, or something like that, I would expect will just mean he will go spend his time doing something else other than schoolwork.
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  4. #34
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sinnamon View Post
    But some of these points are a little unrealistic. For instance, if there is bad behavior, there are consequences. I don't get irrate or anything; it's just business.
    That will likely be the same reaction he has. He'll understand there will be a consequence and simply accept it. I think this will end up as just two people acting out their prescribed roles with nothing changing.

    I really don't see the logic behind accepting that punishment won't work but doing it anyway.

  5. #35
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    I wouldn't worry about it, all gifted children drift into mediocrity after a while.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  6. #36
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Does it work to have him do his schoolwork, eat dinner, and then pretty much let him have free time until he needs to get ready for bed? Usually if I tell my guys no computer until after homework is done and there isn't an unreasonable amount of homework, they try to get the work done so they can play. If there is a lot of homework, does it work to break it into smaller segments and offer some breaks and rewards like 30 minutes of free time, etc?

    I was always horrible about doing homework. Part of it was laziness and lack of motivation, part of it was being overwhelmed and not having anyone to help keep me on track.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #37
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    The ISTP is led by Introverted Thinking which is a form of Introverted Judgment. This means that his decision making must derive from within. In order to be motivated, he must discover reasons on his own endeavor deem his task important. It is not relevant whether or not he will be rewarded or punished for doing so, whether or not others will be pleased, etc. As those factors are external to his inner mindset in relation to the task. He must find the task in itself worthwhile, until he does, at best he will drag his feet at it. If you say that he will be punished for not performing, he will make some effort to perform as he obviously does not want to be punished, but he will not have the motivation to carry through as the task in itself leaves him uninspired.

    External exhortations are anathema to Introverted Judgment. The more you force him to go by an external standard the more resistance you will get. This isnt necessarily because he sees something wrong with the particular stipulation, but because he sees something wrong with the very idea of being externally, as opposed to internally guided. He will pull inwards just so he can have an opportunity to make his own decisions. Even if it is obvious that the external decision is very fitting. Unless the decision came from within, to the ISTP, it is simply useless. It is highly likely that when you stop fussing over him spending hours on the computer and the TV, he will invest much less time in those activities.


    Do not try to force your views and values onto him. If your ISTP son is to deem his schoolwork important, he must arrive at such conclusion only on his own thinking. The best you can do is simply offer ideas for him to analyze. Inform, but do not direct. Any attempt to inculcate or force your will upon him will necessarily be met with recalcitrance for the aforementioned reasons.

    I'd say let him be for now, ease off the pressure. There you will at least stand some kind of a chance of him finding the motivation to carry on with his work. Intervene only if he puts himself by way of grave danger. It is paramount that he be granted as much autonomy as possible. ITPs would much rather have life teach them as opposed to be spoon fed, he will thank you for this when he grows older.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #38
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    I know that ISTPs need the reward to be immediate, instead of too far down the road. The more immediate, the better.

    I have just learned something in the past couple of weeks about my son (and my ISTP) husband. They are very relationship oriented. I have noticed in the past that my son will do something for me when he wants something. Not in a manipulative way. It's more like, "I understand that this is the way it works. If I want you to do something for me, I have to do something for you."

    Or if I took him to the store to get him some clothes he needed - I "did him a favor" - when we got home, he would open my car door for me. This was my reciprocated reward for doing him the favor. What I'm attempting to say, in my very typically poor INTJ way, is that they are very "favor" oriented in their thinking - at least mine are.

    You might be able to work this around in your favor - no pun intended.
    That's an interesting point that I'd never actually realized before, but it's very true for me. Maybe not in terms of favours necessarily, but the relationship thing...if I like you or I'm just pleased with you at the moment, I'll be nice to you because I want things to be equal between us. Good eye.

    Maybe that applies to all types, though.

  9. #39
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    That's an interesting point that I'd never actually realized before, but it's very true for me. Maybe not in terms of favours necessarily, but the relationship thing...if I like you or I'm just pleased with you at the moment, I'll be nice to you because I want things to be equal between us. Good eye.

    Maybe that applies to all types, though.
    Perhaps, a little. I noticed it because it's something I don't do and don't care about.

    My husband got involved in a business and was forever (read ad nauseum) telling me about how great the association with the other people was. I'm thinking, "Okay already, so what?"

    Then the other day, I asked my son - the skateboarding ISTP - if he had any desire to snowboard. He said, "No. I don't like the people." I'm thinking, "Don't like the people?! So what?! Who needs people anyway? Are you going to let other people's involvement dictate your life to you?" and on down the train tracks that went.

    It was putting those two things together, that gave rise to my theory. As I have been checking into it further, it turns out that there's a lot more to it than I at first suspected.

    When you consider that the SP is the "Influencing" type, it would only make sense that they also are affected by influence.

  10. #40
    Senior Member mcmartinez84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhinosaur View Post
    I think this is the right way to go. You have to guide him to *want* to do his work. Negative punishment doesn't work too well on ISTPs -- we resent it and push back even harder.
    Negative punishment never worked. I hated school. I hated homework. Always. In college I realized that I had to do it to get anywhere with some classes. Taking things away from me just made me hate homework even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    I don't disagree with you, but the reaction we typically have to those consequences is the reverse of what you intend.

    Not that he should spend all day on the computer, but don't draw a correleation between that and his grades. When I really was uninterested in school, it didn't matter what I was actually doing, it just mattered that it wasn't schoolwork. Taking away the computer, or something like that, I would expect will just mean he will go spend his time doing something else other than schoolwork.
    It didn't matter if something was taken away... I still hated the school work and I still did as well or as poorly as I would have with the privileges. Just gotta convince me somehow that I *need* to do the stuff or that it'll be good for me in some fundamental way.

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